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  1. #41
    jojo's Avatar
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    Re: And another...

    This is an interesting read. Maybe we should arrange a track day, diesel vs. petrol, and see who whose smiling at the end of the day.

    The petrol guys because they have just wasted most of the diesels on the track.

    The diesel guys because they are still going after 30 laps when everyone else has run out of optimax.

    Of course Amd will probably just bring their golf diesel and show us how its done. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

    joe



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  3. #42
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    Re: And another...

    [ QUOTE ]
    jojo said:
    This is an interesting read. Maybe we should arrange a track day, diesel vs. petrol, and see who whose smiling at the end of the day.

    The petrol guys because they have just wasted most of the diesels on the track.

    The diesel guys because they are still going after 30 laps when everyone else has run out of optimax.

    Of course Amd will probably just bring their golf diesel and show us how its done. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

    joe




    [/ QUOTE ]

    Speaking of trackdays,

    Anyone interested?

    Rich

  4. #43
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    Re: And another...

    [ QUOTE ]
    Irish said:
    I just think there's a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to diesels going on.

    I was driving a Revo'd Golf GTI which I think most of you agree apart from handing would keep up with a stock S3.

    I was having a blast with a Revo'd PD130 with a Milltek and there was very little in it.

    To the through and through petrol heads, have you any idea how quick 177 bhp with 330lbs of torque is!!?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not as quick as 225 bhp and 206lbft of torque as in my standard S3.

    What utter tosh, A diesel is NOT a performance engine it is a crusing engine with a limited rev range and very high gearing where all the performance is available all at once. The simple facts are in the 0-100mph and standing 1/4 km times and it is these figures that give an indication of performance not in-gear increments. After all how much torque does an F1 car have in comparison to its power output?

    Any petrol engined car driven using its rev range and gears will walk away from a diesel engined equivalent irresepective of how the diesel is driven. Also if my S3 was revo'd and fitted with a Miltek the difference would be even more pronounced.

    I just can't see why there is this continual desire to justify a diesel to be something it clearly isn't and never can be.

    Ian



  5. #44
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    Re: And another...

    Rich

    Was you thinking of arranging a trackday?, time to sort this out on the track! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif[/img]

    Joe

  6. #45
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    Re: And another...

    Why is it that diesel drivers constantly feel the need to justify the performance of diesel in comparison to the petrol alternative?

    The fundamental difference between diesel and petrol is the driving experience. The characteristics of two comparable diesel and petrol engines are completely different and therefore necessitate that they are driven differently.

    A diesel is not a 'sporty' drive - it's as simple as that.

    Yes, diesels do produce a significant amount of torque. However, the engines are rarely naturally aspirated these days (which gives sluggish throttle response with the required boost being run) and as a result of the forced induction it is very easy to ensure that all the torque arrives all at once at 2000rpm (which in most cases is not maintained at this peak for more than a few hundred rpm), creating the impression that the diesel engine is a lot more powerful than it actually is.

    The gearing on diesels is also intergalactic by petrol standards to substitute for the poor rev range (i.e. power band) and does its fair share to improve the economy. This therefore blunts the effect of all that torque.

    I would also say that my experience of the latest modern diesels would indicate that they are still miles away from equaling the smoothness and refinement of a good petrol - despite what you diesel drivers might try and say to convince the rest of us. They also sound rubbish.

    Perhaps its this constant need for owners to try and justify the choice of diesel power upon us petrol drivers that leads to a majotiy of diesel drivers (admittedly driving diesel passats/golfs) driving like absolute morons for a majority of the time (tailgating/lane hogging/dangerous overtaking etc etc)?

    The question I really want answering is that if diesels are so damn good in the first place why on earth do a majority of diesel drivers seem to feel the need to 'chip' their car in order to make it faster, and then insist on comparing their performance with a standard petrol motor??? - hardly fair is it.

    If only the diesel brigade could understand that diesel DOES NOT equal rocket-ship performance and more often than not - you literally 'get in the way'!

    oh, forgot to mention 325bhp and 'only' 260 lbft...or is that comparison not fair?






  7. #46
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    Re: And another...

    hmm.. i think bot end of the scale are going a bit TOO far now.

    There is absolutely no doubt that modern diesel engines are getting better and better, and i have to say are catching up petrol engines. For example;

    New A8. 4.0TDi, 550lb/ft torque, and does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds. this will take most cars. Now, sure 6.7 seconds is NOT FAST! BUT has anyone even stopped to consider 'in gear' acceleration?? from one speed to another in one gear, there is no way a petrol engine wouldd keep up! Just wont happen.

    For instance. My parents have a A4 2.5TDi Quattro. 180bhp, 272lb/ft. Entering dual carriageway on slip road and a golf GTi turbo triwes to overtake (modified). Now theres one of him in the car, and theres 4 of us and a boot full of luggage. The golf CANT overtake and this was upto 120mph!!!

    Secondly, gear change times are less important the faster you are going as acceleration is less.

    fact: diesels are getting quick and have come A LONG WAY in the last few years.

    Im sure someone will argue with me [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile_smoking.gif[/img]

    ps - i drive a chipped 1.8T, and will always have petrol! (in atleast on of my cars! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

  8. #47
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    Re: And another...

    [ QUOTE ]
    jojo said:
    Rich

    Was you thinking of arranging a trackday?, time to sort this out on the track! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif[/img]

    Joe

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was thinking about it. castle coombe have trackdays every month, so with enough interest may be a really good day out.
    Was thinking like June tho. May is GTi international, and april is fully booked. June will be nice weather too.

    Anyone interested see meets section

    Rich [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

  9. #48

    Re: And another...

    Have any of you looked at Audi's own performance information about the new A3s. If you compare like with like you will find they are very close. It's silly to compare a A3 2.0 TDI with an S3 in the same way that it's silly to compare an A3 2.0 FSI with an S3. But if you compare a 2.0 TDI with a 2.0 FSI then

    2.0 FSI 0-62 9.1 secs top speed 132mph
    2.0 TDI 0-62 9.5 secs top speed 129mph

    I currently drive an A3 1.8T and have recently driven both the FSI and TDI for a day each. The TDI feels, much to my surprise, much more like my 1.8T. The FSI seems to have less get up and go and overtaking ability. Taking into account that, using Audi's figure for the combined cycle, 38.2mpg whereas the TDI does 50.4, then you can see why in Germany and many other European countries Audi sell more TDIs than FSIs.

    You do have to change more on the TDI and it is a make a little more noise than the FSI, but not by a lot. When I drove a S3 a year or so ago that was also noiseier than my 1.8T.

    So it seems that if you compare a modern well developed TDI with a similar FSI or other petrol engined car there is very little to choose between them. I don't think there is a need for diesel engine drivers to justify there cars any more, the cars do it for themselves.

  10. #49

    Re: And another...

    Yak

    reference your quote:

    ..phiuh. I wonder, are there multitronics available to diesel engines? That sounds like a nice combination, has anyone tried?

    No not Multitronics, but something much much better - Audi's DSG. Fully automatic in ordinary or sport mode, manual change using either centre stick or steering wheel padels. Overwite ordinary or sport mode for any single or mutilpe changes and then return to automatic after 30secs. The best of all worlds in one gearbox. Have a look at the TT forum to see what some of their drivers think of the DSG.

    And YES I have tried one - all day last Sunday. Brilliant !

    Dave

  11. #50
    yak
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    Re: And another...

    Dave, yea I have driven TDI. As you said, both have their good sides. Too bad we can't combine them [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

    David, you can't compare DSG & Multitronic. With DSG you'll anyway run out of rev range, like with normal gears. But with multitronic you could stay at the optimal rev range and have that nice torque available all the time with good mpg. That's why I was interested, but I believe multitronic had it's limitations with how much torque it could take.

    - Yak

  12. #51

    Re: And another...

    Yak

    With the DSG gearbox you never run out of rev range because the box will always change up to the next gear when you get to maximum revs for any gear even if you are in manual mode.

    From Audi's figures a car fitted with DSG gives better mpg than the same car fitted with a manual box - only by a little. But a normal automatic is usually much worse.

    The only combination of diesel and multi-tronic that Audi do is in the A4 range. 1.9 and 2.5 TDIs. This is because the DSG is designed for the transverse engine and the multi-tronic for the longitunal engine.

    I have drive an A4 with multi-tronic and whilst it works, it's strange to drive in that the revs and speeds often seem mis-matched.

    David

  13. #52
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    Re: And another...

    [ QUOTE ]
    Yak said:
    David, you can't compare DSG & Multitronic. With DSG you'll anyway run out of rev range, like with normal gears.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There he goes again!!! Knows a DSG inside out does Yak!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

  14. #53
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    Re: And another...

    [ QUOTE ]
    Yak said:
    Dave, yea I have driven TDI. As you said, both have their good sides. Too bad we can't combine them [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

    David, you can't compare DSG & Multitronic. With DSG you'll anyway run out of rev range, like with normal gears. But with multitronic you could stay at the optimal rev range and have that nice torque available all the time with good mpg. That's why I was interested, but I believe multitronic had it's limitations with how much torque it could take.

    - Yak

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Only problem with DSG is that it can not handle all that much torque. Standard cars are not a problem at all, but tuning companies are having to limit th engines torque when being chipped.

    Rich

  15. #54

    Re: And another...

    Rich

    What sort of torque limit are we talking about. Audi fit the DSG to the A3 3.2 which has 250PS and 320Nm so I assume that have built in a certain safety factor.

    Not a problem for me though as I won't be chipping the car anyway. The standard car and 120+mph on the German autobahns on the way to Austria for my holiday each year is quite fast enough for me - with NO speed cameras either !

    David

  16. #55
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    Re: And another...

    I so wish we had an autobahn, do you think there would be more deaths?

    Or would people be finally happy with the speed limits?

    DaveA3Turbo

  17. #56

    Re: And another...

    We do have autobahns, their called motorways. But the difference is we impose a silly 70mph on all motorways. In Germany their motorways only have speed limits where they are necessary for some reason and consequently most drivers obey the limits when they are imposed because they can drive faster when there is no limit.

    Another thing that helps is they put up signs banning lorries from the outside lane on 2 lane motorways and dual-carriageways for long stretches at a time thus allows the faster cars to overtake easily and not be help up by lorry 1 trying to overtake lorry 2.

    Motorways are by far the safest roads anyway.

    David

  18. #57
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    Re: And another...

    Irish, nothing wrong with being passionate about your beliefs, Yak seems to have a bee in his bonnet about diesels, you'll never change his mind. I'm still puzzled by the graphs that Yak posted for the FSI & 1.8T they seem too similar. I think the FSI is geared for economy so that might explain the dull driving experience. Yak seems to have befriended DaveA3Turbo need I say any more ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

  19. #58
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    Re: And another...

    It's up to you what tyres you chose for the car, not Audi's fault.

    BTW, just ANOTHER point where you claim something and are WRONG, the TT has had the DSG system for nearly a year now.

    And on your torque explanation re DSG, how much torque exactly are you talking about putting out from a car??

    A new M5 has 580lbs of the stuff and handles fine with an auto box??

  20. #59

    Re: And another...

    Yak

    So the FSI is the best car for your conditions in Finland. I have no intention of ever driving my car in Finland. I have no need to ever fit winter tyres. I drive in the UK and drive on holiday in France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria during the Summer.

    When I drove the TDI for a day, I covered nearly 100 miles at 80-90mph on a motorway here in the UK and my wife a I were perfectly comfortable, could talk to each other in a normal voice, listen to the radio without any problem and general enjoyed the experience.

    You will obviously never be convinced that ANY A3 other than the FSI is worth buyer, but others with different circumstances may see it differently. A friend of mine drives a 3.2 TT with a DSG gearbox and he thinks it's brilliant and would never want to go back to a manual gearbox.

    I will never want a car bigger than an A3. 2.0 litres is the sort and engine size I choice as a good compromise between power and fuel economy so the A3 2.0 TDI DSG is the RIGHT car for me.

    David

  21. #60
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    Re: And another...

    [ QUOTE ]
    David Robinson said:
    ...the DSG can change with lifting off and changes in 0.5secs....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I assume you meant with OUT lifting off.

    Regarding the time taken it's actually 25 times quicker than that!! The time is 0.02 secs [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

  22. #61

    Re: And another...

    Thanks for correction Scotty. Yes I did mean to say 'without' lifting off.

    When I get my DSG I'll have to try and time it !

    All I know is it's much much faster that I could ever manage with a manual change.

    Thanks again.

    Dave

 

 
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