Chris NottEM Tuning
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  1. #1
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    DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Well guys,

    Found this over on Audiworld. Urm wonder why they're testing a single turbo 3.2 for VW. Answers on a post card please [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    ATTENTION ALL 3.2 OWNERS!!!! HPA turbo kit for DSG: ***it's possible*** =)
    User account number (aid): 58072
    Posted by Marc3.2TT on 2005-03-17 08:22:08
    Guys,

    In follow up to this thread concerning power upgrades for the 3.2 TT with DSG, I had sent an email to Marcel Horn at HPA motorsport to enquire about the possibility of a turbo kit for the DSG.

    Well, the answer is YES!!!

    And to let you enjoy his answers as I did, here's a copy of the email I sent him with his responses in-line:


    Hi Marcel,

    I've been informed by Steve Cherry that your company has been working on a 400-HP turbo kit for the 3.2 engine in the TT with DSG transmission.

    I'm very interested in the kit, as I own a 3.2 TT myself, and have a few questions:

    1. Is the DSG transmission in the TT 3.2 rated at 350 or 450 Nm? The specs mention that it's the "DQ-350" (based on the MQ-350), which is rated at only 350 Nm (258 lb-ft). However I've heard a rumor that it might actually be the "DQ-450", which is rated at 450 Nm (332 lb-ft).
    The DSG is "officially" rated at 350Nm, but this is the same "official " rating that our 6 speed manual boxes have.

    2. Is this "rating" only enforced by the transmission's ECU (aka TCM), so that it does not allow the input shaft of presenting more torque than the rated limit (be it 350 or 450 Nm)?
    This Rating is enforced by the ECM and TCM as a conservative limiter to offer a guaranteed LONG life scenario for the tranny.

    3. Have you managed to re-program the TCM in order to remove the software limit on torque?
    Yes.

    4. What is the "weakest link" of the DSG, clutches/gears/etc?
    The only limiting factor we officially have with the DSG is that we can not currently lengthen the gears to offer a higher TOP SPEED.

    5. Have you tested the physical torque limits of the DSG (and if so, over an extended period of time?) to determine how much actual torque the clutches or weakest link can take?
    AT VW's official request, we have built the factory a few single turbo equipped DSG Golf's. VW themselves have used our kits to stress test their DSG. Over 6000miles on the Euro proving grounds have been logged at FULL THROTTLE, 5500RPM launches with no glimmer of difficulties. These cars are FT400smic trim.

    6. Finally, if you managed to re-program the TCM, have you found where the Launch Control code resides? As you must know, the LC programming was removed for US-based TT's and I'm trying to find a way to re-enable it.
    We have ENABLED and manipulated the Launch control. You can now launch at 5500RPM in all our DSG cars.

    Thanks in advance for all your answers!

    Marc, this DSG set-up is so impressive and such an engineering marvel, that we will work this summer to convert our shop cars to DSG, even for the Twin turbo's. With one clutch handling one set of gears and the second clutch the other, we are able to manipulate the oil pressure to generate the grip force required to launch the highest horse power cars. We have a DSG specific kit, with software on the shelf ready for some LUCKY owner. Once installed, a 360 Modena doesn't stand a snow balls chance in Hell!!!!

    I must be careful in reference of divulging the exact degree of testing that we have co-operatively performed with VW on the DSG, but hope to convey the sheer excitement I feel towards this set-up. The first run in the car and you will never think standard again!



    Now I don't know about you guys, but after reading this email I was just ecstatic...
    I can't wait for the kit to come out!!

    -Marc

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  3. #2
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Time to swap the 2.0tdi dsg for a 3.2 dsg I reckon!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Hmmm interesting. So if I want my DSG Tdi chipped I might need the DSG Ecu tweaked as well!

    J.

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    I was thinking more along the lines of leaving the ECU as is and letting it control it at 350 max. Surely this would just flatern off the torque curve while still getting your 190 ponies or so at 4000rpm. That would make one long flat torque curve and no DSG problems. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    VW testing for the VAG groups S3 / RS3 ?.

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    It does smell that way!

    J.

    P.S. Did your wife take home ec at school?

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Simpleton question, is the same gearbox used in the 3.2 as is in the 2.0tdi?

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Same toque limit / design just different gear ratio's I guess.

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    so if you can run a 3.2 turbo through it then why should i be worried about upgrading my little oil burner?

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Eeef,

    That was my point for this post. That infact the 350nm limit seems to be an artificial limit applied by the TCM control unit within the gearbox. The actual limit being much higher. My only question now is, if we 'chip' it to 400nm will the TCM flatten the torque curve ( cut it off at 350 ) or will it confuse it and shut the box down !.

    Either that or well have to 'chip' the TCM as well.

  11. #10
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    When speaking to forge they said they'd had no problems with their DSG car so far, but on old tiptronics they had, and in fact now had a gearbox ECU upgrade to prevent the problems.

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Did they say how many miles they had done ?.

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    erm....no [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bang.gif[/img]

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    I think the problem with the tiptronic box is it gets confused and doesn't know when to change gears, not the fact it can't handle the torque.
    The DSG does not get confused, and I think that is what Forge are taliking about when they say there are no problems.

    I have had a tuning box on and the DSG works as you would expect, in my 2.5tdi multitronic it did not behave normally, it would change gear at in appropriate times, which is obviously no good.

  15. #14
    imported_tobycruse
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    I know this will go down like a lead balloon here but why does everyone love DSG soooooooo much? On paper the 0-60 is 0.1 second of a difference and there seems to be problems with the box, so i have seen on the forum. O, and wheres the skill in using a automatic box? Im my eyes it disconnects you from the car, wheres the control? What does everyone think??? but at the end of the day, if you buying a 3.2 and thinking of putting a turbo in it.... obviously it will fly....wheres the fun in an AUTO????

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    I got a DSG because I used to love driving autos out in Australia where they are way more common than over here.

    But, with gas prices in the UK I could never live with the loss of fuel economy with an auto.

    98%+ of the time I'm just cruising around in situations where it's just not realistic (or safe) to be pushing the car hard. The remaining 2% is quiet country roads where I fancy pressing on a bit and want to have control of what gear I'm in.

    I completely agree that DSG/Auto does make it a bit less involving, but (not wishing to offend anyone here!) if your priority is having a really involving drive then an A3 probably isn't the best choice!

    To be honest, most of the time I don't want an involving drive, I just want to get home with as little effort as possible!. I don't think you can beat DSG/Auto for that!

  17. #16
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    I am now 31, and if you had told me 3 or 4 years ago I would be driving an auto I would have laughed at you.
    Since I bought a 320dAuto touring, and then an ML270cdi Auto and now an A3 DSG though I could never go back to a manual.

    Maybe it is an age thing, maybe it is because I now have a job that involves driving and sitting in traffic, whatever it is all I know is I think the DSG is the most enjoyable drive I have had so far.

    I would be interested how old you are T.Cruse? And also how long have you spent with the DSG?

  18. #17
    imported_tobycruse
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Well, im 19 and i have never used a dsg. Iv driven my dads A8 4.2..... wether that had a dsg box im not sure. I just like the idea of being in control. I completly understand about traffic, it does get very tiersome but i find its something about feeling what the car is doing..... Everyone is different, but i do believe that when you buy a car like the 3.2 A3, it is a fast and fun car and being such it is a waste to put an automatic box on it.... wheres the fun???

  19. #18
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    I will remind you of this post in another 10-15 years mate when your knees are [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif[/img] and you start to feel age creeping up on you slowly [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    As I said, if you had said to me 4 years ago I would be driving autos I would have laughed at you, but here I am getting old with no left pedal below my foot! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Same here, 32 and never thought I'd drive an "auto". Have an old V8 range rover which I share with a mate that was an auto and quite nice to drive. Then the M3 with the SMGII gearbox, seems like a good "gadget" to have and I was impressed. I still haven't driven a DSG car yet but will be on Friday.

    I think its important to say that the SMG and DSG systems are not conventional auto boxes. The SMG was a manual box with hydrolic clutch and shift and ?DSG system where as a auto box has a different gear set up and a torque converter.

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Interesting read Japper. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bravo.gif[/img]

    Medicineman, your gonna have a long week, counting the days down. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_2.gif[/img]

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    [ QUOTE ]
    I know this will go down like a lead balloon here but why does everyone love DSG soooooooo much? On paper the 0-60 is 0.1 second of a difference and there seems to be problems with the box, so i have seen on the forum. O, and wheres the skill in using a automatic box? Im my eyes it disconnects you from the car, wheres the control? What does everyone think??? but at the end of the day, if you buying a 3.2 and thinking of putting a turbo in it.... obviously it will fly....wheres the fun in an AUTO????

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, on paper it's slower, and on a track because of the extra weight it may be slower. But to an 'average' diver, which most of us are, and on the road, I can guarantee that it is faster than the manual. Check out the threads regarding traction. The ease at late breaking into tight bends, allowing you to get the nose in better would be a lot harder in the manual. The time when your stuck in a high gear when you want to pull out when a gap appears on a road your 'not' familiar with. Oh and when your trawling through rush hour traffic and 'YOUR' left foot is knack***d from constant clucth use, mine aint.

    Oh and I have two hands on the steering wheel at all times now, which on public roads must be safer.

  23. #22
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    [ QUOTE ]
    wheres the fun in an AUTO????

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If I want fun I've got a 480bhp Cobra parked in the garage.

  24. #23
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Its what you like and what you need, I still prefer the manual, but I live in the country and rarely travel in the cities in heavy traffic. I'm also considerably older than 30 too. Still prefer a manual, like to use an auto when I travel abroad on business its easy when the gear lever is the wrong side............

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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    T Cruse.

    I think your experience in an old barge A8 4.2 auto is where your appreciation of DSG falls down.

    As all the other DSGers will agree, it IS quicker in all areas than a manual - end of.

    And best of all - in auto mode you can eat your sandwiches whilst negotiating roundabouts! very messy in a manual.

  26. #25
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    [ QUOTE ]
    And best of all - in auto mode you can eat your sandwiches whilst negotiating roundabouts! very messy in a manual.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was going to say that too, but thought people might think I was joking! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

  27. #26
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity


    OMG you guys actually eat in your cars...

  28. #27
    yak
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    Re: DSG Owners - torque limit / durabillity

    Perfect reason to buy a second-hand car with manual, it's more likely fat-free! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    Anyway, even DSG being so lovely automatic, personally I think it's automatic. I don't drive that much, so I kinda enjoy sticking it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

 

 

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