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Thread: Dual vs. single mass clutch kit?

  1. #1
    Keeno's Avatar
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    Dual vs. single mass clutch kit?

    I can get a brand new LUK standard dual mass flywheel and clutch for Ł240.

    BUT

    Is the stage 1 ECS kit (lightweight single mass flywheel, 228mm clutch) worth the extra Ł90 over the LUK kit?

    Bit unsure on the ECS kit as I've been cautioned against mating a flywheel and clutch from different manufacturers...
    Cheap and Reliable is not Fast. Cheap and Fast is not Reliable. Fast and Reliable is not Cheap!

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  3. #2
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    any idea of the brand of a typical conventional flywheel? it is just a lump of metal afterall

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    Keeno's Avatar
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    That's what I thought! What's to sya that if I only replaced the clutch not the fly, I could end up with two different brands...
    Cheap and Reliable is not Fast. Cheap and Fast is not Reliable. Fast and Reliable is not Cheap!

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    Apologies if I'm stating the obvious!

    SMF are a lump of metal. DMF are two masses attached by springs to absorb torsional oscillation. If you replace a DMF with an SMF you will putting more strain on clutch plate and transmission.

    DMF are mainly there to improve 'driver comfort', but I've heard many stories of DMF to SMF conversions buggering plates & box.

    This may not apply to a petrol Audi A3 - I'm not an expert.

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    Keeno's Avatar
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    I couldn't say to be honest. I've read good things about the ECS kit in both the 10lb and 20.5lb guises. Both come with a new, bigger pressure and clutch plates.

    Having said that, I can't really afford a new 'box...
    Cheap and Reliable is not Fast. Cheap and Fast is not Reliable. Fast and Reliable is not Cheap!

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    I went for the ECS Stage 1 (G60 SM flywheel) and uprated clutch. I put320bhp and 300lbft through mine and am yet to have any problems. My brothers is the same - No issues.

    Dual mass are expensive and if you can drive properly, you wont notice the driver comfort aspect either to be honest.

    if you want OEM, then just go for OEM. If you want something a little more, for a little more, then go for the ECS kit (or something similar).

    Rich
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    kachnak's Avatar
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    Hello,
    I kill my clutch because I was stupid and start on 7000rpm in 1/4 mile race.
    Now my car is not so fast as was when I bought it.
    Sometimes I see that this clutch is slipping on 5th gear.
    So I would like replace it and looking for best solution.
    I need car every day and 90% I use it in city, but I would like go to lot of 1/4 races. I would like also remap to 260bhp next year.
    Therefore I am looking for better clutch as standard.

    Anybody know what from this two is better kit for me please?
    30-4229HF (Ł890.00)
    Sachs Performance Clutch Kit & Jabba Flywheel (1.8T 6-Speed 02M) (Ł990.00)

    Thank you
    Audi S3 1.8T 154kw 210hp APY 1999
    GET LOW, NO MATTER HOW!

  9. #8
    Andrew@A.L.D's Avatar
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    You get more vibration and chatter if you have a single mass fly
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  10. #9
    kachnak's Avatar
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    but lot off clutch manufactors make single mass flywheel so I think there must be also some plus for it.
    Audi S3 1.8T 154kw 210hp APY 1999
    GET LOW, NO MATTER HOW!

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    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Single mass is obviously lighter and less complicated than dual mass.... its a more direct way to connect the clutch to the gearbox.... problems with single mass tend to revolve around chattering from the gearbox as more vibration is transmitted through the system and you need to be careful with clutch/flywheel combos from different manufacturers as they sometimes lead to long pedals and clutches that don't engage or disengage properly... other issues revolve around drivability as mentioned... can make the clutch feel very stop/start in traffic and uprated clutches tend to be heavier at the pedal...

    The clutch setup I currently have was suggested by a guy from SeatCupra.net who has an Audi TT with over 450bhp and regularly does 1/4 mile stuff with it...

    Consists of an LuK DM flywheel, LuK clutch cover and Sachs motorsport 4 puck paddle plate... light as a feather on operation with a very very small amount of occasional judder at the last bit of take up when driving normally else when giving it some its like an anvil coming down and just bites...

    I have yet to do a full launch from it but the guy on SCN went from this setup to a SM flywheel setup and hated it... he is now running the same as me again...

    <tuffty/>
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    I run a single mass,and its not soft and very light and grips well off the line,but i can confirm as said above you do get gearbox chatter at idle with load on engine ie ac,but thats it and at higher speeds on heavy throttle you do get light cabin vibration.

    I bought the car with this in,if it pops i probably will look to go back to DM depending on the cost,but its not noticeable.
    James
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    OK. Thank you boys. So I will use my dual mass flywheel and buy only sachs plate, cover and bearing.
    Sachs SRE Performance SRE clutch cover + SRE Performance clutch disc at a special rate.** - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts (€670.00)

    One more question. When will by my clutch taken out, how I can see if my dual mass flywheel need replace or not?
    Is it possible do some test? Or it is K.O., if I will feel very big vibrations?

    tufftybloke: do you have serial number of your LUK flywheel?
    Last edited by kachnak; 7th November 2010 at 20:46.
    Audi S3 1.8T 154kw 210hp APY 1999
    GET LOW, NO MATTER HOW!

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    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Sure thats the right one? page suggests its for an A3... some A3 clutches are smaller... S3 clutch is 240mm...

    The clutch plate I have is this one...
    Rigid clutch disc with sintered metal plates - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts

    As for the flywheel, its the std part for the S3, I don't have a part number to hand I am afraid... I just went into GSF and said I wanted a DM flywheel for my S3 and they gave me one... the clutch cover I have is part of a std LuK clutch too...

    If you buy a clutch, make sure its designed for the std/OEM DM flywheel as some manufacturers supply different clutches for OEM DM flywheels and their own single mass ones...

    One other thing to remember is that DM flywheels typically come with rigid clutch plates while single mass typically use sprung clutch plates..

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  15. #14
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    I got my solid flywheel from TTV Racing and they ask weather you want a it to fit a LUK or a Sachs clutch
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    I sent question to sachs if it can be fitted to my S3. And there is written that this clutch kit is suitable for stock flywheel and bearing.
    Last comment in your 4 puck paddle plate is that disc is not recommended for street cars. Do you use your car only for race? Or is possible use this plate on streets as standard plate?
    I read somewhere that with 4 puck paddle plate is not possible continuously start.
    Audi S3 1.8T 154kw 210hp APY 1999
    GET LOW, NO MATTER HOW!

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    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kachnak View Post
    I sent question to sachs if it can be fitted to my S3. And there is written that this clutch kit is suitable for stock flywheel and bearing.
    Last comment in your 4 puck paddle plate is that disc is not recommended for street cars. Do you use your car only for race? Or is possible use this plate on streets as standard plate?
    I read somewhere that with 4 puck paddle plate is not possible continuously start.
    I have no probs with it at all.... of course its not been in long so no idea how long it will last, time will tell of course but I have no probs using mine in everyday traffic including commuter traffic...

    Its not advise to hold the car on the clutch from what I have heard as it will wear more etc but as long as you don't ride the clutch it should be fine...

    My car is a daily runner that I use to drive to work and back with a combination of country roads, steepish hills and cross city commuter stop/start driving... the clutch is light in operation but does grab very well (I have stalled the car a couple of times pulling away a bit quick from junctions... not recommended lol...)

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  18. #17
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    Dude i would love to know where you can get hold of a Dual mass fly and clutch for Ł240 where ever i look its Ł300 + for the fly alone

    cheers

  19. #18
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    I went to GSF....

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  20. #19
    kachnak's Avatar
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    It think daveeeeee reply to first massage in this thread.

    Today I recieve answer from sachs that SRE organic kit, what I pastle here, is suitable for APY S3, so after pay-day in my factory I will order one :-)
    Audi S3 1.8T 154kw 210hp APY 1999
    GET LOW, NO MATTER HOW!

  21. #20
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    I went from DM to SM on my A3 at clutch change time.... I didn't notice any difference in the drive-ability at all, and performance was definitely better.

    I will be going SM on my S3 when the clutch needs changing.
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  22. #21
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    If you do welly get the flywheel from TTV you may have seen mine but order it soon as you can as they can take time to make it.
    RIP S3dave/David Marshall stickers now available
    FOR SALE
    Sparco Torino 2 sport seats, None resonated Milltek exhaust,
    Adjustable FPR from 1-5 bar, 2 sets of Unused ARP 3/8 2000 rod bolts, relentless 200 cell cat pipe, Std AGU Crankshaft. Ported & Reconditioned Cylinder head service.

  23. #22
    kachnak's Avatar
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    Sachs SRE 520+Nm clutch is home after new year will be fitted to car with stock Dual Mass flywheel and new sachs bearing.

    Clutch Kit: ZF SACHS Performance clutch - Power Clutch - Art# 000827 999980 - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts

    Last edited by kachnak; 20th December 2010 at 19:19.
    Audi S3 1.8T 154kw 210hp APY 1999
    GET LOW, NO MATTER HOW!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichA3Turbo View Post
    I went for the ECS Stage 1 (G60 SM flywheel) and uprated clutch. I put320bhp and 300lbft through mine and am yet to have any problems. My brothers is the same - No issues.

    Dual mass are expensive and if you can drive properly, you wont notice the driver comfort aspect either to be honest.

    if you want OEM, then just go for OEM. If you want something a little more, for a little more, then go for the ECS kit (or something similar).

    Rich
    Morning boys jus been looking into this DMF to SMF I've done it an its like the biting point is on the floor an I can't bleed it up, does anyone no if I have to change the slave cylinder cuz the pushrods not long enough ?
    A3 1.8t AUG ,
    k03s, ported exhaust
    Weitec coilovers , SMF lightened an balanced
    Just for now
    " fmic " forge 007p"remap

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    Anybody knows something about this kit? AUDI A3 S3 1.8 T SOLID MASS FLYWHEEL CLUTCH KIT AMK APY 210 BHP QUATTRO 99-03 | eBay

    Its really cheap kit but should i buy this one or pay twice as much and pick LUK or Sachs. Its 210hp S3 with remap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loor View Post
    Anybody knows something about this kit? AUDI A3 S3 1.8 T SOLID MASS FLYWHEEL CLUTCH KIT AMK APY 210 BHP QUATTRO 99-03 | eBay

    Its really cheap kit but should i buy this one or pay twice as much and pick LUK or Sachs. Its 210hp S3 with remap.
    I'v been looking at this kit aswell. It sounds tempting as its cheaper than the rest and comes with a 3 year- 30k mile warranty.

 

 

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