Quattro BMW

[Dave_Bayern]

The two videos posted have two different gearboxes.

The video posted by abdus is an H pattern 6 speed, hewland straight cut, hence the whine, as sequential boxes aren't allowed in a lot of race series'.

The Hans Stuck box is definitely sequential, notice less whine, it'll be helical gears, but a straighter cut than a road box.

[MintyS3]

That vid you posted was incredibly boring. Get a vid up of when your on the nordschleife....Yes I know you not supposed to.

[Dave_Bayern]

I dont think I'll ever have a video up of my on the ring as I only do TF and dont want to spend money on a concealable camera.

Money would be better spent towards a JK.

Obviously the video was boring, it was a demonstration of noise, not what the car drives like.

[HTC]

Out of interest, why are cameras banned? What is "TF and "JK"?

[Dave_Bayern]

TF is Touristfahrten - Basically tourist driving. Which is how most people drive the Nuburgring. You buy a ticket, go round the ring. The road is a de-restricted German road where laws apply.

Other options would be a track day, testing day or race, wherein the road is no longer governed by German law, but the costs are considerably more. (From £500 a day upwards).

A JK is a Jahreskarte, which is basically a year ticket, unlimited laps. They cost around £1100 right now and are valid on TF days. Break even is about 70 laps.

EDIT - Cameras are banned for a multitude of reasons, but generally to stop people distributing crash videos, and to stop people trying to chase times.
You tend to find that first timers and inexperienced people love to time themselves, as do very experienced people and race drivers. Everyone in between probably doesnt know what their times are, and also dont video.

[HTC]

Ta for the info.

[Dave_Bayern]

Ahem...

[Prawn]

where was that taken Dave? Who's is the girls car on the right?

[Dave_Bayern]

At a carlimits day with Andy Walsh.

It was a girls car, she was too scared to use her own car for the training!

[1animal1]

i think i would be too given that your putting a car thats worth in excess of 10-15k on a limits day..... much easier decision if you've paid less and have it race prep'ed

[Dave_Bayern]

i think i would be too given that your putting a car thats worth in excess of 10-15k on a limits day..... much easier decision if you've paid less and have it race prep'ed

Erm. Firstly, that black thing is not a 15K car.

And secondly, how much do you think prepped M3s cost?

Theres 10K parts in there alone, not including the base car and labour to fit.....

[1animal1]

i know but it isnt a sub 10k car either..... point being her/his car wont have anything but standard or subtle modifications.... i wouldnt want to risk my car on a day like that.

Are you saying you have spent £10k on parts for your car plus the base vehicle?

[MintyS3]

i know but it isnt a sub 10k car either..... point being her/his car wont have anything but standard or subtle modifications.... i wouldnt want to risk my car on a day like that.

Are you saying you have spent £10k on parts for your car plus the base vehicle?

Probably one of those £9500 yellow paint jobs.

[Dave_Bayern]

i know but it isnt a sub 10k car either..... point being her/his car wont have anything but standard or subtle modifications.... i wouldnt want to risk my car on a day like that.

Are you saying you have spent £10k on parts for your car plus the base vehicle?

A 40K mile 3.2 TT Quattro is anything upwards of £8K in autotrade-mail.

You are on thin ice trying to tell me the cost of cars, I have a dealer logon for glasses and autotrade mail, I'd warrant that you dont.

Same situation with the cost of a race ready M3, you clearly have no idea. To rebuild mine again/make an exact copy from scratch including average labour would be upwards of £17K.

[A3_Turbo]

Always good reading your posts Dave,

What sort of time are you aiming for round the ring? That M3 looks like a weapon to me!

[Dave_Bayern]

Always good reading your posts Dave,

What sort of time are you aiming for round the ring? That M3 looks like a weapon to me!

Dont really know. I dont time myself.

I'm not fast.

[A3_Turbo]

Thought you may have had a bench-mark to aim for in your track equipped M3 thats all..

After what im used to driving round tracks i wouldnt dream of taking the A3 round there, must get myself a track-car one day though!

J

[Prawn]

I'm taking my A3 round the ring in september, as well as my mini too

Shame you're not going to be there that weekend Dave

[1animal1]

A 40K mile 3.2 TT Quattro is anything upwards of £8K in autotrade-mail.

You are on thin ice trying to tell me the cost of cars, I have a dealer logon for glasses and autotrade mail, I'd warrant that you dont.

Same situation with the cost of a race ready M3, you clearly have no idea. To rebuild mine again/make an exact copy from scratch including average labour would be upwards of £17K.

just when i start to like you again Dave you go and say something stupid like that....do you think ALL you need is a logon for glasses and autotrade? i can get these at the drop of a hat, IF you knew anything about valuing you'd know that dealers dont only buy/sell with glasses, but also with CAP guide (auction book).... regardless of both you couldnt value 'toss' with a logon for every valuation manual on the planet!! why? because very rarely does a vehicle fetch book price....you should know this as you own a really old M3.... in the car industry there is no comparison for experience and you have just demonstrated this.... in summary i'll happily skate on the thin ice knowing that i have worked in the industry and have several good mates that still manage and purchase such cars - warrant me all you like, your logons are worthless (funnier if you've actually paid for them), heres a little task for ya, go for a car sales purchaser interview and tell them you know how to value because you have these logins

im curious as to how you value your M3 @ 17k upwards, really cant see what your pricing into the equation here as i could buy the newer shaped M3 for sub 10k, whats that make yours worth? from the photos of what you have done to the car, id be willing to bet my left arm that it doesnt tot up over 7k, and thats valuing your car at a massive 10k!!

overall and from this thread you sound like your bitter towards Audi drivers....am i wrong?

[Dave_Bayern]

Tim,

Are you telling me that 3.2 TT's are going for over book price in the current market then?

Book price for the car as I listed above (in pics also) is currently £7700.

So your 10-15K is so way off its untrue. By your reckoning, it should be worth less.

As for my M3, I'm not going to justify myself to anyone, but you must have taken much notice of the pictures.

Safety Devices Roll Cage 6 points with door X
Sparco Corsa Seats
Willans and TRS 6 point harnesses
Momo steering wheel and boss
Bilstein PSS9 & custom droplinks
Polybushes
Oz Superleggera
Floating discs, braided lines, Race pads
Dual oil pickup, 32. Sump, 3.2 chain tensioner, ARP rod bolts
Carbon intake
Front and rear internal strut braces
Front 6 point strut brace
Modified rear trailing arms

How much do you think that adds up to?

Assume you're buying that lot for an Audi and then add the 'M Tax' on top.

Theres £8K in parts alone. And thats nowhere near all of it, just the major parts.

Then the labour and additional expense for stripping the car, adding the chequerplate, decat pipes, removing the wheel well, battery box.
Labour for fitting the above and the bits of metal etc is into the hundred of hours.

You have to do everything to FIA spec so the little connectors, the extra plates of steel, the double strengthening everything.

Valve clearances, TWS motorsport oil, brake fuilds, coolants, removing the aircon, stripping the loom, making up new looms to run to the rear.

And we've forgot GRP bits, fitting amd painting

Plus 4K maybe for an average E36 M3.

If you had to start from scratch you could EASILY spend £17K.


Parts alone are more than book price of a 3.2TT.

Not being funny but to anyone else, its obvious a fully prepped M3 is going to be 'worth' more than a totally standard 04 plate TT in any guise.

In reality, and If I were to sell my car tomorrow, it'd probably only fetch 8-9K.

That said, its still more than book of the TT pictured.


I have nothing against Audis, in fact I was the first person I knew of, and certainly the first on this board to do K03-K03s.

If you'd have been around for longer than 5 minutes you'd know I am relatively knowledgeable about Audis.

But what does amuse me is the constant insistence that the S3 is a sporty hatchback.

It has f/a horsepower, a turbo which only really delivers halfway up the rev range and then drops off before the end, crap brakes and the godawful haldex system thats only decent if you buy an extra bit of kit to split the power properly.

[1animal1]

as the reference to the TT goes Dave i really havent bothered looking at what they are going at in fairness, 3.2 will have dropped heavily in current market and I was assuming a mid aged car as opposed to the cheapest hence why i suggested between 10-15k (and the fact that i couldnt be arsed to look, not a bad guess though vague)

with regards to the 'sporty hatchback'....what would you say it is? compare the car with a focus 1.8 and its a sporty hatch back, compare it most hatchbacks in its class and its a sporty hatchback...... yes we all hail what we have bought as you have done, but the car we have chosen is in no means crap..... if Audi wanted it to be 4x4 im sure they would have made it just that, it probably would have been cheaper than spending money designing electrical systems to manage the power to the rear wheels - this isnt rocket science and you dont need experiance to tell you as its common sense..... it is apparent you hate the fact that S3 drivers love their cars, but you are the polar opposite at this point in time harping on about your M3 and how its centuries better than the S3, its a different car for one and for two your not exactly going to slaughter the S3 (equally modified) in a one on one like you seem to suggest. The M3 is BM's attempt at a sports brand aimed at a particular market, the S3 is the same from Audi's perspective and is a good all round car that is hard to beat as a package, the same as your M3 was before you stripped it....

As for what your car would fetch now, unless you found that 1 in 1000 buyer that wanted a stripped loud M3 in yellow complete with heated towel rail...then 8-9k is wishful thinking..... and just to ask the question again but based on your list rather than pics of mods.... are you telling us that you have spent 8k in parts alone?

[Dave_Bayern]

From £7700 book price compared to your 10-15K is either 30% wrong or 100% wrong, depending on the spread.

So vague it was, a good guess it was not.

You clearly have little idea, the fact you needed to ask the initial question about its capbility means you aren't really coherent regarding these cars.

For me to explain everything would be akin to explaining the thoery of relativity to an infant.

[1animal1]

Thankyou for your reply Dave, but like I said (and you obviously didnt read) i based my assumption on a mid aged car and not the cheapest 3.2 out there.... it wasnt a bad guess but as i said 'vague'... I gave my reasons for this and do not need to sell the concept to someone who sounds like 'a car buying amatuer'..... good luck with your interview - i would love to be a fly on the wall

As for your car and its capabilities, we have been here before haven't we? remember when you made an arse of yourself about how the LSD is the absolute gem in automobile history....the one thing that will make a car stick like glue under hard acceleration on any surface including 'oceans'...... yes i am not well 'up' on the BMW M3.... but as you keep telling all us 'pauper' Audi S3 drivers, it isnt the be all and end all of cars like you consistantly make out and i would beg to differ what the difference in power would be in both cars, it wouldnt be a slaughter

as said above, take your M3 and an equally modified S3 driven by drivers of your standard and not a racing driver, then your car wouldnt be 'miles' ahead, i would be willing to bet a limb on this, obviously the variables would be unlimited but the 4 wheel drive with an amatuer driver wouldnt be a bad thing

[Dave_Bayern]

As said, I was quoting for a 54 plate on 40K miles, that mid aged and mid mileage.

You have to remember that the 3.2 was discontinued in 2006. 2004 is slap bang in the middle of its life.

what interview are you talking about? Have you made up an imaginary life for me?

Am I tall, dark and handsome? I'd like to be a windsurfer in my imaginary life, perhaps you could imagine this for me?

I'd like you to find this nonsense about oceans too, maybe a quote with that exact phrase. It doesnt matter if its imaginary, like the windsurfing, it would fit in quite nicely.

My cars vs an S3 would totally depend on what kind of testing you were doing.
For example, a standing start 0-60mph and I'm pretty sure an S3 would be faster.
Driving on loose gravel or snow, S3 definitely faster.

Start driving the thing on a fast dry track I can guarantee the M3 be faster. The extra 100Bhp with the same weight would ensure that. bear in mind if we are talking modified to the same level, the M3 as standard has 100Bhp more, so lets assume standard engines.

Damp, things would tighten up, but a correctly built M3 loses very little traction.

Properly wet, the S3 would be faster given an average driver, a good driver can take corners on the edge of grip losing very little time.

Lets say you have a modified turbo, giving the S3 the same Bhp (Around 300-340Bhp).

On a short track you're going to be useless, the turbo wont spool quickly enough to provide the needed torque and power to move the car around as quickly as a flat torque naturally aspirated engine.

On a long track, things would even out but the S3's cornering advantage with the quattro would lose out to the instant torque delivery of an N/A engine.

However, you say the same spec, but the S3 suspension system isnt even close to being as good as the M suspension once modified, so start looking at a bumpy road like the Nurburgring and instantly the naturally aspirated engine combined with the superior suspension would make the M3 pull away.

There are several known factors that would quantify what I have said above:

The phrase "theres no replacement for displacement" exists because its a truth. A 1.8 engine is never going to be able to deliver within the same areas as a 3L or 3.2L N/A engine).
I dont recall the McLaren F1 being built with two 1.8T engines. It was however built with 2 M3 engines.

The other can be put down to anecdotal evidence as well as visual evidence. How many racing series' do you know of that have S3s?
How many exist with M3s?

Does the Boxster have a turbo? Because I guarantee a standard premium(S) Boxster will whoop a standard S3 round a track ANY day of the week in ANY conditions barring an actual blizzard or flood.
Going off on a tangent may seem odd but we have to remind ourselves that Boxsters are under 8K to buy, have less horsepower than an S3 but the difference is the superior and more dedicated build. This is also applicable to the M series cars in that they are designed with driving in mind, not posing.

Tim, if you REALLY want to compare, why dont you come along to a track day that also am at, your remapped 265Bhp S3 with quattro by your reckoning should destroy my 300Bhp M3 right?

I'll even use road tyres if you want to compare.....

I wont deny the S3 would be a faster point to point car on the Ess Three roads, bumpyness, speed humps, very wet most of the time. Snow a lot.

As a race/track machine, the S3 looks ridiculous in its ineptitude in comparison.

Have you ever been to the Nurburgring? People there generally dedicated, if they are british they have done a 900 mile round trip to get there, local people are masters of the track.
What are the most popular cars?
E36 M3 and 996 Carrera 2......

I'll let you know when I start to see S3's becoming popular. You might be in for a long wait...

[1animal1]

again, thanks for your reply Dave albeit a lenghty one.... on the valuation again i obviously oversaw when the 3.2 was built - again down to me not bothering to check

regarding the rest of your post, i agree with most of what you have said for a change, although do think you'd take an S3 0-60 in the dry. My point is simple the S3 is not a bad car at all but it wasnt built to race, it was built to do everything well...... your car is MORE of a race car than ours which again we can agree on, all this can be side lined given the plus's and minus these two cars have.

conclusion? we finally agree for the majority of a post - now if you are tall dark and handsome would you mind disappearing to another forum as your stealing my mojo

[Dave_Bayern]

It should be noted, I dont hate the S3, nor do I hate Quattro.

Finding another fast'ish car that has a well specced interior and can carry a washing machine is hard. The S3 is alone in its class.

But I do feel Haldex/Quattro takes away from a real driving experience and covers up the incompetencies of some drivers and is often used as a replacement for driver skill.

As said at first, the sticker on my car is tongue in cheek.

However, it is also true

[MintyS3]

I will let you know how I get on at the ring. Im going with a GT4 (300bhp 4wd), a 200sx (300bhp rwd) and a gsxr 600. Should be interesting.

Although I doubt I will get the standard suspension and brakes sorted in time...oh dear

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Nice car Dave_Bayern, have you fixed the issue with the BMW's where the indicators dont work?

[Mr.G]

Ressurection:

Dave firstly nice car. I had one myself, mine was the estoril blue and an Evo version.

Was only 18months old when i bought it. While the S3 is not the M3 in terms of power and an overall generalisation of the car it is however a good car. You say you don't hate the S3 or Quattro, yet you state Quattro is for whimps on your spoiler?? Why??

I'd love another M3. Just they are old hat now as the 8L S3 is becoming ever more so. Like what you've done with your car. Not a driving miss daisy is it!

This is however an Audi forum. You can hardly expect people here not to defend their cars to the death.

Maybe i'll buy myself a Focus ST and be done with all the arguing on the snobby forums! Stranger things have happened!!!

G

[Dave_Bayern]

The difference between an M3 and an S3 is vast however.

An S3 will never ever make a good track car in comparison to a similarly modified M3.

'Quattro is fur Warmduscher' is a big joke, its clearly not on there to be mean to people. However, it does have an element of truth....

[Mr.G]

All good then Dave

Have fun with the M3.

G