Badger5AH Fabrications
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  1. #1
    RIP S3dave

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    CR K04 Stage 4 Hybrid, comparison to k04

    Hi
    there's a lot of interest in these k04 hybrids.. so to help people visualise whats being talked about I have taken some time to take pictures of on install going on for speedy_steve's S3 which is with me for this upgrade

    First of all comparison side by side showing different compressor wheels.. k04 vs billet k06 wheel

    k04's std comp wheel

    Hybrids billet k06 comp wheel


    hot sides comparison

    turbine size comparison, rs6 wheel vs k04 wheel


    std k04 turbine wheel


    hybrids larger turbine wheel (RS6)



    Mocked up with PiperWerx 3" downpipe on engine and stock manifold



    Essential mods imho are going to include rods, downpipe, fmic, intake to support what this thing is potentially capable of.
    Steve's gone for rods which we have fitted (IE rods), FMIC will be required, and mapping to suit to realise its potential.

    more when we have buttoned it back together and test driven it and logged what it does
    watch this space folks
    regards
    bill
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  3. #2
    Lemon S3's Avatar
    Alex

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    Looks good Bill, excellent stuff. Look forward to the results.
    Do you know the complete spec of the hybrid turbo?
    1999 APY S3 Imola Yellow

    PS3: Broady_11

  4. #3
    RIP S3dave

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    this is what CR have said in respect comparisons to Turbo Dynamics units

    The Stage 1 (MD299) has uprated thrust and K04-024 Compwheel. (eg vauxhall Astra)
    The Stage 2 (MD212) Is the above, but also with a cutback to shaft
    The Stage 3 (MD364) Has the billett K06 wheel (the one we use) and Cutback to standard shaft
    The Stage 4 (MD421) Has the billett K06 wheel and larger shaft.
    The stage 4 is the same spec as we are doing for you now....
    the one pictured is the stage 4

    and for TD's specs and claims - see below reference
    Turbo Dynamics
    (all exchange prices)
    Stage 1 - MD299 - 495+VAT
    High flow K06 Compressor wheel, C.N.C. re-profiled compressor housing, 360 degree
    thrust bearing, modified watercooled bearing housing, lightening of turbine wheel for
    faster spool up, modified turbine housing, up-rated turbine seals. Other blueprinting
    modifications. APPROX 260-280 BHP Max recommended boost pressure 18-20 PSI

    Stage 2 - 550+VAT
    MD212 High flow K06 Compressor wheel, C.N.C. re-profiled compressor housing, 360 degree
    thrust bearing, modified watercooled bearing housing, cut back turbine blades, lightening
    of turbine wheel for faster spool up, modified turbine housing, up-rated turbine seals.
    Other blueprinting modifications. APPROX 280-300 BHP Max recommended boost
    pressure 20-22 PSI

    Stage 3 - MD364 - 650+VAT
    Modified compressor housing inlet, C.N.C re-profiled compressor cover for high flow
    compressor, 2283 Spec Billet Aluminium Lightweight Compressor Wheel, modified
    seal plate, 360 degree thrust bearing, left hand thread turbine wheel with cut back turbine
    blades, lightening of turbine wheel for faster spool up, modified turbine housing, uprated
    turbine seals, up-rated actuator optional. Other blueprinting modifications.
    APPROX 320-330 BHP Max recommended boost pressure 22-24 PSI

    Stage 4 - MD421 - 795+VAT
    Modified compressor housing inlet, C.N.C re-profiled compressor cover for high flow
    compressor, 2283 Spec Billet Aluminium Lightweight Compressor Wheel. modified
    seal plate, 360 degree thrust bearing, K04 Large trim left hand thread turbine wheel with
    lightening of turbine wheel for faster spool up, C.N.C. modified turbine housing for
    higher flow, up-rated twin turbine seals, 0.8 Bar up-rated actuator. Other blueprinting
    modifications. APPROX 340-360 BHP Max recommended boost pressure 24-26 PSI.
    My personal opinion is the power figures claimed by TD are unrealistic, so we will have to see..
    A high flow mani such as JBS are shortly making available should make a nice contribution to increased flow.
    Last edited by badger5; 27th March 2010 at 18:34.
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  5. #4
    finesse's Avatar
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    Interesting

    What happens if you just go for a big turbo without the other mods (fmic)
    Ibiza Cupra TDI

    Gone:

    Audi C5 RS 6 - Stage 2
    Audi 8L S3 - Revo'd

  6. #5
    Dani_B19's Avatar
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    Realistically bill what do you think bhp and torque will be without a high flow manifold like jbs etc?
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

  7. #6
    Lemon S3's Avatar
    Alex

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    Bill, are those prices from TD for new units or rebuild and are they up to date? As I've got a spec n price list from them showing stage 1 935, stage 2 975, stage 3 1125, stage 4 1295 for new units.
    1999 APY S3 Imola Yellow

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  8. #7
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by finesse View Post
    Interesting

    What happens if you just go for a big turbo without the other mods (fmic)
    Would be a waste of time tbh....

    Stage 1 remaps already make the IAT's too high for the std SMIC's to cope with...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  9. #8
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    My stage 4 ( so im told it was ) cost me 1100 including vat and postage to a garage i use.
    It was a full new unit, not a recon
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

  10. #9
    Speedy Steve's Avatar
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    The turbo Bill is showing is the original turbo from my car (112000 miles) and no cracks, reconditioned by CR with the extra bits. I cant wait to see more on this it is very exciting.
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

  11. #10
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Gonna need a FMIC and a decent map to realise its full potential though Steve....

    Until then, you could change your forum name to 'Potentially Speedy Steve' LOL

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  12. #11
    dela's Avatar
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    how much are the IE rods bill?

  13. #12
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    I think bill said 320 inc vat in another thread?
    I have these rods in my engine too.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

  14. #13
    Morgan-VAGCHECK's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I am currently testing one of the CR K04 hybrids on my own TT, & so far it is looking quite promising.

    Bill what is the crack pressure set at on the hybrid you have there 1.0bar ?

    This is the spec they sent to me.

    Modified compressor housing inlet.
    C.N.C re-profiled compressor cover for high flow compressor.
    K06 billet aluminum lightweight compressor wheel.
    Modified seal plate.
    360 degree Large Pad uprated thrust bearing.
    Left hand thread turbine wheel with cut back turbine blades.
    Lightening of turbine wheel.
    Modified turbine housing.
    Uprated Step-Gap turbine seals.
    Uprated 1 bar actuator.
    Other blueprinting modifications.
    Max recommended boost pressure peak at 27 drop to 23-24PSI

    Regards
    Morgan

  15. #14
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon S3 View Post
    Bill, are those prices from TD for new units or rebuild and are they up to date? As I've got a spec n price list from them showing stage 1 935, stage 2 975, stage 3 1125, stage 4 1295 for new units.
    i dont know.. i just copied/paste of whoever else posted them on here last week
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  16. #15
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani_B19 View Post
    Realistically bill what do you think bhp and torque will be without a high flow manifold like jbs etc?
    we will have to see.. i wont predict it
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  17. #16
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by dela View Post
    how much are the IE rods bill?
    between 299-320 depending on exchange rates at time.. inc vat
    regards
    bill
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  18. #17
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan-VAGCHECK View Post
    Hi,

    I am currently testing one of the CR K04 hybrids on my own TT, & so far it is looking quite promising.

    Bill what is the crack pressure set at on the hybrid you have there 1.0bar ?
    Regards
    Morgan
    not 1 bar
    that is spike tastic in my experience of hybrids, and very unfriendly to mapping
    i have spec'd this one less to CR when they built it up

    regards
    bill
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  19. #18
    S3 all the way Baby

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    Look forward to the results of this one guys,I have just sent my turbo off to CR for HYBRIDIZING.

  20. #19
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    Bill, you want me to stick this with all this juicey information enclosed?

  21. #20
    Morgan-VAGCHECK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    not 1 bar
    that is spike tastic in my experience of hybrids, and very unfriendly to mapping
    i have spec'd this one less to CR when they built it up

    regards
    bill
    Hi,

    Cant say we are experiencing any actual issues in controlling boost spike, but yes a 1bar actuator can make it a little more tricky.

    The reason I asked was I could see your actuator is different to what was supplied with mine :-)

    Regards
    Morgan

  22. #21
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan A4 View Post
    Bill, you want me to stick this with all this juicey information enclosed?
    could do mate, its a resource so the popyular question of hybrid can have some actual info for whats available etc
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  23. #22
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan-VAGCHECK View Post
    Hi,

    Cant say we are experiencing any actual issues in controlling boost spike, but yes a 1bar actuator can make it a little more tricky.

    The reason I asked was I could see your actuator is different to what was supplied with mine :-)

    Regards
    Morgan
    on k03/4 hybrids i have done the stiffer actuator has'nt help the control, so i am reluctant to do so on this. we checked a std k04 opening crack pressure earlier and it starts to open just before 5psi, where this new one is near double that.. so i hope its soft enough to make control nice and smooth (unknown map in the car, not my mapping at this time) but enough static pressure so it keeps the thing shut if hotside backpressure becomes an issue

    what boost and airflow readings are you seeing with yours?
    stock bottom end in it ?
    Last edited by badger5; 28th March 2010 at 13:50.
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  24. #23
    RIP S3dave

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    some install pictures of it in place with the now wrapped PipeWerx 3" downpipe




    116k mile engine.. next to no lip in the bore and factory hone marks still very apparent..
    just cleaned up pistons and refit them as they came out. (its not an endless budget)

    getting there...
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  25. #24
    Lemon S3's Avatar
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    Looks good Bill, do you not recommend to change the piston rings or have you already?
    1999 APY S3 Imola Yellow

    PS3: Broady_11

  26. #25
    Morgan-VAGCHECK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    on k03/4 hybrids i have done the stiffer actuator has'nt help the control, so i am reluctant to do so on this. we checked a std k04 opening crack pressure earlier and it starts to open just before 5psi, where this new one is near double that.. so i hope its soft enough to make control nice and smooth (unknown map in the car, not my mapping at this time) but enough static pressure so it keeps the thing shut if hotside backpressure becomes an issue

    what boost and airflow readings are you seeing with yours?
    stock bottom end in it ?
    Hi Bill,

    I know exactly where you are coming from in regards the actuator, & yes it does make smooth control more fiddly when it is very stiff. To be honest I was just happy they supplied an actuator that didn’t need a **** load of pre-load added, to get anywhere near the manufacturers suggested boost pressure like one of the popular hybrids we have seen do.

    I am currently correcting a few weak points that have appeared before we can finish the mapping. First my fuel pump started sagging (now replaced), today bigger injectors are going in as I didn’t like the IDC with a 3bar reg.

    So far peak airflow seen ~240g/s (with boost on top not yet where we want it), but DKVS was intervening & starting to close the throttle because of the fuel issues.

    It is not a stock bottom end on mine, & I think you are certainly taking the best approach in specifying rods for your build too.

    Hopefully by Wednesday/Thursday (don’t have any free time Monday or Tuesday) I will have tested further & can post some logs, if you are interested.

    Exhaust manifold is going to be needed for sure to see full potential, & I am currently toying with just getting a tubular fabricated for now until I see results from the JBS/Ina/034 cast offerings when they are finally available.

    Cheers
    Morgan

  27. #26
    Speedy Steve's Avatar
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    hehe i love all these pics of my engine in bits. Yes bill we will have to sort the map out but i will get hold of a fmic first and i will just take it easy (hum is that possible?)
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

  28. #27
    Morgan-VAGCHECK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Steve View Post
    hehe i love all these pics of my engine in bits. Yes bill we will have to sort the map out but i will get hold of a fmic first and i will just take it easy (hum is that possible?)
    Hi,

    You could always just go with actuator pressure regulation (N75 disconnected) if Bill finds logged parameters are not ideal with your current mapping, this will get you by in the meantime.

    Regards
    Morgan

  29. #28
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon S3 View Post
    Looks good Bill, do you not recommend to change the piston rings or have you already?
    it came in running fine and not smoking, so they have been left alone.. its nicely run in already.. 116k
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  30. #29
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan-VAGCHECK View Post
    Hi Bill,

    I know exactly where you are coming from in regards the actuator, & yes it does make smooth control more fiddly when it is very stiff. To be honest I was just happy they supplied an actuator that didn’t need a **** load of pre-load added, to get anywhere near the manufacturers suggested boost pressure like one of the popular hybrids we have seen do.

    I am currently correcting a few weak points that have appeared before we can finish the mapping. First my fuel pump started sagging (now replaced), today bigger injectors are going in as I didn’t like the IDC with a 3bar reg.

    So far peak airflow seen ~240g/s (with boost on top not yet where we want it), but DKVS was intervening & starting to close the throttle because of the fuel issues.

    It is not a stock bottom end on mine, & I think you are certainly taking the best approach in specifying rods for your build too.

    Hopefully by Wednesday/Thursday (don’t have any free time Monday or Tuesday) I will have tested further & can post some logs, if you are interested.

    Exhaust manifold is going to be needed for sure to see full potential, & I am currently toying with just getting a tubular fabricated for now until I see results from the JBS/Ina/034 cast offerings when they are finally available.

    Cheers
    Morgan
    thanks for the info.. be interesting to compare notes. very interested in how you find yours.
    100% agree on the manifold being a factor in achieving the potential max from these.. I dont personally subscribe to fitting stiffer and stiffer actuators to keep the wastegate from being blown open... thats excessive backpressure, which as we know will go hand in glove with immence egts when pushed. a recipe for failures

    be interesting to see who comes out with a manifold first and (if) they prove reliable. the cheap k03 fitment manifolds when used all seem to crack badly.


    for speedy steve> your water pump
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  31. #30
    Speedy Steve's Avatar
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    As i said on the phone Bill if it needs doing do it! I dont have an endless pocket but while your working on it and its easy o do it might aswell get done!
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

  32. #31
    RIP S3dave

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    my ibiza also suffers the same thing.. metal impellor pumps dont break up on the impellor, but they do maybe suffer shaft seal issues instead! doh! you cant win.. dammit
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  33. #32
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    Swings and roundabouts. Damned if you do, damned if you don't....

    I've only just spotted this thread guys, looks like it's coming along nicely indeed! I'm very much looking forward to seeing the logs from this upon completion. If this produces good results I may well go the same route myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan-VAGCHECK View Post
    So far peak airflow seen ~240g/s (with boost on top not yet where we want it)
    Based on my current issue with the K04 turbo not producing enough pressure against the large port head, 240 G/S sounds nice.... I'm stuck now at a measly 212 g/s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Steve View Post
    hehe i love all these pics of my engine in bits. Yes bill we will have to sort the map out but i will get hold of a fmic first and i will just take it easy (hum is that possible?)
    I did my front mount myself inside of 225.... It doesn't have to be an expensive job.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Marriage is like a coffin and each kid is another nail."
    Homer Simpson





  34. #33
    Speedy Steve's Avatar
    5th Gear

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    Have just been through Tuffty's FMIC build thread and ordered all the hoses and clamps for 104 pounds. Just waiting to hear back about the cooler
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

  35. #34
    RIP S3dave

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    Alex AH one yea?
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  36. #35
    Speedy Steve's Avatar
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    Yes sir AH Fabrication have not had an email back yet but if not heard anything by tomorrow will call him
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

  37. #36
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    Got one on mine (bought from Alex @ AH Fab)

    Absolute bob on

  38. #37
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    I think I need to have a word with Alex about some commission LOL

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  39. #38
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    I think you better i am about to put an order in for one after speaking with you.

    Superb thread badger really looking forward to how this comes together.
    52 plate black s3,Star performance remap, 18" bbs lm reps, adjustable tie bars, bilstein b8s, eibach springs, forge 007p, panel filter, covered in rg55

  40. #39
    Lemon S3's Avatar
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    How you getting on Bill?
    Also how do you rate CR Turbos, are they reliable and up to spec as TD?
    1999 APY S3 Imola Yellow

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  41. #40
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon S3 View Post
    How you getting on Bill?
    Also how do you rate CR Turbos, are they reliable and up to spec as TD?
    CR are ok.. not perfect but then so few are.
    I have no personal experience of TD, but the specs look to be the same for the k04 stage 4 hybrid.. I have heard of failures of a "branded" MD421, where a comp wheel blade sheared off, but I know that branded unit was run in excess of 2bar which is beyond what TD themselves rate it to..

    If I get to map this one, I will aim to map it to a sustained 1.5bar, with a potential 1.7bar initial spool - we will see how things pan out.

    Mark is the guy at CR I talk to.. he's pretty helpfull and enthusiastic

    regards
    bill
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