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  1. #1
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    Dyno Dynamics Run

    Follow up to my first post last week.

    Anyway on sat me and a mate who is also a member on here went to a rolling road day at Silverstone Autosports in deeside north wales. My mate went on 1st who is running a X reg S3 with 150k milage which is standard and ran 194 Hp.

    So i went up next expecting a half decent run with them figures my mate got they seemed fairly accurate. So went on and ran 248.8 Hp 279 FtLb which to tell you the truth seemed a little low and was expecting more.

    I know alot of people say "IT the DYNO LOTTERY" and not to take any notice of these results but they do seem low for the mods that the car is currently running, i wouldnt of taken any notice of these results but due the fairly accurate reading on my friends, my results are causing me to think theres something wrong.

    Got a mate pluging Vagcom in this week but before then, any ideas on what the problem might be?

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  3. #2
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    the numbers are meaningless.......

    look at the plot and see if there are any obvious problems with the delivery (other than tiny turbo syndrome)

  4. #3
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    To be honest mate, i think those figures sound about right!

    last dyno dynamics rolling road day I went to no ko4 car made over 245bhp, several with revo stage 2 and similar mods to you. it is generally thought that DD rollers will give a lower reading than most (potentially more accurate). Almost everyone I've seen go on a dyno dynamics rolling road has been dissappointed.

    Do some MAF logs in VAGcom and see how they compare to others with similar mods. 248bhp should be roughly 198g/s MAF
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    ts that k04 turbo different to whats on the facelift s3?

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    Did they unplug the haldex? that looks like the haldex kicking in to me....

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  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    Did they unplug the haldex? that looks like the haldex kicking in to me....

    <tuffty/>
    No was not disconnected

    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    To be honest mate, i think those figures sound about right!

    last dyno dynamics rolling road day I went to no ko4 car made over 245bhp, several with revo stage 2 and similar mods to you. it is generally thought that DD rollers will give a lower reading than most (potentially more accurate). Almost everyone I've seen go on a dyno dynamics rolling road has been dissappointed.

    Do some MAF logs in VAGcom and see how they compare to others with similar mods. 248bhp should be roughly 198g/s MAF
    Yea i was a little dissappointed with the results, will be running vagcom this week so might get more insight to see if theres any potential problems
    My Much Missed :Imola Yellow S3 - Revo stage 2, SPS3, RS6 reps, Pirelli P Zero Rosso, Cupra R splitter, Brembo's, 323mm EBC Turbo Grooved Discs, Ferrodo DS2500 Pads, Forge DV, Forge FMIC, Fidanza Aluminium Flywheel, Sachs Clutch, Green Cotton Dynatwist induction kit, 3" Downpipe, sports cat, Milltek cat back, Bilstein B8's, KW rear adjustable tie bars Whiteline Adjustable ARB's, Eibach Springs, Powerflex Bushes, Bose Concert System

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    Looks right to me,stage one cars are barely making 230 BHP in shootout mode on DD Roliing roads

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Do some MAF logs in VAGcom and see how they compare to others with similar mods. 248bhp should be roughly 198g/s MAF
    Check your air flow through Block 003 in VAG COM as mentioned before. I'm getting around the 210 g/s, most I have seen is 213 g/s, on a maxxed out Revo Stage 1 map.

    Quote Originally Posted by st200_john View Post
    ts that k04 turbo different to whats on the facelift s3?
    Nope - same, or comparible at least.
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    Humm... would be useful to see AFR and boost in relation to this... I had similar issues with high EGT's and the ECU would dump fuel causing similar plot lines...

    Did they give you an AFR plot too?

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  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    Humm... would be useful to see AFR and boost in relation to this... I had similar issues with high EGT's and the ECU would dump fuel causing similar plot lines...

    Did they give you an AFR plot too?

    <tuffty/>
    Just the Hp/Tq Figure plots
    My mates plot lines were similer where there was a drop off around 4300k rev mark and also a 225 TT was doing the same thing
    My Much Missed :Imola Yellow S3 - Revo stage 2, SPS3, RS6 reps, Pirelli P Zero Rosso, Cupra R splitter, Brembo's, 323mm EBC Turbo Grooved Discs, Ferrodo DS2500 Pads, Forge DV, Forge FMIC, Fidanza Aluminium Flywheel, Sachs Clutch, Green Cotton Dynatwist induction kit, 3" Downpipe, sports cat, Milltek cat back, Bilstein B8's, KW rear adjustable tie bars Whiteline Adjustable ARB's, Eibach Springs, Powerflex Bushes, Bose Concert System

    Now : Cupra R 225

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    Where's Bill with this Dyno Lottery?

    I wouldn't go off searching for issues fella, as it will just cause you to be negative about the car. If it feels right and pulls strong with no errors/codes showing in VAG COM it is just likely to be the above, rather than a failing car/part.

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    Yeah, I want to see the 'Dyno Lottery' piccy.....
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  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD09 View Post
    Where's Bill with this Dyno Lottery?

    I wouldn't go off searching for issues fella, as it will just cause you to be negative about the car. If it feels right and pulls strong with no errors/codes showing in VAG COM it is just likely to be the above, rather than a failing car/part.
    The Dam Dyno Lottery lol
    I know i shouldnt really be taking any notice of the results, but just in the back of my mind now that there might just be something wrong

    Will have the air flow logged and few other checks, if they are all fine ill just leave it to "Lottery Effect"

    Why Oh Why did i go in the first place lol
    My Much Missed :Imola Yellow S3 - Revo stage 2, SPS3, RS6 reps, Pirelli P Zero Rosso, Cupra R splitter, Brembo's, 323mm EBC Turbo Grooved Discs, Ferrodo DS2500 Pads, Forge DV, Forge FMIC, Fidanza Aluminium Flywheel, Sachs Clutch, Green Cotton Dynatwist induction kit, 3" Downpipe, sports cat, Milltek cat back, Bilstein B8's, KW rear adjustable tie bars Whiteline Adjustable ARB's, Eibach Springs, Powerflex Bushes, Bose Concert System

    Now : Cupra R 225

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    so if the turbo is the same. how can the seat leon cupra r, 225 bhp and i presume other 225 vag cars, get mapped to 260bhp with no mods?

    surely that turbo can produce more than 250 bhp?

    isnt it the same one as the focus st 5 cylinder turbo?

  16. #15
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    no 225 car will make 225 on DD rollers, you have to understand the great debate in that no rollers will be able to give accurate bhp figures, pretty much every RR you go to will give you dif figs hence the term 'dyno lottery'..... factor in the rear haldex on the quattro cars and your even further off due to anomolies shown in the graph above.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by st200_john View Post
    surely that turbo can produce more than 250 bhp?
    There is a big difference between 'claimed output' of a map and actual output. Stage 1 is 260 so say - but most are lucky to see more than 250 in reality.

    My K04 turbo is absolutely flat out on the S3, and thats at 265 - 270 bhp. And I mean flat out.

    A realistic ceiling for the K04 turbo is 280 BHP at most.
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  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by st200_john View Post
    so if the turbo is the same. how can the seat leon cupra r, 225 bhp and i presume other 225 vag cars, get mapped to 260bhp with no mods?

    surely that turbo can produce more than 250 bhp?
    I am not going into why they say figures over 260BHP but ic=t comes down to consistancy between rolling roads,operators,temperatures,car service level, tyre pressures ,ad infinitum

    There is a reason its called dyno-lottery.jpg

    (image borrowed from Badger-5)

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by indiemike View Post
    My mates plot lines were similer where there was a drop off around 4300k rev mark and also a 225 TT was doing the same thing
    go find as many ko4 20vt plots you can, thats just how these engines seem to be mapped to deliver the power, the small turbo means the torque will head south once youre past 4krpm or so

    only way to keep that torque climbing is to put a bigger turbo on

    afr and boost plots would be helpful too

  20. #19
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    Cheers bud, that what I wanted to see.....
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  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by indiemike View Post
    The Dam Dyno Lottery lol
    I know i shouldnt really be taking any notice of the results, but just in the back of my mind now that there might just be something wrong

    Will have the air flow logged and few other checks, if they are all fine ill just leave it to "Lottery Effect"

    Why Oh Why did i go in the first place lol
    If your car is driving ok then it could be just something odd with dyno setup during the run especially as you say your mates TT did the same and guessing its not the same spec as yours...

    Log blocks 031 (fuelling), 002 (airflow), and 115 (boost) and post up... make sure the engine is at 90 degrees.... Third gear from 2k rpm to redline

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  22. #21
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    has a st focus got a k04 turbo? as they can be tuned to 300bhp without a turbo change.

  23. #22
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    All K04's aren't equal

    RS6 has a 'K04' but the comp and turbine wheel are larger...as is the comp and turbine wheel in the 8P S3 'K04'... this is why the RS6 internals are used in an 8L K04 Hybrid...

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    will the better k04's bolt on a a3 1.8t ?

    i guess the focus st must have a better turbo than the s3?

  25. #24
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    No, not bolt on but you can get a K04 hybrid that is a K03 fitment... uses the K04 internals fitted to a K03... very popular with Ibiza Cupra owners...

    You will also need S3/LCR injectors and the larger S3/LCR MAF....

    <tuffty/>
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  26. #25
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    The Focus ST also has an extra cylinder and 741cc more

  27. #26
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    Tuffty if you wrote a book, I would read it. So would quite a number of others!

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD09 View Post
    Tuffty if you wrote a book, I would read it. So would quite a number of others!
    LOL.... tbh, I have only really learnt the more 1.8t specific stuff since knowing Bill... he is the actual font of all knowledge... I am merely a conduit...

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  29. #28
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    "Dyno Lottery" and "Dyno Dynamics"

    both conspire to get lower than "expected" readings

    Relative however...
    standard car ran 194 Hp.
    Yours then ran 248.8 Hp 279 FtLb

    54bhp over std
    pick a std figure of 210 or 225 you get 264.8bhp or 274.8bhp

    feel better now?

    More than likely fruitless chasing for problems it does'nt have, unless you have before and after for your car same dyno same day

    Enjoy
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  30. #29
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    i had a run on dyno dynamics on saturday. at DS automotives
    got 217bhp , with my car being standard apart from DV.
    with everything considered i think this is pretty accurate

    there was a standard scooby before me that reached 320bhp and that is what manufacturer states.

  31. #30
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    DD do vary... seen it... they claim great things in shoot out mode, however I have'nt seen the consistency their sales patter would make you believe
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  32. #31
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    the manufacturers power claim is at the flywheel is it not? on that basis i'd be very happy with those sorts of power figures at the wheels.

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    Bill, Would you say that the torque produced on a dyno compared to a BHP reading is more or less accurate?

    I just presummed that the torque reading would be "bob on" and BHP be a country mile out either way.


    Clear my confusion :/

  34. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by st200_john View Post
    will the better k04's bolt on a a3 1.8t ?

    i guess the focus st must have a better turbo than the s3?
    id guess not considering their 2.5 lumps are slightly slower than most old S3's or if the turbo is bigger then they have done a terrible job designing it
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    Quote Originally Posted by djarchive View Post
    Bill, Would you say that the torque produced on a dyno compared to a BHP reading is more or less accurate?

    I just presummed that the torque reading would be "bob on" and BHP be a country mile out either way.


    Clear my confusion :/
    It's not that easy, torque is generated as a consequence of power or vice versa. So as Bill has stated, its all proportionate to what that dyno would see your start power as before mods etc. The increases will prob be as claimed even if the before and after figures do not match your expectations

  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by djarchive View Post
    Bill, Would you say that the torque produced on a dyno compared to a BHP reading is more or less accurate?

    I just presummed that the torque reading would be "bob on" and BHP be a country mile out either way.


    Clear my confusion :/
    the rollers will measure the torque at the wheels, the dyno needs to know speed/rpm to calibrate against, to give a calculated atw figure, and this is often a little "wiggy" especially on dyno days when time and care is not spent on the setup of th ecar because of volume of cars to get thru..
    DD rollers do not measure coastdown losses like a lot do, it adds a "factor" to determin its flywheel figure..

    bhp is calculated by this formula: bhp = (torque in lbft x rpm) / 5252

    in my experience of having been on many different rollers, they all vary, and all claim theirs is the best most accurate type..
    Its a tuning tool for me and would show relative improvements from whereever and whatever it started at befor ebeing tuned.

    I will see soon myself, as I am getting my own dyno soon.. so I can join the lottery.. With obviously the most accurate dyno ever made.. lol (cos its mine - hehe)
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    ...in my experience of having been on many different rollers, they all vary, and all claim theirs is the best most accurate type..
    Its a tuning tool for me and would show relative improvements from whereever and whatever it started at befor ebeing tuned.
    I concur... Dyno days are meet and greets for like minded people and should be treated as such... figures on the day should be looked at in context to the figures of the other cars there at that time...

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    I will see soon myself, as I am getting my own dyno soon.. so I can join the lottery.. With obviously the most accurate dyno ever made.. lol (cos its mine - hehe)
    I feel a dyno day coming on ;P

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  38. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    I feel a dyno day coming on ;P<tuffty/>
    As do I (quickly buys as much of Bill's stock as possible as a backhander ).

    "295 with no mods? Wow!"

  39. #38
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    "anythings possible" lol... want big power @ fly? ohh did I accidentally touch the brake on coast down? wow, look 120bhp losses, add that to atw figure and goodness gracious me... awesome (but still a lie) - lol
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  40. #39
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    or theyll need to adjust the rpm that the rollers "detect" and you immediately have higher bhp too

  41. #40
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    I knew my VAG lump rev'd to 10k.

 

 
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