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Thread: AH Fab / Ebay / Forge S3/A3 FMIC installs (image heavy)

  1. #41
    Andrew@A.L.D's Avatar
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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew@A.L.D View Post
    its the correct size but the inlet pipes need to be at the bottom those ones seem to be nearer the middle this link is more like the one you want with the pipe inlet at the bottom
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/600x3...Q5fAccessories

  4. #43
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    Right guys looked into the ebay cooler a bit more and i ended up getting one

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-LARGE-Inte...d=p3286.c0.m14

    I also found out from a friend that works for a well know car tuning mag that a Scandinavian Audi Tuning company also uses this cooler in there 600bhp S3

    www.Nordicturbo.dk
    Last edited by Andrew@A.L.D; 29th July 2009 at 17:40.

  5. #44
    Dennis Moeller's Avatar
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    Had a go at my FMIC yeaterday (FMIC big Core and 2.5" pipes all the way) and we managed to reroute the pipes nice and tight. Now the grilles are in place and the left fog light sits nice and snug. Just need to find a solution for the right fog light. Mererly a matter of modifying the plug for the light (it's a huge mother...), needs 1 inch more space. Had some difficulties regarding this as you know the the larger core makes it rather hard to fit and the 2.5" pipes don't make it easier...Had to cut out a fair bit of the big plastic front piece that sits behind the radiator and aircon element...each side had to be massaged ;-)

    Will post pic's of the front when I'm 100% finished but this is what nedds to be cut out...You see the pink rag in the left side of the picture, that's the outlet side of the FMIC

    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
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  6. #45
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    any one managed to do a fmic on an a3 yet with the cheaper alternative fmic.
    Its gone replaced with a mk2 golf gti 16v :D

  7. #46
    Dennis Moeller's Avatar
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    Well guys, I've unexpectantly sold the S3 (got an offer I really couldn't turn down ). But I do owe AS.net a picture or two of the Forge/custom FMIC installation. The two grilles that cover the foglights needed to have 2-3mm shaved off the backside in order for them to fit 100% and it wouldn't really be noticeable from the outside unless you stuck you're head in there...But that's the new owner's first mod hehe...Didn't have the time to take proper pic's because the new owner picked up the car less than a 30 hours from initial contact so I was bussy gathering parts, Xenon adjustment and MOT...but here ya go...



    Really was a nice car...
    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
    ______________________________________________
    NO ONE EVER REALLY DIED

  8. #47
    Forge's Avatar
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    Minty
    sorry you had some issues with the fitting and for getting a bit of a dull reply for our sales staff ... we have fitted many of these at Forge , most with few issues , but the front ends of cars are notoriously difficult for space and small differences when fitting of intercoolers is being carried out , that said I 100% agree that we should include a statment that " some cutting or trimming of silicon hoses or alloy pipes maybe necessary to allow for the ease and complete installation of the intercooler " ..

  9. #48
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    Great thread everyone! Lots of good information.

    Has anyone other than tuffty bought and fitted the AH cooler to an S3 yet...

  10. #49
    Paul @ Unit's Avatar
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    cant wait till funds are abit beter, defo going to do this.

    2003 B6 Audi A4 Avant. 3.0 V6 Quattro Sport

  11. #50
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    Does the Forge Kit use 51mm pipework?

  12. #51
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm-baker View Post
    Does the Forge Kit use 51mm pipework?

    Yes

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  13. #52
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    Thanks for clarifying that !!

    I think il take a AH cooler off Alex shortly!

  14. #53
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    When fitting these coolers did people do away with the bar which holds the horns on? as it also holds the bonnet pull to the front pannel.
    I was thinking putting nuts on the bolts? to hold it all tight as it was??
    Also after having a look at mocking my cooler up. My god the space is limited !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






    Getting a pipe to fit behind the fog light on the drivers side will be very hard. even with 51mm. On the passenger ( cold side ) things dont look as bad as there is no towing eye fitment to concider.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

  15. #54
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    When fitting these coolers did people do away with the bar which holds the horns on? as it also holds the bonnet pull to the front pannel.
    I was thinking putting nuts on the bolts? to hold it all tight as it was??
    Go to Forges website and download the S3 FMIC fitting guide... it will give you ideas on how to sort this. If you look at the thread in its entirety, you will see that nobody keeps the centre bar and if you read through my write up (and indeed look at the Forge fitting guide) it will tell you where to put the horns and how to use the horn bracket


    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Also after having a look at mocking my cooler up. My god the space is limited !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Getting a pipe to fit behind the fog light on the drivers side will be very hard. even with 51mm. On the passenger ( cold side ) things dont look as bad as there is no towing eye fitment to concider.
    Looking at your pic I can see why you are having problems. Both the AH and Forge items are designed to run the piping in the recess under the lower grilles of the bumper. 51mm is just about as big as you can get. I fitted a Forge kit this weekend and it fits no probs. Anything with bigger outlets and/or in a different position is going to have clearance issues and I suspect you will not be able to retain the fogs either.


    The pipes need to go in the cavity indicated in this pic...


    Looking at your pic you have the outlet lined up with the centre line of the grilles... you are gonna have probs with that. Is there anyway you can mount the cooler lower? dry fit by removing the grilles and letting it sit on the bottom of the bumper then see what clearance you have.

    I'll try and take some pics of mine with the grilles removed too.

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  16. #55
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    I ended up lifting the cooler about 20mm . This ment the out/inlets sit as you see in my picture.
    I did read the thread. And saw nothing saying what was done with the 2 bolts in the bonnet catch.
    Yes the forge guide says move the horns... I just noted that like others may... when i removed the bumper i thought... what do i do about the bonnet catch.
    I am at the moment concidering reshaping a stainless 62/63 mm pipe to fit in the space allowed.
    I will not loose my fogs.
    I would sack the fmic idea first.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

  17. #56
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    Thumbs up Just finished fitting AH Intercooler

    I haved just finished fitting the AH intercooler following tufftyblokes guide.

    All the pipes from ebay MR Silicone 97
    T-Bolts from ebay 24 (they sent me the same order twice, bonus! don't know what to do with them now! )
    Intercooler AH Fabrications (spoke to him on the phone, payed via paypal 250 + 15 p&p, it was on my doorstep in 3 days, great!) = 386
    115mm 1mm cutting discs from Screwfix 7
    - not buying a 'extra' crash bar!


    This is my first major mod and took yesterday evening and this morning to complete. It took a bit of alot of fiddle around to get the driver side pipes to fit (I think I cut the 51mm 45deg down a little too much).

    You do have to remove the support from the catch to the crash bar. I replaced the retained nuts in the support with M8 Nylocks and some penny washers.

    I had to move one of the horns to the center mount on the bracket, then bent it a little bit and then sercured on the rear of the two unused passenger SMIC studs.

    I haven't got the full blown vagcom so I don't think I can log any temps etc, also I had it my car remaped by badger5 just before I fitted the FMIC so I am unable to comment about if it feels better.

    For any one pondering a remap, just do it! worth every penny!!

    I will pop some crappy phone photos on when I work out how (first post)

    Thanks again Tufftybloke for saving me a packet!

  18. #57
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    Ready to Paint







    Painted



    Bumper off



    Horns Removed



    Intercooler On



    Pipes Fitted



    Drivers Side



    Top Drivers Side



    Top Passengers Side



    Passenger side



    horns


  19. #58
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barks View Post
    Thanks again Tufftybloke for saving me a packet!
    You are welcome

    Here are a couple of pics of where the pipes are on my install...





    As you can see, the outlets from the endtank and the routing of the hoses uses the channel in the bumper under the grille. This would appear to be the only way to route the pipe work and retain the fogs and anything bigger then 51mm looks as though it will be a problem.

    While on the topic of fitment, you may remember that earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the bottom 2 screws will no longer fit as the bottom of the bumper is pushed slightly forward by the FMIC fitment. Minty noted this on his Forge FMIC and I had the same issue with mine. Anyway, I sorted this out on the FOrge I fitted this weekend by redrilling the holes and cutting a slot in the front panel to allow the captive nuts to line up..



    Hope this helps

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  20. #59
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    So the maximum size pipe work is 51mm then? Would you not be able to cut away the inside of the bumper or something along those lines to allow for a bigger diameter of pipe?
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

  21. #60
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani_B19 View Post
    So the maximum size pipe work is 51mm then? Would you not be able to cut away the inside of the bumper or something along those lines to allow for a bigger diameter of pipe?
    Its tight at 51mm, there is not much you would be able to cut away to fit a larger bore hose where it fits on mine, you would be looking to go OEM bore I/D of 60mm (or 63mm) which doesn't sound a lot but would prob represent a sizeable challenge. IIRC, Dennis (who has posted on this thread) had a cooler that was Forge/AH shaped but with larger end tank outlets... he had quitre a few probs, his thread is here...

    http://audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=72872

    So, to reiterate... Forge/AH cooler with 51mm outlets for hassle (ish) free and OEM fitment or basically hack the bumper time and see what happens.

    With time, tools and a bit of fabrication, I am sure it could be done to a standard expectable by most but I went down the 51mm route as its proven to a) fit, b) work, z) retain fogs...

    If you manage to get 60mm/63mm outlets on a proper size cooler to work in the same way, get it posted here... I might be tempted to change mine

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

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    I have a pro alloy one and the pipe runs are totally different to these. The end taks have ally pipes that come out about 4 inches, then turn backwards at 90 degrees, immediately aside the front panel. The silicone pipes then pretty much turn vertically up to the engine bay, meaning a far shorter pipe run.

    Proalloy one also does not need the bumper bar cutting, it is wider, a bit taller and presumably a bit narrower to these, so it fits inside the existing bar. The verticle bracket to the bonnet catch is trimmed but remains.

    I am wondering also, with all this bumer bar trimage, why no one just extends the bar brackets a bit, and removes or trims the foam pads so the bar is apces away from the car a bit to fit a cooler in?

  23. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by simch View Post
    I have a pro alloy one and the pipe runs are totally different to these. The end taks have ally pipes that come out about 4 inches, then turn backwards at 90 degrees, immediately aside the front panel. The silicone pipes then pretty much turn vertically up to the engine bay, meaning a far shorter pipe run.

    Proalloy one also does not need the bumper bar cutting, it is wider, a bit taller and presumably a bit narrower to these, so it fits inside the existing bar. The verticle bracket to the bonnet catch is trimmed but remains.

    I am wondering also, with all this bumer bar trimage, why no one just extends the bar brackets a bit, and removes or trims the foam pads so the bar is apces away from the car a bit to fit a cooler in?
    Dont the LCR guys run these?
    Have you got any pics of the IC fitted?
    So with the alloy pipes turned 90 degrees would this allow for larger pipe work tobe fitted?
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

  24. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by simch View Post
    I have a pro alloy one and the pipe runs are totally different to these. The end taks have ally pipes that come out about 4 inches, then turn backwards at 90 degrees, immediately aside the front panel. The silicone pipes then pretty much turn vertically up to the engine bay, meaning a far shorter pipe run.

    Proalloy one also does not need the bumper bar cutting, it is wider, a bit taller and presumably a bit narrower to these, so it fits inside the existing bar. The verticle bracket to the bonnet catch is trimmed but remains.
    Got any pics of this fitted?

    Quote Originally Posted by simch View Post
    I am wondering also, with all this bumer bar trimage, why no one just extends the bar brackets a bit, and removes or trims the foam pads so the bar is apces away from the car a bit to fit a cooler in?
    No easy way to do this I suspect. Forge cut the bar as their solution is designed to be plug and play. I am sure that there are other ways that it can be done without cutting the bar but moving the bar closer to the bumper won't fix the real prob of getting 60mm pipes in and mean you can't shrug off small parking bumps quite so easily...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  25. #64
    Dennis Moeller's Avatar
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    Ok, so I sold the car but I can still give you guys some pointers and tips on how to fit a big Forge core with 2.5" outlets, keeping fogs and without cutting your bumper/grille to pieces. I'm pretty sure though that my system kept things cooler than a standard 2" Forge (with the OE squeezed tube with the MAP sensor). I think the larger/better Dahlbck intake also worked down the temp (to some degree), but that's my opinion, I can't prove it though.

    At least I knew that particular FMIC setup worked well on other cars so I wanted that...How much it was better I honestly don't know...but it worked like it should and I didn't blow any hoses off either even though I had plain ol' jubilee's...and had a remapped engine (1.58 peek).

    First of all; fitting a fairly large Forge FMIC (see this page http://www.turbopower.no/intercooler.html, item no. FMINTE08) was a pain in the ass. Choosing 2.5" in/out of the cooler and 2.5" pipes all the way from the Turbo hot pipe to the intake manifold, we knew it could be done and still maintain a OE looking car WITH foggies but the setback was the time we spent trying out different things and solutions. Jesus I wouldn't do it ever again to be honest.
    Others have copied "my/our" setup and even they had a tough job dooing it right too.

    The biggest problem were obviously to route the pipes so that they were tucked in nice and TIGHT. You have to use two times 90 degrees at each side right away coming in/out of the cooler. You have to get the pipes inwards to the engine before you go sideways towards the wheels/fogs. You have to cut out a big chunk of plastic from each side of the big front plastic piece..No problem tho, really who needs it? It has no functions what so ever...

    We had to manufacture new brackets for the foglights. We had to turn the "lid" holding the fog light switch (the thing you open to change the bulps) on the right foglight (your drivers side) so that the switch/contact were turned 180 degrees...that thing is huge and totally in the way. Brackets were a nightmare to do because the material we had at hand were crap. But they finally came in place and were much better fitted than OE (50% of the brackets were broken on my car) when we were finished...

    We had to grind down 0.5cm from the backside of the grille surroundings for the fogs. This was because the pipes stuck out a little bit in that area even though the cooler were placed as low as the bumper allowed and so close to the radiator that we could manage. The grille surroundings build inwards the bumper when they are fitted so a dremmel come in handy...No biggie though and you couldn't see it unless you stuck your head in there!

    It took forever to adjust the pipes (going through numerous variations on pipelength and 45/90 degree bends) but that's obvious having read this thread

    We had to secure the bumper to the undertray with new and stronger screws...again not visible to the eye and not important really...

    That's it lads...get to work and fit your large Forge/AH coler with those big 2.5" bore pipes...I think "my" setup is the largest kit possible on a S3. If it's that much better than Forge's own kit...I couldn't tell
    Birdy likes this.
    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
    ______________________________________________
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  26. #65
    Forge's Avatar
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    Anodizing is difficult , although it would be the most thermal efficient way .
    You can anodize a brazed core bu there will be inconsistancies with the the final finish as the alumininum welding rods are a slightly diffrent composition to the alloy used in the air core .. some of the aircores use vaccuum applied adehesive which is very strong , but again the anodizing can damage this process, so we use a very light powder coating process to give a good universal covering , the amount of paint is so small I think it would be almost immeasureable for testing purposes....all in all powder coat will be ok ...just not to thiick ..

  27. #66
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    On the back of Tuffty's write up (See post1 page 1)...

    I got in touch with Alex @ AH Fab over the phone.

    Low and behold, I'm now sporting the exact copy of Tuffty's cooler with a write up pending.


    Pics to follow







    Joe

  28. #67
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    I assume you mean for the pipework to plumb up your cooler? I would imagine (I am no expert) that aluminium is a better heat exchanger than steel and would therefore be preferable to use for the plumbing helping to radiate heat from the charge air too and from the cooler?

    55mm is an odd size too, usually sizes are referenced by I/D as a 51mm I/D silicone hose can be a good 6-8mm thicker overall.

    Not sure you would get any silicone hoses to fit over a 55mm I/D pipe. Check availability before you commit.

    I was discussing the whole pipe size issue with Bill the other day and while my car is at his workshop, I am going to see if there is anyway the AH cooler I have couldn't be modified to have 60mm I/D outlets but do it so they essentially replicate the length and shape of the 51mm silicone elbow. A 51mm I/D piece of silicone is approx 60 (ish) mm O/D so stands to reason that if the outlets can be fabbed to follow the route of the lower hoses then it all should fit and be able to retain 60mm I/D throughout the run... Hummm... I feel a chat with Alex coming on

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  29. #68
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    Yes i ment the pipe work to plumb the cooler in,
    I was also talking over the use of alloy or stainless pipe work... i was told ( again before we start just one persons opinion ) that alloy is good at transmitting heat. but this also means it will transfer any heat from the engine to the air inside...
    Stainless however will take longer to be affected ( for better or worse ) by any heat in the local area to it.
    I have got 4 silicone reducers for the 55mm pipe to allow it to work with my 65mm or what ever it is cooler and cars standard pipe work.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

  30. #69
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    i was told ( again before we start just one persons opinion ) that alloy is good at transmitting heat. but this also means it will transfer any heat from the engine to the air inside...
    Stainless however will take longer to be affected ( for better or worse ) by any heat in the local area to it.
    True, however.... this connecting pipework runs outside the engine bay on an S3 and in a space where there is airflow (lets face it, its where the OEM SMICs used to be so you would hope air is getting there). In the engine bay its silicone from the charge pipe and silicone to the TB. The only bits really needing to be pipework are where the SMICs used to be... so I don't think its an issue personally (my opinion... lol)

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  31. #70
    Andrew@A.L.D's Avatar
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    Fitted my Ebay cooler this weekend and the guide for it was very good

    Will post pics of mine when i get a new grill fitted as the front of the car looks crap right now

  32. #71
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    glad to see people finally coming round to seeing Ah coolers work and are good and a fair price... glad your all happy glad i could point you all in the right direction ...

  33. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAD_Adamski View Post
    glad to see people finally coming round to seeing Ah coolers work and are good and a fair price... glad your all happy glad i could point you all in the right direction ...
    Although I haven't mentioned this in the original post directly, please note that if it wasn't for Adam (MAD_Adamski) I wouldn't have even known about AH Fabs and this thread may not have existed.

    Credit where credit is due, Adam was originally going to organise the prototype cooler but decided against it due to various reasons (you know who you are LOL). I still liked the idea so decided to persue it myself.

    Adam stirred the interest, I followed it up and now we have a couple of happy campers resplendent in their AH Fabs coolers...

    Thanks Adam

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  34. #73
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Yes i ment the pipe work to plumb the cooler in,
    I was also talking over the use of alloy or stainless pipe work... i was told ( again before we start just one persons opinion ) that alloy is good at transmitting heat. but this also means it will transfer any heat from the engine to the air inside...
    Stainless however will take longer to be affected ( for better or worse ) by any heat in the local area to it.
    I have got 4 silicone reducers for the 55mm pipe to allow it to work with my 65mm or what ever it is cooler and cars standard pipe work.
    aluminium is the ideal correct material... stainless steel is not.
    not everyone can weld aluminium or have the equipment to do so, more can weld stainless..
    you will have issues on beads on pipes, and trying to make them in stainless..

    stainless is a poor conductor of heat, and aluminium gives up its heat way faster and is much lighter material.

    on the subject of heat transfer, the heat transfer will always been from high temp item to lower temp... and the charge temps are higher than the engine bay aitr temps on pre-ic pipe. picking up engine heat is not significant vs the aluminiums ability to give it back.

    often where you see pipes on charge pipework in stainless is because of the skills and tools around to fabricate, not that it was the best material to use for the purpose.

    you wont see race fabrication on cars use stainless pipework.. its too heavy.
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  35. #74
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    Im assuming that the universal pipe kits on such as ebay are "monkey metal" rather than a weldable grade of aluminium?

    I have alot of these bends and thing laying around but didnt fancy them as they would involve alot of silicone joiners.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

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  36. #75
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    I would think so... If you are looking to replace your charge pipe system with aluminium then you will need some proper stock...

    Bill made a mahoosive piece for the BT Polo he is doing at the moment...

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  37. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Im assuming that the universal pipe kits on such as ebay are "monkey metal" rather than a weldable grade of aluminium?

    I have alot of these bends and thing laying around but didnt fancy them as they would involve alot of silicone joiners.

    i bought an egay fmic kit for the "crack" and what looked like aluminium pipes in the pictures were in fact shiney steel pipes, and some very gash welding

    i have bought aluminium bends off egay and they have been variable in weldability so say the least. i use forge motorsport bends as they are consistently a weldable quality. (and local to me)

    if DIY then you may not have access to aluminium welding, so joiners in silicon + alloy bends is your only method, unless you buy full kits such as forges and others....
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  38. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by djarchive View Post
    [LEFT]On the back of Tuffty's write up (See post1 page 1)...

    I got in touch with Alex @ AH Fab over the phone.

    Low and behold, I'm now sporting the exact copy of Tuffty's cooler with a write up pending.
    Not for long,he is getting his modified to how it should of been to start with.

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    eh? in what way?
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  40. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    eh? in what way?
    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post

    I was discussing the whole pipe size issue with Bill the other day and while my car is at his workshop, I am going to see if there is anyway the AH cooler I have couldn't be modified to have 60mm I/D outlets but do it so they essentially replicate the length and shape of the 51mm silicone elbow. A 51mm I/D piece of silicone is approx 60 (ish) mm O/D so stands to reason that if the outlets can be fabbed to follow the route of the lower hoses then it all should fit and be able to retain 60mm I/D throughout the run... Hummm... I feel a chat with Alex coming on

    <tuffty/>

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    ahhhhh
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