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Thread: Induction Kit

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    Induction Kit

    Yeah I know power gains arent what the adverts say but I fancy sticking an induction kit on my A3 (more for sound really)

    Anyone got any recommendations that dont cost the earth?. One of the lads at work has a single cone green cotton one on his MkIV Golf 1.8T and he seems to think its pretty good, anyone else got an opinion on them?

    Ta

    Tom
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    ive got a green cotton dynatwist on mine and i can notice the car pics up slightly better than with the aiir box. dont think it was worth the 200 though. theres alot of heat goin on in the audi engine bay so if you do go for one i'd say get an enclosed one or you'll be losing power

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    Yeah id agree, heard bad reports that some induction kits end up taking in more hot air than anything else and you lose power. An uprated panel filter or an enclosed induction kit may be better.

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    Yeah, I'm guessing there's going to be a bit of heat under the bonnet which is why I'm guessing Audi shoved the intake through the wheel arch. I dont fancy having some shadey bit of silver foil intake pipe lashed onto anything either.

    Green panel cotton filter and a smoothed airbox then?.
    2000 Audi A3 1.8T Sport - Custom Code Phase 1 remap / Custom Stainless Catback Exhuast / MKII 18" RS4 Reps / Wietec Ultra GT40mm / KW ARB's / Forge TIP / Forge 007 / Green Panel Filter / EBC Greenstuff pads / 312mm S3 front brake upgrade / Aero Wipers / LED Interior Lights / LED Side Repeaters / Face Lift Rear Lights and covered in Dodo Juice

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    Green cotton panel and smoothed, drilled airbox will probably be your best bet mate.

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    i have a bmc Ltd one, cant fault it, but a normal one is around 159 i think, but enclosed so that u dont get engine bay heat, cooler running temps it the aim.

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    Well I've just been given a pipercross cone filter by a mate that he got ages ago and never fitted. I think I'll lob it on and see what all the fuss is about, I've had a look at it and I think I have enough bits and bobs in the garage to get it on.

    If its crap I'll sling it being as it didnt cost me anything (apart from 2 jubilee clips I might not have).

    T
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    Well its on and its pretty loud!. Not had chance to go for a drive yet so I'll see what its like tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nilz18t View Post
    Green cotton panel and smoothed, drilled airbox will probably be your best bet mate.
    Drilled?
    No, no...

    The last thing you want to do to a 1.8T with it's marginal IC set-up is to add more heat into the inlet air from within the uber-hot engine bay.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Drilled?
    No, no...

    The last thing you want to do to a 1.8T with it's marginal IC set-up is to add more heat into the inlet air from within the uber-hot engine bay.

    So a cone type filters not the way forward then I presume?.

    I was thinking about that as I was fitting it but then thought does it matter being as when the intake air goes through the turbo its going to get heated up anyway (due to the exhaust side of the turbo being so hot).

    Would warm air from under the bonnet really cause that much of an issue considering it gets heated up so much further down the line anyway?

    I'm fully prepared to be educated!.

    T
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    Quote Originally Posted by nilz18t View Post
    Green cotton panel and smoothed, drilled airbox will probably be your best bet mate.
    That's what I have and I love it. Sounds great not to loud but u can subtly hear the DV more and it growling a bit more. If anything I've noticed a better pickup... certainly no loss in performance. Yet.
    Last edited by fran-s3; 2nd April 2009 at 22:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L0WRiDE View Post
    i have a bmc Ltd one, cant fault it, but a normal one is around 159 i think, but enclosed so that u dont get engine bay heat, cooler running temps it the aim.
    I had the BMC CDA on my S3, with some modification of the existing airbox bracket that goes into the side wing to get cooler air in, I was able to keep it away from the heat of the engine as much as possible, they come with the flexible wide tube that you can with some flexing of muscles squash down a little to go round the wing bracket so its sealed fairly well, seemed to be better than the stock & others I looked into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fran-s3 View Post
    That's what I have and I love it. Sounds great not to loud but u can subtly hear the DV more and it growling a bit more. If anything I've noticed a better pickup... certainly no loss in performance. Yet.
    I have a stock DV (as far as I'm aware) and I can hear it much MUCH more now its got the different filter on it, it really growls when its under load too but its nice and quiet when cruising about.

    Its a pipercross cone filter which sits where the standard airbox used to sit attached to the MAF by a rubber sleeve and jubilee clips I had kicking around. Total cost about 3.00 (for the clips)....am I about to have my 'bargain airfilter induction kit thunder'.............stolen?!
    2000 Audi A3 1.8T Sport - Custom Code Phase 1 remap / Custom Stainless Catback Exhuast / MKII 18" RS4 Reps / Wietec Ultra GT40mm / KW ARB's / Forge TIP / Forge 007 / Green Panel Filter / EBC Greenstuff pads / 312mm S3 front brake upgrade / Aero Wipers / LED Interior Lights / LED Side Repeaters / Face Lift Rear Lights and covered in Dodo Juice

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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    So a cone type filters not the way forward then I presume?.
    I don't believe so, no.
    Sucking in hot air isn't good...it can cause real hesitation when in traffic when the inlet system starts to heat up due anyway...never mind because it's sucking in hot air.
    Have you measured the temperature under the bonnet of an S3?
    Easily 70-80 degrees C seen at times...lovely. Just what an engine needs.


    I was thinking about that as I was fitting it but then thought does it matter being as when the intake air goes through the turbo its going to get heated up anyway (due to the exhaust side of the turbo being so hot).
    The turbo will add 'x' amount of heat proportional to boost it's producing.

    The smaller the turbo, and the harder you work it, the more heat (which is why BT cars can run standard ICs just fine)
    If the air going in is 20 degrees, then it can easily be 80+ after the crappy ICs, leading to the ECU cutting back the timing and reducing power.
    Better ICs give lower temperatures at the inlet manifold...which is good, and why everyone rushes out to fit FMICs...
    But feed the inlet with 60 degree air...and what's the point of better ICs?

    Ideally, cold inlet air and better ICs = more power, more of the time....so surely hot air in = less power?
    I believe so...


    Would warm air from under the bonnet really cause that much of an issue considering it gets heated up so much further down the line anyway?

    I'm fully prepared to be educated!.
    I'd say so...
    For a start you are giving the marginal std ICs more work to do...which isn't good.
    Or you fit a big FMIC and cancel out some of the good it does by feeding the engine hot air. Wise idea!

    So, cold air in = less for the ICs to do = more power.
    Surely that's no bad thing?


    And before anyone goes on about racing cars having big cone filters exposed...yes they do. But they don't sit in traffic, and generally have engines that don't heatsoak like 1.8Ts do.


    In general, engines like air as cold as possible.
    Why do you think your S3 always feels quicker on a frosty morning?

    Consequently, feeding it hot air, gives the opposite result. Sort of de-tuning, if you will.
    Not good.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    I don't believe so, no.
    Sucking in hot air isn't good...it can cause real hesitation when in traffic when the inlet system starts to heat up due anyway...never mind because it's sucking in hot air.
    Have you measured the temperature under the bonnet of an S3?
    Easily 70-80 degrees C seen at times...lovely. Just what an engine needs.




    The turbo will add 'x' amount of heat proportional to boost it's producing.

    The smaller the turbo, and the harder you work it, the more heat (which is why BT cars can run standard ICs just fine)
    If the air going in is 20 degrees, then it can easily be 80+ after the crappy ICs, leading to the ECU cutting back the timing and reducing power.
    Better ICs give lower temperatures at the inlet manifold...which is good, and why everyone rushes out to fit FMICs...
    But feed the inlet with 60 degree air...and what's the point of better ICs?

    Ideally, cold inlet air and better ICs = more power, more of the time....so surely hot air in = less power?
    I believe so...




    I'd say so...
    For a start you are giving the marginal std ICs more work to do...which isn't good.
    Or you fit a big FMIC and cancel out some of the good it does by feeding the engine hot air. Wise idea!

    So, cold air in = less for the ICs to do = more power.
    Surely that's no bad thing?


    And before anyone goes on about racing cars having big cone filters exposed...yes they do. But they don't sit in traffic, and generally have engines that don't heatsoak like 1.8Ts do.


    In general, engines like air as cold as possible.
    Why do you think your S3 always feels quicker on a frosty morning?

    Consequently, feeding it hot air, gives the opposite result. Sort of de-tuning, if you will.
    Not good.

    Cheers for that, it all seems to make sense to me, colder air is good as it gives the intercooler more of a fighting chance.

    I'll run how it is for now and then on payday order a BMC one I think and get the ducting going through the wing to keep things nice and cool, something like this perhaps would be best...

    http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pag...product=505616



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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    Cheers for that, it all seems to make sense to me, colder air is good as it gives the intercooler more of a fighting chance.

    I'll run how it is for now and then on payday order a BMC one I think and get the ducting going through the wing to keep things nice and cool, something like this perhaps would be best...

    http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pag...product=505616

    Every days a school day!.

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    For the record...there is absolutely nothing wrong with the standard airbox!
    Anything else (below around 300 BHP) is just bluff...smoke and mirrors...bling!

    Ideally, feed the standard airbox or a sealed filter like that with a supply of air larger in diameter than the TIP/MAF and one which picks up the cool air from a source of cold dense air at as high a relative pressure as possible.

    On the S3, the space just in front of the standard ICs is where these areas of relatively high pressure exist, so Audi do know something about IC placement and bumper aerodynamics!
    OK...it's only in/WG of positive pressure...but it's positive pressure none the less.

    With an S3 fitted with a FMIC, you can utilise the hole where the standard IC pipework used to sit to get a 4" duct down into this area behind the front bumper to make best use of this cold, slightly positive pressure supply, and feed that past the battery to the airbox.

    You never know...you may be able to get a duct along the same route in an A3 as it hasn't got the passender side SMIC to worry about.

    Either way, a large cold air feed (at slightly positive pressure if possible) fed through an insulating hose (not a shiny metal one!) to a heat insulating airbox/sealed fileter is far better than an open cone filter sitting in 60 degrees C air...or even a drilled airbox sucking in some warm air.


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  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    For the record...there is absolutely nothing wrong with the standard airbox!
    Anything else (below around 300 BHP) is just bluff...smoke and mirrors...bling!

    Ideally, feed the standard airbox or a sealed filter like that with a supply of air larger in diameter than the TIP/MAF and one which picks up the cool air from a source of cold dense air at as high a relative pressure as possible.

    On the S3, the space just in front of the standard ICs is where these areas of relatively high pressure exist, so Audi do know something about IC placement and bumper aerodynamics!
    OK...it's only in/WG of positive pressure...but it's positive pressure none the less.

    With an S3 fitted with a FMIC, you can utilise the hole where the standard IC pipework used to sit to get a 4" duct down into this area behind the front bumper to make best use of this cold, slightly positive pressure supply, and feed that past the battery to the airbox.

    You never know...you may be able to get a duct along the same route in an A3 as it hasn't got the passender side SMIC to worry about.

    Either way, a large cold air feed (at slightly positive pressure if possible) fed through an insulating hose (not a shiny metal one!) to a heat insulating airbox/sealed fileter is far better than an open cone filter sitting in 60 degrees C air...or even a drilled airbox sucking in some warm air.

    Fair do's, but I'm being a bit of a tart and I miss the noise my old car made so its mainly for the sound of it (silly I know).

    I'll have a good look around and what sort of room I have and try and work out a route where I can get hose through to an enclosed one and see where that takes me.

    Nothing lost so far as the one I've put on today only set me back the cost of the jubilee clips and I have the standard airbox if I get an trouble in the mean time.
    2000 Audi A3 1.8T Sport - Custom Code Phase 1 remap / Custom Stainless Catback Exhuast / MKII 18" RS4 Reps / Wietec Ultra GT40mm / KW ARB's / Forge TIP / Forge 007 / Green Panel Filter / EBC Greenstuff pads / 312mm S3 front brake upgrade / Aero Wipers / LED Interior Lights / LED Side Repeaters / Face Lift Rear Lights and covered in Dodo Juice

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    Would fitting a PFTE gasket/plate between the head and inlet manifold help, i used to have a williams clio and heatsoak on that was terrible and after fitting the PTFE it was much better. has anyone done this?? I know it doesnt cure sucking in hot air in the first place, but its one thing that will help.

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    Read through this lot and it talks about mods to do on your standard airbox and the results that the guy got:

    http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0652
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    Let me know how you get on as i'm also thinking of getting a BMC CDA for my A3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Westle View Post
    Read through this lot and it talks about mods to do on your standard airbox and the results that the guy got:

    http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0652

    Hmmm, interesting. Not sure I'm happy taking the screens out of my MAF though!.
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    what difference would it make having them there or not..... cant honestly see a problem with removing them unless something was able to fly past the filter which i think would be nigh on impossible?
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    I'm up for giving it a try and will do this weekend if I get time. I also want to smoth the fins out of the air box either this weekend or next, my list of jobs is growing by the day!

    When I do it i'll log the maf reading with VAGCOM and let you all know how it goes.
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    If I manage to get my driveshaft / gearbox sorted out I am going to treat the S3 to a smooth airbox this weekend. A friend has smoothed and drilled the airbox on his A3 1.8T and I have to say I love the sound. However I have definitely noticed the difference in performance between running my car on warm day and driving late on a cold night, so I think I might leave the drilling out. Would drilling the airbox produce an effect as pronounced as this?

    Also, from reading the link, it appears removing the 2 screens on the MAF provides a significant gain. Are there any downsides to this? Why would Audi put them there if they are detrimental to performance - they cant really impact NVH tests I wouldnt have thought?

    Finally, it seems that on his car improving the airflow by modifying the intake system didnt really have the positive effect it should due to the ECU pegging back the car would this also happen on our cars or would our cars provide enough fuel to keep the car (and its newfound supply of air) happy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1animal1 View Post
    what difference would it make having them there or not..... cant honestly see a problem with removing them unless something was able to fly past the filter which i think would be nigh on impossible?

    hmmmmm, good point. I dont think you would notice any difference though. I've just had the intake off mine to tidy a few bits up and had a look at the MAF screens....to be honest I dont think its worth it.

    Just fitted a 007 DV too,...which was nice. However the small pipe from the top was really brittle so just snapped as I moved it to get the clamps undone. Made good with some small fuel pipe I had kicking around so we'll see how that turns out.
    2000 Audi A3 1.8T Sport - Custom Code Phase 1 remap / Custom Stainless Catback Exhuast / MKII 18" RS4 Reps / Wietec Ultra GT40mm / KW ARB's / Forge TIP / Forge 007 / Green Panel Filter / EBC Greenstuff pads / 312mm S3 front brake upgrade / Aero Wipers / LED Interior Lights / LED Side Repeaters / Face Lift Rear Lights and covered in Dodo Juice

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    The guy in that link got a significant change in his maf readings by removing the mesh shields as he got improved air flow but I doubt it will be very noticable from inside the car. He may have made a few extra BHP but its not going to rock your world. You might notice an improvement on a hot day with a smoothed airbox and no maf shields then with the standard setup.

    Its all about trial and error. If I dont get much of an improvement at least i've tried.
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    just a thought.. my airbox has the ignition amp on the side (not sure about s3 owners) if you remove the standard airbox where do people plan to mount the ign amp, as its on the airbox via a heatsink to keep it cold - ultimatly to make it last longer.

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    The bit that appealed to me was him commenting how further up the rev range felt better. Mine feels great low-to-mid range, but after about 4500rpm it feels like it's not quite as interested. If removing the screens won't cause any damage I think I'll have a go when I smooth the airbox to see if this helps at all.

    Not expecting a big difference but even a slight gain would be good, and as Westle says it's good to know you've tried one more option! There's also the psychological factor - just knowing my car is being (even slightly) held back makes me want to change it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ash_pearce View Post
    just a thought.. my airbox has the ignition amp on the side (not sure about s3 owners) if you remove the standard airbox where do people plan to mount the ign amp, as its on the airbox via a heatsink to keep it cold - ultimatly to make it last longer.
    I fabricated a little L bracket and bolted mine to the airbox mount on the suspension turret.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveo_A3_1.8t View Post
    Would fitting a PFTE gasket/plate between the head and inlet manifold help, i used to have a williams clio and heatsoak on that was terrible and after fitting the PTFE it was much better. has anyone done this?? I know it doesnt cure sucking in hot air in the first place, but its one thing that will help.
    I fitted one of these so called 'power gaskets' which promised the world in power gains from cooler air...and gave nothing by way of a power gain - in fact the boost leaks it caused made it loose power!

    The inlet manifold was cooler to touch though...but it made no difference to the power as the air is passing through so quick that it doesn't seem to take in much heat from the manifold.


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  32. #31
    Ess_Three's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1animal1 View Post
    what difference would it make having them there or not..... cant honestly see a problem with removing them unless something was able to fly past the filter which i think would be nigh on impossible?
    There is some argument to suggest the screens and plastic things give laminar flow accross the sensor for a better measurement...
    I don't know.

    All I do know is that I de-screened mine and it failed a week later.
    Maybe I hit it by accident and damaged it.
    Maybe not.

    I left it alone after that...


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  33. #32
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    has any one got a pic of a smooth air box as never seen one before and interested to see what they look like


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  34. #33
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    They don't look much different to standard on an S3 to be honest...all I did was smooth out where I fitted a 4" inlet hose and sidy up any moulding flash etc.

    They are pretty good standard.

    Not sure about the 1.8T airbox.


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  35. #34
    A3Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    They don't look much different to standard on an S3 to be honest...all I did was smooth out where I fitted a 4" inlet hose and sidy up any moulding flash etc.

    They are pretty good standard.

    Not sure about the 1.8T airbox.

    I had a look at the inside of my standard airbox and to be honest....there doesnt appear to be much there to get in the way....only very small fins at the very bottom of it (thats a 1.8T)
    2000 Audi A3 1.8T Sport - Custom Code Phase 1 remap / Custom Stainless Catback Exhuast / MKII 18" RS4 Reps / Wietec Ultra GT40mm / KW ARB's / Forge TIP / Forge 007 / Green Panel Filter / EBC Greenstuff pads / 312mm S3 front brake upgrade / Aero Wipers / LED Interior Lights / LED Side Repeaters / Face Lift Rear Lights and covered in Dodo Juice

  36. #35
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    Well I took the plunge over the weekend and decided to drill and smooth the airbox. I thought carefully about what I wanted the car to end up like, and decided the added bonus of really being able to hear the turbo spool and associated whistles and whooshes would be worth the downsides of a drilled airbox.

    As well as the smoothing / drilling I also had the MAF screens mentioned in the link removed. Finally, it turned out the dump valve had a split in it, which was affecting performance slightly, so that was blanked off altogether.

    The difference, in my opinion, is amazing. First off, the sound is fantastic really what the car should have sounded like I think. It has a lovely growl under load now, and the variety of noises the car makes when the throttle is closed are great. It really gives the car the aural character it deserves. It may just be me, but I swear the exhaust is a fraction louder too.

    Noise aside, the car feels more responsive now and is smoother all the way through the rev range. Previously my car felt great up to about 4500rpm, but tailed off considerably after that. Although this is still true, the effect is now much less it feels so much more eager to swing round to 6000+rpm and the shove in the back doesnt lessen now until more like 5500rpm. Again, this has made a big difference to the drive.

    To say Im happy is an understatement. I only wish I had completed each part individually to see what actually produced the gains. I guess the DV could have been leaking boost, but also have a feeling removing the MAF screens helped. We also found a massive lump of foam in the filter, which seemed to be restricting flow.

    Id be really interested in hearing how other people have gotten on with this mod? Also, Ess_Three, when you say it failed after removing the screens, are you referring to the MAF? What remedial work was needed?
    2003 S3 225 // Revo Stage 1 / Milltek Cat back / Koni Adjustable Suspension / Forge Tie Rods

  37. #36
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    [quote=S3 Adj;710847]the dump valve had a split in it, which was affecting performance slightly, so that was blanked off altogether.
    quote]

    Are you now not running a DV/recirc valve? Didn't you get any lights come up on the dash!

    Did you take any pics of your smothed airbox?
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  38. #37
    1animal1's Avatar
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    broken maf = new maf, bit more expensive too as you wont be able to take your existing one on to swap
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  39. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Adj View Post
    To say Im happy is an understatement. I only wish I had completed each part individually to see what actually produced the gains. I guess the DV could have been leaking boost, but also have a feeling removing the MAF screens helped. We also found a massive lump of foam in the filter, which seemed to be restricting flow.
    I never noticed any gains removing the screens...nor did I get a gain in measured flow, as it was expected.
    Certainly, no provable power gains on the dyno.


    Id be really interested in hearing how other people have gotten on with this mod? Also, Ess_Three, when you say it failed after removing the screens, are you referring to the MAF? What remedial work was needed?
    Yup, the MAF failed...
    Needed a new MAF fitting.

    The car felt flat and when dyno'd was down on power.
    MAF changed, all well again...so I left the MAF alone (complete with screens).


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  40. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1animal1 View Post
    broken maf = new maf, bit more expensive too as you wont be able to take your existing one on to swap
    True...
    I was lucky...Star Performance diagnosed mine and had another broken fully screened MAF to swap back to Audi, so mine was changed under warranty.


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  41. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Adj View Post
    The difference, in my opinion, is amazing. First off, the sound is fantastic really what the car should have sounded like I think. It has a lovely growl under load now, and the variety of noises the car makes when the throttle is closed are great. It really gives the car the aural character it deserves. It may just be me, but I swear the exhaust is a fraction louder too.

    Noise aside, the car feels more responsive now and is smoother all the way through the rev range. Previously my car felt great up to about 4500rpm, but tailed off considerably after that. Although this is still true, the effect is now much less it feels so much more eager to swing round to 6000+rpm and the shove in the back doesnt lessen now until more like 5500rpm. Again, this has made a big difference to the drive.
    Amen to that, mine feels great to after I smoothed and drilled mine.

    Although I'm still contemplating whether to de-screen my MAF and risk it. Did the screens come of easily, I noticed there's 2 isn't there one before and after sensor...
    Last edited by fran-s3; 6th April 2009 at 19:51.

 

 
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