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Thread: FMIC

  1. #1
    vetch's Avatar
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    FMIC

    So, whats the difference between something like this:

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ladeluftkuehler-Turbo-TDI-Audi-S2-S3-A3-A4-S4-RS4-TT_W0QQitemZ120310504512QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutotei le_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item120310504512&_trksid=p391 1.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1 |240%3A1318

    ...and the Forge/Milltek etc intercoolers that they price at 700/800?

    I'm not knocking the more expensive items, or championing the cheaper one, I'm just curious to know what could account for the 600+ difference in price?
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  3. #2
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    I do see your point vetch dont get me wrong. But heres the answer to your question....For a start you get no pipes with these.....It would work out almost the same as the Forge FMIC after paying someone to make the pipes and then the quaility of the FM and the pipes wont be as good as the Forge. The Forge also has warranty i belive which is worth having on an intercooler. Youre best bet is to do some research on the prices. I think ive seen it for 604.99 somewere? i maybe wrong.

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  4. #3
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    Yeah i think its awesomegti that have got it at that price but youve then got to add vat, the cheapest place is dmp performance, think there doing it for about 650 inc vat but dont quote me
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

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    I thought the standard IC was good for 300bhp so unless you're in a very hot country or have a big turbo I'd stick to the standard one and spend your 700 on something else.
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  6. #5
    vetch's Avatar
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    Replies are appreciated gents, but I'm still none the wiser.
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    I'd expect if you had both items in front of you you would be able to see the quality difference with the naked eye, I would also expect the more expensive item to have more fins and be more effective than the cheaper item.
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  8. #7
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    Thumbs up

    I think just visually the Forge item is miles better









  9. #8
    jcb
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    i have a forge intercooler and they are without doubt very high quality.
    the welding is first class.
    They are one of the best aftermarket firms to deal with in terms of service and advice, not just sales.

    Whilst I am slightly biased I didn't pay the full price for mine, it came fitted with new hoses and recirc valve. My car was used for the development of the FMIC product in return.

    if it was my I would be looking at the same route as you and speccing out an eBay special and a set of hoses/alloy pipes.
    no way you would spend 500 on pipes/hoses.
    You can get Samco kits for 130, some Alloy pipe is relatively cheap and a load of t bar hose clamps.
    If you are handy with a hacksaw and happy to play around till it fits save you pennies and get the eBay one.

    at the end of the day the Forge kit still has to be fitted to the car anyway.
    there is very little evidence when it comes to FMIC performance.
    A cheap FMIC is still better than a SMIC
    Last edited by jcb; 27th April 2009 at 17:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcb View Post
    at the end of the day the Forge kit still has to be fitted to the car anyway.
    there is very little evidence when it comes to FMIC performance.

    Fitting it takes two hours apparently and I think FMIC performance speaks for itself really as the engine would not be overheating or am I missing something?

    Also you take your chances with removing/cutting the crash bar as the Forge kit supplies a modded bar tried and tested.

  11. #10
    jcb
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    sorry, wasn't clear. meant to say there is very little evidence of performance of one FMIC up against another FMIC
    would love someone to spend the time showing that the expensive ones don't work any better than the eBay ones!
    they are definitely much better than SMIC's.
    My inlet temps went down significantly and fuel economy went up by 2-4mpg at 80mph on a stock engine.


    My bumper bar has a notch out of it, but to be honest I am not sure what protection it will offer as your new FMIC is toast as soon as you have a light front end smash anyway.

  12. #11
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    Talking

    There might not be much difference but Forge have spent a lot on R & D on these and just look at the welds compared to the ebay one...would be interesting to test both side by side but whos going to do that now EssThree doesn't have his S3.

    The only concern about the crash bar I had is if you chopped it yourself it would not be as strong as the Forge one not to protect the FMIC

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 HODGE View Post
    The Forge also has warranty i belive which is worth having on an intercooler.
    Why is it?fit it and forget it as long as its half decent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Westle View Post
    I thought the standard IC was good for 300bhp so unless you're in a very hot country or have a big turbo I'd stick to the standard one and spend your 700 on something else.
    Why would he need a big intercooler with a big turbo?

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by james0808 View Post
    Why is it?fit it and forget it as long as its half decent.
    Well im sure if you paid 700 you would be more then happy to get it replaced on warrenty then fork out more money. If you live somewere were its high climate then you'd be suprised how easy the pipes/weilding can suffer.

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    Anyone who has driven the S3 hard over a prolonged period should have noticed the heat soak and reduced power when running the standard ic's. I find them quite bad for it.

    2003 Audi S3 + Go faster bits

  16. #15
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    So... good looking welds seal better than still sealed not so nice looking jobies??
    I sell intercoolers ant to be honest alot of people i suply are running big power cars . The forge set up doesnt look that effective to me. i watched one be fitted by a very good company from start to finish and it was not as neet as i hoped. I will be modding a crash rail and welding in a strenthener plate, its just the time taken to do this that has stopped me so far.
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  17. #16
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    I have one of those ebay intercoolers, I haven't got around to fitting it yet but Bill at Badger 5 is going to make up some brackets so I can mount it up and work out what piping I need.

    Hoping to get a chance to fit it in the next few weeks but getting time off from work is tricky at the moment and I haven't got the time at the moment.

    I will try and do a before and after logging run in VAGCOM to see if there is an appreciable difference in air temp. My car has only had a remap so no big turbo as such but I am considering a hybrid K04 from CR Turbos so hoping the FMIC will be helpful then.

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  18. #17
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    What are the dimentions of the cooler your going to fit if you dont mind me asking?
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  19. #18
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    the quality of the forge item looks very impressive but for more then double the price of making up one for yourself using universal parts. i have made up my own universal one and its definanlty an improvment over the standard setup, im dubtfull wether any one could tell the difference purely from driving a car if its the forge item or a universal item, maybe a universal might heatsoak quicker on a track but for most if not everyone on here id say a universal is definantly up for the job

  20. #19
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    On a track day at silverstone my car did suffer from heat soak as it was a hot muggy day. after 2 or so laps the car felt almost faulty. but has just down to a massive raise in the intake temps from working the turbo hard.
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

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  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    What are the dimentions of the cooler your going to fit if you dont mind me asking?
    All the info is here... the one I have is the same as this only I bought it from their ebay shop... THink it worked out at about 90 posted at the time.

    http://shop.wiltec.info/product_info...R-No--001.html


    Core is 600x300x76

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  22. #21
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    Bloody hell, thats big !
    well ive got one that size on the mrs's nissan skyline and it works a treat. Please post pictures as you get on with it.
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  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    So... good looking welds seal better than still sealed not so nice looking jobies??
    I sell intercoolers ant to be honest alot of people i suply are running big power cars . The forge set up doesnt look that effective to me.
    yes good looking welds are generally sealed but welds which look like a first week apprentice have put down are always the suspect ones ( I am an ASME 9 coded welder with twenty years experiance in the industry)

    Forge FMICs are the best around I thought so why do they not seem effective?

  24. #23
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    do you still have the standard smic's though as they are prone to heatsoking anyway???


    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    On a track day at silverstone my car did suffer from heat soak as it was a hot muggy day. after 2 or so laps the car felt almost faulty. but has just down to a massive raise in the intake temps from working the turbo hard.


    Quote Originally Posted by voorhees View Post
    yes good looking welds are generally sealed but welds which look like a first week apprentice have put down are always the suspect ones ( I am an ASME 9 coded welder with twenty years experiance in the industry)

    Forge FMICs are the best around I thought so why do they not seem effective?
    i think the forge item is probably one of the best but for the cost etc its hard to justify imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    i think the forge item is probably one of the best but for the cost etc its hard to justify imo
    true

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Bloody hell, thats big !
    well ive got one that size on the mrs's nissan skyline and it works a treat.
    I was quite surprised at its size when it turned up tbh... wasn't sure if I wanted to fit it or just bung 4 wheels on it and drive that instead!!

    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    Please post pictures as you get on with it.
    No probs, will sort that out when I get around to fitting it

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  27. #26
    S£'s Avatar
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    God another Forge vs custom FMIC thread!!!

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westle View Post
    I thought the standard IC was good for 300bhp so unless you're in a very hot country or have a big turbo I'd stick to the standard one and spend your 700 on something else.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong!
    The standard IC is barely up to the job of cooling the charge at standard boost...whack the boost up, you turn the turbo into a heat pump (it's so small it struggles to move the volume of air required to fill the cylinders with the required air at higher revs...so it has to work MUCH harder, and compression adds heat), the ICs can't cope, inlet temperatures rise and the ECU backs the timing off to protect the engine giving massive drops in power.

    I was seeing aup to 75 degrees C on a 1.2 bar peak map with standard ICs.
    Not good enough...
    One run = OK, 2 runs = heat soak, more = performance dropping like a stone.

    After fitting a Forge built IC (actually a Star Performance FMIC but built by Forge) I was seeing 20ish degrees C at the inlet manifold with 1.85+ bar of boost.
    You do the maths....


    With a BT car, the turbo is bigger so can move much more air, meaning it has to work less hard to fill the cylinders, adding much less heat.
    A BT car running 300 BHP can get away with std ICs...a tuned K04 S3 running 270+ BHP can't, in my view.


    A FMIC won't add any power. It just won't.
    It won't make the engine produce any more power than it will on a cold day as is.
    But what it will do, is allow the engine to make the same amount of power for longer (less heatsoak) and more of the time weather wise.


    Iif you think your S3 has 265-270 BHP and it's running standard ICs...realistically, it hasn't...not for more than 10 mins or so...then things drop off.
    With a decent FMIC you make the power pretty much all the time on the road.
    although track work will reduce performance as the rest of the engine just gets too damn hot...but for road use, you'll see full power all day every day, in my experience.

    Regardless of the cost...it's one of the best things you can do.

    How much better the Forge unit is than anything else is debatable...but for your 700 you get an impecably made product, that fits first time, works well...and comes with Forge's back up.


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  29. #28
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    Yes i am still running the standard side mounts and boy do i need to sort that out. The drop off in power was daft!

    With regards the welds.
    The coolers ive suplied to people are tested before they leave the factory so i trust the welds, Never had a come back yet, I know a nice looking weld is always going to be more reasureing but a good strong weld isnt always pretty is it? I will take a picture of one i have laying around here... see if its that bad people would rather pay 700 than 75 for one.
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  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    S3 kev
    Yes i am still running the standard side mounts and boy do i need to sort that out. The drop off in power was daft!

    With regards the welds.
    The coolers ive suplied to people are tested before they leave the factory so i trust the welds, Never had a come back yet, I know a nice looking weld is always going to be more reasureing but a good strong weld isnt always pretty is it? I will take a picture of one i have laying around here... see if its that bad people would rather pay 700 than 75 for one.
    Paul, I'd be very interested in purchasing one? Are you able to supply the connecting pipework or failing that info or sizes/shapes needed?

    Many thanks
    Audi S3

  31. #30
    jcb
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    lets face it at Euro 150 you can afford for it to fail a couple of times and still have money in pocket before you get to the 7-800 a high end product is going to cost.

    You just need one hefty stone through the front grill and that is not covered by your forge warranty.
    Its a very vulnerable spot, I would not want close to a grands sitting behind some plastic mesh without worrying!

  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post

    I was seeing aup to 75 degrees C on a 1.2 bar peak map with standard ICs.
    Not good enough...
    One run = OK, 2 runs = heat soak, more = performance dropping like a stone.

    After fitting a Forge built IC (actually a Star Performance FMIC but built by Forge) I was seeing 20ish degrees C at the inlet manifold with 1.85+ bar of boost.
    You do the maths....

    .
    when i fitted my fmic i was seeing a rise in boost, 18 psi with the smic and then i got 24 psi after i fitted my fmic but after a couple of months my boost dropped off and now peak boost is back to 18-19 psi is there something wroung??? i have been trying to find out for some time, im meeting up with someone on here to check actuall boost v requested boost via vag-com but is there a problem???

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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    when i fitted my fmic i was seeing a rise in boost, 18 psi with the smic and then i got 24 psi after i fitted my fmic but after a couple of months my boost dropped off and now peak boost is back to 18-19 psi is there something wroung??? i have been trying to find out for some time, im meeting up with someone on here to check actuall boost v requested boost via vag-com but is there a problem???
    I don't see how changing an IC can alter boost. Unless you either have a leak now, or had one before.
    The volume of an IC can/will accept lag...but not boost.

    Actual boost vs requested boost is very interesting...and often not matched. Especially as the MAP sensor only reads up to something like 2740mb absolute (with atmospheric reading 1000mb ish) so if you are running very high boost, you can't measure it anyway....so there will always be a discrepancy.


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  34. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Wrong, wrong, wrong!

    Cheers for the explanation Ess. I'm learning all the time
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  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    I don't see how changing an IC can alter boost. Unless you either have a leak now, or had one before.
    The volume of an IC can/will accept lag...but not boost.

    Actual boost vs requested boost is very interesting...and often not matched. Especially as the MAP sensor only reads up to something like 2740mb absolute (with atmospheric reading 1000mb ish) so if you are running very high boost, you can't measure it anyway....so there will always be a discrepancy.
    ok so maybe the extra boost from fitting the fmic was from the ecu adapting?? now its settled again. im pretty sure i dont have any leaks as i have had a very good look over the whole system and i cant hear any boost leaks when driving, ive also replace vac pipes which look tired just incase.
    so is there no point in seeing what vag-com says about actual v requested boost?? i have a snap-on scanner which dosent flag up any codes either.
    so when you said about your raise in boost does that mean you had a custom mapp done after fitting the fmic? if so maybe i should get this done as i only have a phase 1 cc

  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 HODGE View Post
    Well im sure if you paid 700 you would be more then happy to get it replaced on warrenty then fork out more money. If you live somewere were its high climate then you'd be suprised how easy the pipes/weilding can suffer.
    I am not daft enough to spend 700 on an intercooler.
    I have had lots of intercoolers in the past on so many different cars and never had any welds fail.
    Where would i need to live to see this happen?

  37. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    ok so maybe the extra boost from fitting the fmic was from the ecu adapting?? now its settled again.
    Can't see it...unless you had a leak and the boost was just getting closer to what was being requested.
    The ECU will only try to control boost around what it's looking at in the boost tables...if they don't change, you shouldn't get any more.


    im pretty sure i dont have any leaks as i have had a very good look over the whole system and i cant hear any boost leaks when driving, ive also replace vac pipes which look tired just incase.
    Fair enough...I can't explain the rise you saw, but it sounds fine to me.


    so is there no point in seeing what vag-com says about actual v requested boost?? i have a snap-on scanner which dosent flag up any codes either.
    It's up to you...although I'd not worry about it.
    If it's what it was before the FMIC, there is nothing wrong.


    so when you said about your raise in boost does that mean you had a custom mapp done after fitting the fmic? if so maybe i should get this done as i only have a phase 1 cc
    Correct.
    I went from a 1.2 bar peak map, to 1.4 bar peak map + FMIC, to aggressive 1.6 bar peak map with other things considered (cats, exhaust, uprated SMIC etc).

    A new map will let you run more boost...which will give you more torque primarily. The added cooling may let you run more ignition advance to gain a few BHP top end too, after custom mapping...but that will be dependant on how efficient your IC set up is, as the turbo will be a heat pump by the time you up the boost again....but in real terms, the gains are small.

    The FMIC just makes sure the power you have is available for longer, rather than heatsoaking after 10 mins.


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  38. #37
    S3 HODGE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james0808 View Post
    I am not daft enough to spend 700 on an intercooler.
    I have had lots of intercoolers in the past on so many different cars and never had any welds fail.
    Where would i need to live to see this happen?
    Didnt say you were daft enough to spend 700 on an intercooler and fair play if you havent had any weild proplem's on previous intercooler's......The point i was trying to make was that it does happen whether its the best weilding or not and obviusly if you live in a country with high climate like Australlia for example its more likey to happen....
    I havent signed up to Audi-sport.net because i think im a big no it all like alot of people on here (not pointing any finger's), I just take pride in my car and like to talk about cars in general....I dont think there's many threads on the A3/S3 8L chassis section that does'nt end up in a huge argument......

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  39. #38
    s3_kev's Avatar
    Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post

    Can't see it...unless you had a leak and the boost was just getting closer to what was being requested.
    The ECU will only try to control boost around what it's looking at in the boost tables...if they don't change, you shouldn't get any more.

    .
    i have been thinking since you said about its notpossible to gain any boost from an fmic, i had a problem with my n249 valve as the car was surging quite badly so i have bypassed it and since then its run fine so is it possible that the n249 failed and so my boost was not being stopped from over boosting as thats the job of the n249 correct?
    cheers for your input perhaps im looking for a fault thats not there

  40. #39
    voorhees's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    I will take a picture of one i have laying around here... see if its that bad people would rather pay 700 than 75 for one.
    if you are supplying crash bar,hoses,IC,pipes,jubilee clips for 75 I'll have one mate

  41. #40
    hud at ye bam

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    Quote Originally Posted by s3_kev View Post
    i have been thinking since you said about its notpossible to gain any boost from an fmic, i had a problem with my n249 valve as the car was surging quite badly so i have bypassed it and since then its run fine so is it possible that the n249 failed and so my boost was not being stopped from over boosting as thats the job of the n249 correct?
    cheers for your input perhaps im looking for a fault thats not there

    Where/how were you measuring your boost levels? If anything, I'd expect to see a pressure drop with fitting a bigger intercooler.
    [/sarcasm]

 

 
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