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  1. #1
    Westy's Avatar
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    I need some help understanding my VCDS ignition timing figures.

    I've been doing a few logs in VCDS as i've removed my N249 valve and have been experimenting with different DV springs and reversing the DV. I have been monitoring the ignition timing (group 3 of the engine module) but I dont have a clue what is good and what is bad. Can anyone explain what should be safe maximum or minimum numbers?
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  3. #2
    Westy's Avatar
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    Anyone? Tuffty or bill?

    My results range from -6 to 30 and I have no idea what is good and what is bad.
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  4. #3
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    I'd also like to know what this is as I wondered what range it should be in as my car keeps misfiring.
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    i would be looking at 020 block and judging how much pull the knock sensors see. not actual timing as such
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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    i would be looking at 020 block and judging how much pull the knock sensors see. not actual timing as such

    Cheers Bill

    I've got some block 20 logs now. What am I looking out for?
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  7. #6
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    if block 020 is the correction factor (C/F) then closest to zero is best
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  8. #7
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    Highest number i've seen is 6 near 6000rpm but mainly 0. is that ok???
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  9. #8
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    Post the results mate... just the rows where you are on load.

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  10. #9
    Westy's Avatar
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    When you say "on load" what do you mean? I'm out at the mo so won't be able to post results for another hour.
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  11. #10
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    I assume you did the logging in a third gear run from 2k to redline? What other blocks did you log at the same time?

    By load I meant (in this instance) values from the run inc rpm etc to get an idea of whats going on...

    Bill has more experience/knowledge on this tbh, I am sure he will advise once you have posted the values...

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  12. #11
    Westy's Avatar
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    I was in 4th gear from 2k to 6k as it was a bit slippery and I ran out of runway. I've logged blocks 20, 115, & 120. I'll post up results in a bit if I can figure out how to upload a spreadsheet!
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  13. #12
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    Take a screen shot of the values mate if thats easier...

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  14. #13
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    I've highlighted the run and frozen the panes so I hope it make sense.
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  15. #14
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    Huummm... I suspect you really need to log block 20 alongside something else to see why the timing is being pulled... IAT's for instance and fuelling along with block 115 to see it all in relation to boost...

    I think pulling 6's is a little high but Bill will tell you with a little more authority than me...

    Have you got a FMIC yet mate?... I assume you are using 99 octane (V-Power or Tesco 99)? What remap you running?

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  16. #15
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    No fmic yet and running a chipped uk map from "chip n spin". There's no shell garage or tesco close to me so I'm running bp ultimate which I think is only 98ron! I'll try and do another run in the next couple of days and log some other blocks.

    Thanks for your input Paul.
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  17. #16
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    No worries mate... there are a number of reasons why timing gets pulled... its the ECU protecting the engine so no real drama but if its pulling high numbers then there will be an underlying reason why. I have had experience of a Chipped UK map and it didn't work for me tbh... They were helpful enough trying to diagnose the issue but I ended up going back to std...

    98ron should fine... logging blocks 031,115 and 020 will give you an idea of how the fuelling is under boost and see if the timing pull is due to a fuelling issue as it looks like its affecting all cylinders rather than the odd one which can happen under normal conditions.

    Log IAT's too (block 118) alongside 020 to see if charge air temp is having any affect on your timing pull too.

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  18. #17
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    Paul could you cast your eye over this thread if you haven't done already:

    Vagcom results after N249 bypass and reversed DV

    I'm guessing the two are connected as my boost starts dieing off at the same time the timing is pulled!

    I was thinking that my TIP was probably collapsing at 4krpm with 22psi?
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  19. #18
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    I would ignore block 120 to try and detrmin power as its mapped.. who knows what tables have been adjusted in the map..

    judge your airflow, boost, ignition timing and fueling to optimise what you have imho

    CF of up to a max of 6 is thought to be optimal and what I use as a guide.

    your logs show a typical turbo's response and boost vs revs to me
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  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    I would ignore block 120 to try and detrmin power as its mapped.. who knows what tables have been adjusted in the map..

    judge your airflow, boost, ignition timing and fueling to optimise what you have imho

    CF of up to a max of 6 is thought to be optimal and what I use as a guide.

    your logs show a typical turbo's response and boost vs revs to me
    Much appreciated Bill. I'll try and get another log on my way home from work today.

    Do the timing adjustments looks normal for a stage1 with no FMIC and a standard TIP?
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  21. #20
    RIP S3dave

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    yep
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  22. #21
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    BP is 97 Octane IIRC
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  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianysm View Post
    BP is 97 Octane IIRC
    Yep I've just checked online, 97Ron or 102Ron (but never seen 102 anywhere!)

    I need to find a Shell garage I think and start travelling a bit further to get some decent fuel!
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  24. #23
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    You should have seen some 102 when you went to the 'ring. They sell it in Germany!

    Tesco 99 seems the best. Also proven by Thorney Motorsport, but its abit out of my way!
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  25. #24
    Westy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianysm View Post
    You should have seen some 102 when you went to the 'ring. They sell it in Germany!

    Tesco 99 seems the best. Also proven by Thorney Motorsport, but its abit out of my way!
    To be honest I dont even remember any BP stations in Germany. We were filling up with the Shell 100ron stuff they have over there.

    The nearest Tesco is a mission for me so I'll see where my nearest shell garage is.

    I've also got a silicone TIP in my sights on ebay so I'll get that fitted in the new year, and then save for my FMIC. Hopefully that should sort things out
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  26. #25
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    Ok guys, did some more logs, not sure what i'm looking for! I'm pretty sure that the temp is not the air intake temp as it didn't go above 20 degrees!!!



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  27. #26
    Westy's Avatar
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    Bump for anyone that didn't see it the other day!
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  28. #27
    RIP S3dave

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    nothing left timign wise imho.... given the cold weather, its likely to be too much timing when its hot in the summer
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  29. #28
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    Bill can you confirm which block is the air intake temp? I'd better get a fmic sorted sooner than later. Thanks for your help
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  30. #29
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  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    118
    Thanks. Why don't my temps go above 20 degrees? I was expecting a lot higher than that!
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  32. #31
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westle View Post
    Thanks. Why don't my temps go above 20 degrees? I was expecting a lot higher than that!

    What was the outside temps at the time?

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  33. #32
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    Not sure but it was less than 10 because it was just after all the snow we had. I'm just wondering why my ecu is changing the timing so much if the cooling is ok?

    Edit:

    I just re-read your fmic thread and you were getting between 50-70 degrees with an outside temp of 16 degrees so I wouldn't expect mine to be as low as they are at say 8 degrees!
    Last edited by Westy; 2nd January 2010 at 18:05.
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  34. #33
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    To be fair, I think my IC's were pretty heat soaked which goes to show had bad the really are at recovering from getting hot. If you did your logging pretty much from warming up the car then that may explain the low temps, that and if you only did the one run... if you did a few runs I suspect the heat would build and recovery would slow.

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  35. #34
    Westy's Avatar
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    You are correct I did do it just after warm up an only did 2 runs bit why would my timing be pulled so much if cooling was adequate?

    Since I bypassed the N249 and I am now holding a bit more boost it's caused my bhp & torque readings to drop. Have you got any idea how much a collapsing tip would effect readings or timing?
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  36. #35
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    your logs posted show ambient temps not ait i think..
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  37. #36
    Westy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    your logs posted show ambient temps not ait i think..
    It was the only temp field under block 118? I'll have another look when I get a chance.
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  38. #37
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Westle View Post
    It was the only temp field under block 118? I'll have another look when I get a chance.
    if its 118 then its ait, your posted logs up top are'nt that tho.
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  39. #38
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    Cheers Bill

    The 3rd screen shot shows AITs (block 118). This one:

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  40. #39
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    Low IAT's in your logs are feasible given the circumstances under which you logged... Incidently, mine were -3 degrees this morning cruising B roads (went up to 2 degrees with the occasional bit of on boost acceleration) but climbed to 10 degrees when I hit town due to slow traffic/heat soak and that was in -5 degree ambient temps.

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  41. #40
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    Yeah that's fine mate as you explained why I would have low readings (outside temp, car only warmed up etc) but what I'm now trying to understand is why is my ignition timing pulling so much? Or are my timing figures normal? I'm only really asking because the car feels (and logs showed) down on power compared to my logs from last year?!!
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