NEW ENGINE REQUIRED?

[mike s3]

HI GUYS JUST WONDERED IF SOMEONE COULD HELP ME, IVE GOT A 2002 AUDI S3 AND YESTURDAY THE ENGINE CHUCKED A ROD THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE ENGINE :-(. IS THIS A DEFINATE ENGINE CHANGE OR CAN IT BE REPAIRED? ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

THANKS GUYS

 

[jonny87]

ooooo nasty!!

imo it would so much easier and less expensive to throw a new engine in there

not even sure if it could be repaired as blocks/heads are cast, never heard of one being patched, not for road use anyway

 

[jojo]

New/Used engine mate, rods through the side of the engine means some SERIOUS damage, I wouldn't risk repairing it, much more cost effective to source a used unit and replace.

 

[martin g]

New engine dude

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDI-TT-ENGIN...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3a4bb42334

 

[badger5]

end of engine

for those reading this.. RODs guys.. fit rods if you get the chance when mapped

this is happening more and more on higher milagle older 210/225 engines which are mapped up

 

[jonny87]

why would audi/vw fit rods unable to cope with the same sort of power that the rest of the engine can handle, never really understood this, the pistons and crank are forged standard aren't they so why not the rods?

 

[1animal1]

they build there car well within certain tolerance's to ensure longevity, by mapping we are pushing them more to their limits

they also build to a budget to enable them to price the car accordingly and build it in the most simplistic manner

end result is nevertheless great but can always be improved upon because of the criteria the manufacturer has to adhere to

 

[Matt82]

and dont you think the maps themselves with overboost and spikey torque plots have a lot to answer for too

 

[badger5]

why would audi/vw fit rods unable to cope with the same sort of power that the rest of the engine can handle, never really understood this, the pistons and crank are forged standard aren't they so why not the rods?

designed to a price and to cope with 225bhp

 

[damo.h]

Hey dude i sourced this one on the bay the other day but i don't need it now thank ****.. it's out of a 2002, Bam with 72k on it. The guy will except £500... Hope this helps

 

[Broken Byzan]

To be honest we don't have the full story, it could just as easily been the common oil problem and the engine finaly caved in by throwung a rod. Not the first time i have seen it

 

[badger5]

there would be rattle from head first from oil pickup problem usually.. not just instant rod out of block
wellys rod bent suddenly on his first run after fmic fitted... its an instant thing

 

[martin g]

Im no mechanic (i say that a lot) but i am an engineer, involved in design. Id be very surprised if audi only spec'd the rods to take 225 BHP or a touch over during design. I rule of thumb for mechanical testing is usually 1.5 x the nominal load so Im finding it hard to accept the statement that its only meant to go 225.

Even european standards (think CE markings etc) will require rigorous testing and to a good level over and over normal design loadings, for safety and quality assurance.

If I was asked to guess, id say it was a little more complicated that just a remap taking the rods over their limits, but like i said, im no motor mechanic.

 

[finesse]

scary

how much to change rods to better quality ones?

 

[Matt82]

but bhp isnt the force, its the torque thatll kill em, and over standard, how much do the torque spikes go beyond audis original design?

Im no mechanic (i say that a lot) but i am an engineer, involved in design. Id be very surprised if audi only spec'd the rods to take 225 BHP or a touch over during design. I rule of thumb for mechanical testing is usually 1.5 x the nominal load so Im finding it hard to accept the statement that its only meant to go 225.

Even european standards (think CE markings etc) will require rigorous testing and to a good level over and over normal design loadings, for safety and quality assurance.

If I was asked to guess, id say it was a little more complicated that just a remap taking the rods over their limits, but like i said, im no motor mechanic.

 

[tompearson]

Im no mechanic (i say that a lot) but i am an engineer, involved in design. Id be very surprised if audi only spec'd the rods to take 225 BHP or a touch over during design. I rule of thumb for mechanical testing is usually 1.5 x the nominal load so Im finding it hard to accept the statement that its only meant to go 225.

Even european standards (think CE markings etc) will require rigorous testing and to a good level over and over normal design loadings, for safety and quality assurance.

If I was asked to guess, id say it was a little more complicated that just a remap taking the rods over their limits, but like i said, im no motor mechanic.

But the reason you do this is to ensure that the weakest items when made within the tolerances of the process that construct them and the variations in the materials used will meet the minimum criteria, probably even when some other failure or non favourable event occurs at the same time. I.e. if you looked a distribution of failure rates then you would find that very few (if any) fail at under the rated load with no other contributory factor and some may not fail until under significantly higher load. However they are still rated at the lower end of the scale. Plus whilst a rod failure is catastrophic for an engine it is not quite as significant as a plane falling out of the sky or a building falling over so the need to over engineer is massively reduced.

 

[<tuffty/>]

and dont you think the maps themselves with overboost and spikey torque plots have a lot to answer for too

Its not really the map thats the problem its the turbo... K03/4 turbos are very spiky when they spool... my GT30 doesn't spike like that... just hits requested boost and stays there....

K03/4 turbos spike as std... granted the extra boost from a remap will accentuate this but more boost is required to get the extra power a remap is designed to give...

There will be a point that more boost will not give any more power and that all it will do is produce more torque... this is where the danger lies on some remaps... this is due to the limited flow capabilities of these small turbos... contrary to popular belief, more boost does not necessarily mean more power... airflow makes power, boost is the motive force that assists airflow...

Put simply, the 'overboost' is due to the little K03/4 fast spool capability and the N75's inability to control it quickly enough... An MBC can be used in tandem with the N75 to control the spike though but then the push in the back we all love as a result of a remap would be less evident...

@mike s3... is your car remapped and if so, what map did you get?

<tuffty/>

 

[Broken Byzan]

Well until the OP decides to come back and explain properly, we are all guessing.

 

[jonny87]

designed to a price and to cope with 225bhp

yer i suppose designers dont take into consideration that ten years down the line people are going to be remapping/ramping up the power of the s3 lol

 

[s3dave]

Poor Maintenance, is the usual suspect, an engine can go at anytime mapped or not, there are 4 mini expolsions every revelution if things are not in order its gonna go bang

 

[martin g]

But the reason you do this is to ensure that the weakest items when made within the tolerances of the process that construct them and the variations in the materials used will meet the minimum criteria, probably even when some other failure or non favourable event occurs at the same time. I.e. if you looked a distribution of failure rates then you would find that very few (if any) fail at under the rated load with no other contributory factor and some may not fail until under significantly higher load. However they are still rated at the lower end of the scale. Plus whilst a rod failure is catastrophic for an engine it is not quite as significant as a plane falling out of the sky or a building falling over so the need to over engineer is massively reduced.

Take your point Tomn (i think) but 1.5 x nominal load (this is an assumption btw) is by no means 'over engineering' 2 or 3 times maybe but 1.5? thats very conservative me thinks for a high end motor marque.

 

[1animal1]

i dont think this needs to be anymore complicated than it is..... they will make the car to a set spec which will fall well within the tolerances needed so as to ensure they dont have to recall the whole lot, 1 problem in every 10000 would be a massive issue for any manufacturer

take the new shape Mini Cooper S turbo, when they made the john cooper works model which is only 20 ish bhp more, they replaced the rods, there is also talk about mapped MCS models popping rods....

they wont engineer to what somebody might do to it, they will i assume conduct various tests that enable them to get a real world idea which will have been calculated largely before testing commences

simples really, see, no more head aches

 

[<tuffty/>]

I concur....

As Bill has already suggested... high mileage cars seem to be having a problem now... I am no engineer (although I did do a bit years ago) but considering what stresses a mapped K03/4 produces on rods due to its spiky nature then its no wonder they are starting to give up the ghost...

You can see in the picture below the difference between the OEM rod and an after market uprated one...

The cylinder pressures a mapped turbo engine is capable of producing is in the 1000's of psi.... after a few tens of thousands of miles of 'spirited driving' its no wonder these things give up..

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

Take your point Tomn (i think) but 1.5 x nominal load (this is an assumption btw) is by no means 'over engineering' 2 or 3 times maybe but 1.5? thats very conservative me thinks for a high end motor marque.

an S3 a high end motor marque?

really?

same engine in leon cupra-r and tt's

they will be happy

lol

torque and it being spikey, and excessive cylinder pressures are what bend rods (other than hydro locking)

300lbft region and I personally get nervous on stock rods

 

[<tuffty/>]

an S3 a high end motor marque?

really?

same engine in leon cupra-r and tt's

they will be happy

lol....

...not to mention its an engine platform for VW's and Skoda's too

<tuffty/>

 

[mattmackenzie]

About time i got some new rods before my engine goes pop!!!
Wheres the best place to buy them,badger bill's ?
any chance of a group buy????

 

[Welly]

300lbft region and I personally get nervous on stock rods

Boost boosty, bendy bendy. Story story, endy endy.

I came up with that myself.... aren't you all impressed? LOL.

£320 for rods is a small price to pay for piece of mind IMO. Plus, £320 for rods, is cheaper than a grand plus for a new lump.

Fit H beam rods. Remove problem forever. :icon_thumright: