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Thread: God dam turbo !

  1. #1
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    God dam turbo !

    Well, 18mth after the conversion ( around 13k miles ) the turbo has given up the ghost, We had white smoke smelling like oil after car being left for a short while ticking over or when pulling away.
    I took the turbo off and sent it to turbo dynamics where it was built and... the news wasnt good, "the housing is cracked " the exhaust housing has a crack in it so im told , im not sure this would cause the smoke as it wouldnt allow anything in surely??
    Any how the thing now is i need either a K04 exhaust housing that i can send to TD or an idea what people think would be good? I mean ive only tried JBS stuff before and to be honest its proving a let down on the after sales , It went in 3 times for it to be checked and ... "everything is fine " was the out come.
    Has anybody got a housing first?
    I am more than happy to buy an non cracked K04 ( with the egt sensor hole)
    failing that what other potions are out there? a new unit the same as i have will cost 1250 plus vat

    thanks paul
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    CR Turbos do a decent K04 hybrid, Badger Bill has had good results with a K03s hybrid version on a Leon and I am looking into getting one for myself (K04)

    Uses RS6 internals and is about 700 for a new unit (I think)

    Give Bill a call, he knows his stuff and has dealt with JBS before. He recently mapped a Leon Cupra with a JBS05 IIRC...

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    So, as these uprated Ko4's are relatively new this last year or so.. Do you think this could be quite common or do you think you just had some bad luck?

    Do you think that an Ko4 just can't take the 300bhp+ uprated or not?

    does any one else know someone who's had a Ko4 hybrid as such last longer than 10 or so K??

  5. #4
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    I think the secret is in the mapping. i mean cracks and fast seal and bearing wear is down to... over heating and over boosting.
    i would like to hear what mileage others have done on their hybrids...
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

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  6. #5
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    I suspect mapping plays a part too... just fitting a hybrid to a std or even stage 1 mapped car won't give much more power but if you push it especially to get the figures Paul is running, something has got to give sometime... a hybrid K04 is still a K04 and you will prob be running some serious boost to get those figures...

    You have pretty much reached the flow capacity of a K04 with stage 1 map so not gonna be much more for a hybrid I would expect...

    300bhp max I would have thought is a realistic max from one (so I am lead to believe) and to get 340 odd ftlbs of torque with no FMIC you must be running some sort of boost

    Like most hings, you push that little too hard and longevity goes out the window

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  7. #6
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    SNAP!! LOL...
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    sorry to hear about this Paul,
    when you say it went in 3 times to be checked when did they examine it?


    PS could it be you needed a decent Forge FMIC
    Last edited by voorhees; 6th May 2009 at 17:58.

  9. #8
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    My previous hybrid lasted 7 months and self destructed. I hope this one lasts longer that that.
    As Tufftybloke said its pushing the K04's to the limit so any problems at all can stress it beyond anything it can cope with. Mine oversped and destructed, it sounds like S3pauls one wore out its seal premeturely.

    Housing cracks are not necesserily a problem depending one where and how deep. I have yet to see even an Low mileage OE turbo with some signs of cracking. None of which have affected the running.

    Sorry to hear you had a problem tho, i hope you can get her sorted

  10. #9
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    i took it in for... dodgy power figures on a dyno day, I said give the car a good going over,
    All was said to be well.
    I took it in for eratic boost , left it there a day, they said been out logging and its fine,
    I rang and said... its not right ... they said i was just imagining it,

    truth be told i had a new head and turbo as a result of a serious over heated turbo about a year before this. they replaced the head. ( fully rebuilt BAM ) and a low mileage turbo, The old turbo had cracked and the manifold... and the head, said to be down to bad fueling... was also running cc software...
    the boost was around 1.7 bar
    when it was acting up it did go up to 1.85 twice which was why i took it in....
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  11. #10
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    Haha. at the front mount funny !
    was also thinking... has anybody had a good time with a gt28 on a stock manifold?
    im thinking that the k04 should be able to put up with a bit more stick than it has for me, Is there anything ive done wrong? i mean is the lack of a front mount an issue? is the lack of gauges such as AFR and BOOST being fitted full time in the car a problem?
    I mean when ive sorted this problem out i would like to reduce the risk of it happening again...
    Please dont say just drive slower... im not a fruit cake, i drive normaly about 85% of the time with just the odd blast out from time to time.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

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  12. #11
    voorhees's Avatar
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    I'm interested to know the cause as well,was thinking of having one.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Haha. at the front mount funny !
    Oh yeah... just realised LOL!!!

    I was thinking of getting the CR Turbos hybrid which costs 495 + vat when you send your own in....

    Wasn't planning on running big numbers through it though. Mainly after reliability and to get rid of the occasional cavitation I get with my stage 1 CC map.

    I called CR Turbos and spoke to their turbo guy and he seems to know his stuff. They certainly don't recommend excessive boost. They suggest the turbos are good for 300bhp but much beyond that is pushing the unit beyond its already increased limits...

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    I'd put it down to to much boost, if you were getting 1.85 bar at times although I know it's a hybrid, that turbo must of been glowing through heat...not good, sorry to hear your problem, I thought about this conversion for the future too...
    revo'd

  15. #14
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    I have seen and mapped a few hybrids now.. and the k04 ones imho are being murdered by being compressor heavy and pushing too much boost. If the things could flow well enough you would'nt have that boost bottle neck, which is choked by the small runners on a stock k04 manifold and small exhaust housing.. They get really really hot.
    On the CR turbo's hybrid I mapped recently on an ibiza (leon is coming in a week or so to swap out its GT2X atp rubbish for a k04 hybrid), I mapped it to boost initial shove of 25psi, and tapered to 20-22psi which it held to 6krpm. This is on a larger bore high flow manifold on the ibiza. so more flow possible than a k04 std manifold.
    Airflows logged were 220g/s if thats some guide.

    I would'nt want to rag it any more..
    Any more boost sustained gets it all hot and bothered..

    I have heard of one of the other manufactuere hybrids spitting off a blade of its billet compressor, but some of them are being pushed beyond safe in the name of hitting the magic numbers. Less is more, else get a proper BT conversion for big smiles and play time. (at a price)

    Give CR a call, speak with Mark as he's who I have been speaking to on the specs of these things. Nice guy.
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    Sorry to hear of the failure of your turbo Paul.

    The cracked exhaust housing is a common issue with both the K03 and K04 turbos,whether they are standard or modified.We have seen low mileage K04's with cracks within the exhaust housing,some pose a problem and some dont.

    The boost being asked for was within the limits of the turbo,the fuelling was more than adequate along with the airflow and timing,all was monitored and came within specs of the software on the occasions the car came to us for poor running.

    The failure of the seals and bearings could be down to a combination of things.

    Hope you get this sorted,if there is anything that we can do just let us know.

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    so what has been the out comeof this then???
    did you find the reason behind the turbo failure?

  18. #17
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    Well,
    The car is in at JBS again.
    So i cant realy say at the moment, I will definatly post up on here when ive had "the fone call"
    Im getting sick of it all to be honest, Any fun of owning the car is rapidly fading,
    The outlay by me so far trying to sort this is getting near to 2000, Thats without the latest bill too,
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

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  19. #18
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    When the car left us it was not making more than recommended boost which was 1.8Bar.

    Paul got a boost gauge in the car and it was at 2.5Bar when the replacement turbo was fitted - this was very strange so we got the car back down to us to see if the actuator was set correctly which it was but we lowered it slightly to see if it made any odds. None at all?

    After a few hours of pondering, me and Kev were thinking what was different from the old turbo to the new one and why it was making so much more boost without the map being changed and with the map set up correctly in the first place.

    Then it hit us! An aftermarket downpipe and de-cat was fitted in between the car leaving us and turbo failing!!

    So a few more checks later and it turns out that due to downpipe being fitted the turbo can just spin up as much as it wants!!

    At the moment we have got the car here getting the mapping tweaked to suit the modifications after an hour or so of tuning/testing the car is now making not as much boost as we want so everything is looking good


    It just goes to show that after doing one modification to the next always get the car checked or have said gauges to make sure you can keep an eye on things.

    Really sorry that this has happened to you Paul but in a good way, at least you know the downpipe that you got is a real winner and has much better flow than the stock downpipe and cats!

    I will keep you updated on how the car gets along

    Mike


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  20. #19
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    Wow - what an interesting thread! Watch everyone rush out to buy an uprated downpipe and de-cat LOL!

    Glad there's finally some light at the end of the tunnel from all this.

  21. #20
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    1.8bar still seems a lot though doesn't it???

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    Fran-S3 - If I remember correctly (We did not supply or fit it) it was a Pipeworx downpipe? I am sure Paul can tell us.

    Tufftybloke - The max safe limit of the turbo is 1.8bar spike and 1.6hold, so in other words no I would also like to say that it's currently boosting just under 1.8 bar too

    We have used CR Turbos in the past for two units both of which were apparently to 'our spec' which obvisouly they did not do as they only lasted about 2-3 weeks on the cars and they let go

    Stick with the people you know and trust I say!

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    Very interesting read.

    So can you simply put a Ko4 hybrid (like the JBS05) straight onto a stage 1 remapped (but otherwise std) S3 and gain a decent performance increase?
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    i cant belive the down pipe is that restrictive to give another 0.7 bar of boost wow, paul your car must have been bloody quick after fitting the down pipe lol, well this gives me more conferdence now as im currently thinking of hybrid at the mo, really want that manifold your making at the mo though jbs as i only want to do the job once so what with the manifold and downpipe would that mean the tubo would be doing less work/less strain on the turbo at 1.8 bar??

    when is this manifold going to be ready?? do you need a guinne pig lol

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    JBS sort your website out. I wanted to browse your stock and prices but can't!!
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  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianysm View Post
    JBS sort your website out. I wanted to browse your stock and prices but can't!!
    its so annoying aint it

  27. #26
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    I've sent Mike a message about the site so hopefully will get an answer

  28. #27
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    Well this is interesting, I wonder if adding the freeflowing downpipe and cat to a stage1 map will kill the turbo quicker?
    I drove a stage3 S3, and the turbo spoolup was verymuch noticeable over my Stage1 only car.



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  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Well,
    The car is in at JBS again.
    So i cant realy say at the moment, I will definatly post up on here when ive had "the fone call"
    Im getting sick of it all to be honest, Any fun of owning the car is rapidly fading,
    The outlay by me so far trying to sort this is getting near to 2000, Thats without the latest bill too,
    S3 Paul:

    What was your boost before and after the DP being fitted?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianysm View Post
    Very interesting read.

    So can you simply put a Ko4 hybrid (like the JBS05) straight onto a stage 1 remapped (but otherwise std) S3 and gain a decent performance increase?
    It would have to be retuned as our JBS05 with just a 'normal' phase 1 will bring in more air than a stock K04 so it would run lean

    If only it was that simple!

    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    i cant belive the down pipe is that restrictive to give another 0.7 bar of boost wow, paul your car must have been bloody quick after fitting the down pipe lol, well this gives me more conferdence now as im currently thinking of hybrid at the mo, really want that manifold your making at the mo though jbs as i only want to do the job once so what with the manifold and downpipe would that mean the tubo would be doing less work/less strain on the turbo at 1.8 bar??

    when is this manifold going to be ready?? do you need a guinne pig lol
    I think we will be testing the manifold on one of our cars! Sorry! If not I will have a word and give you a shout but I think Paul might already have first dibs!

    Not sure on time scale as of yet but fingers crossed it wont be too long!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ianysm View Post
    JBS sort your website out. I wanted to browse your stock and prices but can't!!
    Sorry!! It will be up and running at the end of this month!

    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    its so annoying aint it
    End of this month!

    Quote Originally Posted by voorhees View Post
    I've sent Mike a message about the site so hopefully will get an answer
    End of this month too!

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Well this is interesting, I wonder if adding the freeflowing downpipe and cat to a stage1 map will kill the turbo quicker?
    I drove a stage3 S3, and the turbo spoolup was verymuch noticeable over my Stage1 only car.
    It could well do! I would recommend getting the car checked out, just in case!

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    S3 Paul:

    What was your boost before and after the DP being fitted?
    Bill,

    Paul is on holiday at the moment and he did not have a boost gauge fitted to the car until the old unit was pretty much in need of replacement and the new one fitted.

    As I am sure you are aware Bill, tuning does not change of its own accord so as the car was doing under 1.8bar here when it was first done on VAG-COM logs and the car was doing over 2.5bar after the downpipe fitted and turbo unit was replaced plus with ALL other possible factors that could cause this issue have been ruled out/replaced for testing. Then it can only lead to one thing.

    The downpipe.

    Mike


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    Shouldn't there be some valve or sensor that cuts or receircs the boost after it gets above certain limits? To hit 2.5bar just because of addiing a decat and DP seems odd, surely it just hits 1.8bar sooner, then the n75 / wastegate etc kick in and receirc the boost so it stays at 1.8bar only?
    What I mean is whatever controlled the max boost befroe, surely should do the same job following fitting the DP?

  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBS Sales View Post
    I think we will be testing the manifold on one of our cars! Sorry! If not I will have a word and give you a shout but I think Paul might already have first dibs!

    Not sure on time scale as of yet but fingers crossed it wont be too long!!
    ok cool, whats the fitting of the maifold like with the turbo and down pipe still in place??? as i may end up doing the turbo and downpipe then fitting the manifold after if i dont have to remove the subframe again,
    also i guess i would need another re-mapp once the maifold is on? so i might end up having to wait

  33. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBS Sales View Post

    Bill,

    Paul is on holiday at the moment and he did not have a boost gauge fitted to the car until the old unit was pretty much in need of replacement and the nange liew one fitted.

    As I am sure you are aware Bill, tuning does not change of its own accord so as the car was doing under 1.8bar here when it was first done on VAG-COM logs and the car was doing over 2.5bar after the downpipe fitted and turbo unit was replaced plus with ALL other possible factors that could cause this issue have been ruled out/replaced for testing. Then it can only lead to one thing.

    The downpipe.

    Mike
    tuning does'nt no.. adaption does, and a change of that magnitude from dp/cat change is alone is 'amazing'

    an omission not having a boost gauge on there from the beginning imho.

    at those boost levels being pushed too, the egt's have to be sky high. i know they glow bright red/orange in very short time.

    if only eveything was as simply deduced eh mike - lol
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  34. #33
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by simch View Post
    Shouldn't there be some valve or sensor that cuts or receircs the boost after it gets above certain limits? To hit 2.5bar just because of addiing a decat and DP seems odd, surely it just hits 1.8bar sooner, then the n75 / wastegate etc kick in and receirc the boost so it stays at 1.8bar only?
    What I mean is whatever controlled the max boost befroe, surely should do the same job following fitting the DP?
    REMEMBER:
    the ecu is already blind to the boost its being pushed to. 1.5bar is the map sensors max
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  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    tuning does'nt no.. adaption does, and a change of that magnitude from dp/cat change is alone is 'amazing'

    an omission not having a boost gauge on there from the beginning imho.

    at those boost levels being pushed too, the egt's have to be sky high. i know they glow bright red/orange in very short time.

    if only eveything was as simply deduced eh mike - lol
    As there are no other changes to the car it would only make sense.

    Pauls S3 has the factory EGT sensor so do not worry we kept a good eye on the EGT levels. If you look at one of the first posts we did for this we got a little more power out of a previous tune on the car but the EGT's were getting too high so we backed it off to a save level.

    Cars really can be a pain! Sorry to take this from one to another but - how is the Ibiza getting on Bill?

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  36. #35
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    Great read this thread though, useful to know what gives extra and what doesn't. I'm keen to know whats next after a stage one.

    DP and stage 2 map? Would this give a noticeable extra kick? Thinking cheaply here!!
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    automap.remapping@gmail.com
    www.eliteremaps.com

 

 

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