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  1. #321
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    your choice at the end of the day.... piece of mind for the sake of a few 100 quid? a spike can kill the rods if something goes wrong.....

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  3. #322
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    I understand what you are saying... what I want to find out is, what are the limits of the standard internals and will a CR K04 hybrid exceed them? If the car is doing 320 lb/ft now, and has been for a few years on standard rods without any problems, then how much further, if any, can I push them without fear of them going skyward. I agree changing them is probably a good idea but if a K04 hybrid isn't going to produce any more torque, which having read the numbers on this thread it won't, what is the point in upgrading them?
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  4. #323
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    Surely if you think the figures are low and throwing rods through the block, with your torque you must be bricking it?!

    No personal experience yet as havent even got a remap (yet) but I think most people are going to tell you that you might as well do rods regardless of which turbo you put back on for piece of mind and the sake of forking out for a new engine the rods seem like a bargain!!!
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  5. #324
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    If you are already making 320ftlbs then I would say you need rods now...

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    I don't know, maybe I am being naive but I am aware of lots of 1.8T's running decent power on standard pistons / rods without any problems. Sure if they throw a rod it's bad news but I am not convinced changing them on an S3 is necessary for the sort of figures that can be achieved from a K04 hybrid and at the moment I think it is more often than not undertaken as an often unnecessary insurance policy in most cases. If you see me crying by the side of the road feel free to mock by all means!

    For example, I have a fair bit of experience with 16v VW engines being turbo charged and they are absolutely fine on standard Audi S2 internals up to a given point and then, fair enough, they need to be changed, but until that point is reached, they don't break. 20v rods obviously have a threshold too, I am just curious to see what it is and whether a CR K04 hybrid will exceed them?
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  7. #326
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    i think the golden rule is 320ish + but some have been bending on modest maps normal turbos....like i say its your car it may be fine and ????? i would not mock anybody at the side of the road too..lol

  8. #327
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    Your call mate obviously, power isn't the problem here its the torque... granted the K04 isn't a power house but its spiky nature will nuke rods... simples... there are a few here that have bent them on on nothing more than a stage 1 remap let alone hybrids etc...

    Good luck

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  9. #328
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    Well I appreciate the info chaps, as I say you all have a lot more experience with these cars than I do hence the questions and the feedback is much appreciated. I just wanted to ask the question really, still in a dilemna as to which way to jump but perhaps leaving it as is would be the more sensible option!!!
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  10. #329
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    What you have to ask yourself is are you happy with how your car is if so save the money and just get a new turbo. The one thing i like about having a slightly lower lbft is im not going to kill my clutch
    Last edited by Speedy Steve; 3rd August 2010 at 22:05.
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

  11. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDMk1 View Post
    and ran a respectable 290bhp and 320lb/ft on their rollers with printouts to prove.
    is the printout DynoRace Dimsport one?
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  12. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDMk1 View Post
    Well I would perhaps agree but torque kills rods and the torque figures in this thread are comparitively low.....? Hence the confusion......
    hmmm. and wellys S3 bent a rod on revo stage 1, 1.2bar boost, and on my dyno makes 238lbft - now thats not bendy territory, but dyno's vary and mine seems to read lower than some other more happy dynos.
    wellys was enough to break his rod, and some others on here are also suffering rod failure, so dont judge it by torque alone.
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  13. #332
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDMk1 View Post
    I understand what you are saying... what I want to find out is, what are the limits of the standard internals and will a CR K04 hybrid exceed them? If the car is doing 320 lb/ft now, and has been for a few years on standard rods without any problems, then how much further, if any, can I push them without fear of them going skyward. I agree changing them is probably a good idea but if a K04 hybrid isn't going to produce any more torque, which having read the numbers on this thread it won't, what is the point in upgrading them?
    get it mapped to suit then, less boost, no spike, and progressive build will ease the stress, BUT, its in "will it or wont it territory" imho rod wise.
    Last edited by badger5; 3rd August 2010 at 23:07.
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  14. #333
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    Bill, yes the rolling road run was on Jabba's rollers which are DynoRace I believe, I will have to double check the printout to be 100% though.

    I've been onto CR again this morning and been sensible / boring and went for a KKK K04 running standard spec other than uprated bearings to hopefully stop anything similar happening again. I quizzed Jabba today about the rods and they agreed 320lb / ft was getting toward the limits and also suggested that the cost of going hybrid inc. remap, 440's etc. would gain me little in terms of BHP per over the 290 it has already done..... therefore I'm going to leave things as they are and comfort myself with the thoughts that it has been like this for a good while now without any problems. If it goes Pete Tong then so be it and I'll get a stronger bottom end built next time!

    Appreciate all the help though and this seems like a really good forum... also for those on the look out for turbo's I would definitely recommend CR, very helpful indeed and reasonable prices. I've dealt with AET in the past who are also good but CR certainly took the biscuit this time...
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  15. #334
    RIP S3dave

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    dimsport rollers are the "happy" ones, inertia only.

    log your airflow and you will see a peak of 200g/s more than likely not 232g/s which 290bhp would require
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  16. #335
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    How do I go about logging the airflow???
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  17. #336
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    in vagcom, engine, block 002 or 003 shows mass airflow in g/s
    if you simulated an acceleration run in 3rd/4th wot, you will see what peak airflow is measures.
    other usefull blocks to look at whilst logging (you can log 3 blocks max) are blocks 020 which is timing correction CF, and block 115 which is request vs actual boost..
    there are other usefull ones to see also, like 031 which is lambda request and actual, 112 which shows egt, and 118 which shows actual boost and induction temps, as well as n75 duty cycle.

    the guide on airflow vs what power than can equate to is divide g/s by 0.8 and you get your approximate power. this has correlated on several cars I have dynod recently whilst logging with vagcom

    have fun.. drive safe
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  18. #337
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    Ah thanks very much for that... well I should have the car on the road this time next week all being well and I can lay my hands on a friends vagcom and lead so I will give it a go.....

    I'll let you know the results so it will give you more data for your own dyno.

    Cheers
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  19. #338
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    would water meth help with rod failure?? i know its torque that damages them but if things are running a little cooler then every thing will be under less stress? opinions,,,

  20. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    would water meth help with rod failure?? i know its torque that damages them but if things are running a little cooler then every thing will be under less stress? opinions,,,
    no it is the shear sudden pull on the engine from torque or a huge spike..

  21. #340
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    not as simple as that, no.

    anyhows..
    here's a comparison of a k04 (wellys) on logs of airflow vs steves hybrid

    Where people thought the hybrid 'lagged' the k04, in airflow terms it did'nt at all as you can see.
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  22. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    comparison, k04 std on revo compared to cr k04 hybrid, on my rollers


    logged vagcom airflows to go with the dynoplot above
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  23. #342
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    My S3 engine made 260lb/ft of toque on a 4wd dyno at the wheels and the rods didnt let go....after 3000 miles the turbo did though. Im new on here with an Audi S3 engine in a Golf 4motion. Rebuilding the engine now...I have some questions so will post up a new thread.

    Dan

  24. #343
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    hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
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  25. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3gazz View Post
    hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
    Rods, rods, rods. Don't skimp on them, it won't be beneficial in the long run.

    Short term gain, long term loss.

    Do it all at once - no problems that way.
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  26. #345
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    cheers mate rods it is then any idears best place to get then from and what else would i need with the turbo like fuel pump and injectors tar gaz
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  27. #346
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    Bill at Badger5 can sort with with IE Rods (The same I use).

    I will be piloting VXR Injectors (470cc) on my hybrid build next week so I'd await the outcome of that.
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  28. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3gazz View Post
    hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
    keep a lid on the boost and aggression during mapping if no rods... but you wont realise the hybrids potential I fear
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  29. #348
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    ok cheers welly dont now if to go 440 or 470 lol is there much dif tar
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  30. #349
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    Yeah, the difference is around or about 30....

    Like I said, I'll have a better idea on the 470s once mapped.
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  31. #350
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    hi bill how much are the rods then and should i go 440 or 470 does it matter much between them both
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  32. #351
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    rods 340, bearings 75 plus fitting + stuff
    440's or 470's either will work when mapped to suit

    we will see how wellys gets on when i do it in a couple of weeks
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  33. #352
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    cheers mate ruf how much to fit rods will i need to fit new piston rings at same time and witch injectors are the best mate and will need bigger fuel pump with them tar badger
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  34. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3gazz View Post
    cheers mate ruf how much to fit rods will i need to fit new piston rings at same time and witch injectors are the best mate and will need bigger fuel pump with them tar badger
    450 labour +vat plus gaskets bolts and stuff
    the 480cc vxr ones may work out best value currently.. we'll see how they work in wellys soon
    new rings not req'd usually.. light deglaze and clean up and reinstall
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  35. #354
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    tar mate ill see how wellys works then
    350bhp & 316ftlb BBT new k16 7+7 blade hybrid turbo, Welly cooler, jetex filter, relentless ported v3 manifold 3" downpipe & de-cat, liquid gauge, r32 rear arb, AGU ported and polished Head, 550cc injectors, kw v2 Coilovers, s3dave tie bars & heat sheild, milltek cat back, I.E forged rods, brembos, inline fuel pump, v3 badger 5 tip, devils own WMI kit, AGU pistons, rear grooved discs & brembo pads, ds2500 pads & EBC ultimax disc, stack boost gauge

  36. #355
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    update:
    okies.. small update.
    Wellys been fitting his 034 mani..
    whilst apart he brought the hybrid k04 along so I could port its wastegate as it was creeping under boost.

    Pictures below of whats been done and required.
    Std k04/Hybrid wastegate port


    Once ported by me


    Quite some difference

    A std K04 throat


    The ported Hybrid of Wellys


    and finally, side by side comparison of a K04 and the ported hybrid
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  37. #356
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    Badger if i ported my turbo and fit the 034 manifold would i have any problems?

    I know welly has a large port head and i have a ported small port but a extra 300cc so just trying to weigh things up weather its worth keeping the CR Hybrid and port it and fit the manifold or save for a GT3076r?
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  38. #357
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    I think the engine capacity you have will show the hybrids limit up .. It would break 300bhp I think, but the top end rpms it would be flow restricted.
    depends on how much power you want and what sort of power delivery you are after..
    GT3076 etc is a leap from k04 based units..

    a bigger turbo would seem more appropriate to your spec engine tho.. all down to your power goals.
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  39. #358
    Andrew@A.L.D's Avatar
    Cylinder Head Master

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    When i started the build i wanted over 300 but with the spec i have i'm sure 400 would be easily done with a GT Turbo
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  40. #359
    RIP S3dave

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    yours should be a rocket ship andy..
    go for it
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  41. #360
    Neutral

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    Welly/Bill,

    As you know I blew my head, the guy rebuilding it says its going to need new exhaust valve guides which he is saying are 15 each plus VAT and obviously there are 8. He then said it may need new inlet ones too which then would be 15+VAT x 20....not good! Welly did an AGU head fit straight onto yours? Mine is an APY so think it will? Can I use a standard inlet manifold for now on an AGU head? Then get a big port one when I find one?

    Reason asking is I have found a brand new head for 400. This is a genuine VW one and not a recon.

    Or can I get away with just having the exhaust valve guides done and new valves?

    Sorry for posting it here...but eventually it will coincide with the information as it is a hybrid ko4 car lol

    Thanks!
    Dan

 

 
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