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Thread: S3 Suspension and Set-up Guide

  1. #1
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    S3 Suspension and Set-up Guide

    After spending an horrendous amount of money and time on my S3, I thought I'd best share what I found out before I forget it all. Personal opinions and a little experience. There's an emerging trend for cars with more show than go, if that's your thing so be it. However, if you're into big wheels and slammed suspension, then this thread isn't for you. Go wind down your tinted windows, turn up the bass, and cruise on by.

    Ess_Three's testing threads and advice have been the basis for the way I set my car up (as it should for most of you). However, they are good for his style of driving, not ideal for mine. I'll also try and cover a few things his testing threads haven't.

    As the cost of an S3 has lowered significantly over the last couple of years they have become more available to a wider market, and as such there's been an increase in the available tuning accessories, fashions, and styles. Whatever the latest product, the basics remain the same if you want an S3 to go round corners quickly, safely, and with predictable handling characteristics.

    So, where to begin....



    Shocks and Springs

    This comes up on the forum quite a lot. Do I go for shocks and springs, coilovers, lowering springs on there own, etc. Most people have there own opinions and recommend what they know. Afterall, its not easy or cheap to have experience of different set-ups on the same car.

    Shock absorber comression and rebound is always going to be compromised/designed to the surface your driving on. Stiffer shocks work well on nice smooth tarmac, whereas softer ones can work much better over bumps and uneven surfaces. This means you should consider the roads you drive on most when choosing your set-up. As the S3 is in its element on British backroads, something between the two extremes is needed.

    Coilovers, in general, are track orientated and have firm rebound rates. Great on smooth tracks, but they let the tyres skip over bumps leading to less grip and more understeer. The 'bells and whistles' fully adjustable ones still give a tooth rattling ride, and once they're adjusted and on the car will you really be changing them again??? I can't think of anyone that does for road use. Its an expensive way of getting a car that won't handle as well as a standard suspension kit under everyday conditions. However, if you intend on doing a lot of track days, they're brilliant.

    Can't afford a suspension kit and just want lowering springs? Don't! Chances are that your old suspension is knackered and not up to much. The shocks will be operating half compressed and outwith their normal tollerences. You'll end up with an ill-handling bouncey beast.

    The best option then, is the shocks and springs kits. And the best of those seems to be the billy and H&R combo. The Koni FSDs are also very good once you're used to them.

    Another question I see on here quite a lot is how low to drop it. Personally I'd say there isn't really a right answer but 25-35mm is the acceptable norm. Going any lower will limit the range of travel in your shocks, and even if they're designed to go lower, the ride won't be good. And you're more likely to have tyre rubbing problems.


    Anti-Roll Bars (ARBs)

    If you don't know what they are, I'll quote Ess_Three

    "Now anyone who knows how ARBs affect a cars set up will confirm that normally, the larger the front bar, the more the understeer. And, the smaller the rear bar, the more the understeer."

    So to remove cornering roll from the car without unduly affecting under/oversteer, you need a proportion increase in ARB size. Again, as we drive on UK roads, a little compliance is still needed. Putting the biggest bars you can find on there can reduce your grip levels.

    Of the options I know of, Eibach have a 21mm front ARB, Neuspeed's is 22mm, and the R32 OEM ARB is 23mm. Neuspeed also have a 25mm ARB if you like hedgerows and fields. Similarly, there's options for the back aswell. Personally I'd recommend 21mm front and 19mm rear.

    Uprated ARBs and standard shocks? Again, bad idea. The cornering forces build up in the bar and distribute it across both shocks. A sudden loading or unloading on an old shock is not a good thing.


    Wheels

    There's always some sort of debate over wheel size onthis forum, and there's always going to be someone that thinks biggest is best. What you actually need out of a wheel is a combination of low weight, minimal gyroscopic effect, and spoke rigidity (you don't want the wheel to flex).

    Whatever wheel size you want, you should be trying to maintain the same rolling radius - i.e. the sidewall is reduced to maintain the same overall circumference when the tyre is on.

    A 17" wheel has too much tyre sidewall for a good crisp turn-in and its more likely to roll under in a high speed corner, although the small wheel diameter reduces the gyroscopic effect. The problem here is more to do with the tyre size. If the S3 wore 205/40/17s it'd be perfect.

    19's are the opposite. Minimal sidewall and increased turn in, but its too much. The lack of sidewall removes any complaince from the tyre, and the increased gyroscopic effect makes it worse to turn-in than a similar weighted 17" wheel. The net effect is a tyre that wants to turn-in but a wheel that doesn't.

    Obviously then 18" wheels are the ones to go for on an S3. They don't look too big, they handle well, and they're have the largest choice of tyre fitments.


    Tyres

    Again, everyone has an opinion. Here's mine:

    Wet weather specific: avoid them, this is about performance
    General, all round: Goodyear Eagle F1s
    General, summer use: Yokohama Parada Spec 2
    Summer/track: Toyo R888 - unbelievable grip

    Tyre Pressures

    Ignore the manual, I've tried alot and this is what I've found:

    17" wheels - front 30psi, rear 32psi
    18" wheels - front 32psi, rear 34psi
    19" wheels - front 34psi, rear 36psi

    That's all unloaded pressures. I don't let passengers in my car
    Last edited by ChriS3; 18th June 2008 at 13:30.
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  3. #2
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    ^^^Hiya mate , ive got a 8P not a 8L S3 do these principals still aply?

    I'm running H&R 25 mil lowering springs on Std shocks ATM ( i will upgrade the shocks when the Std ones go )

    About the tyre pressure the 8P S3 manual says 39psi front and 33psi rear , what would you recommend?

    I'm running 39 front 36 rear ATM

    Thanks

    p

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    MikeA3's Avatar
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    Nice write up chris - thanks
    S3 AMK
    Bilstein B8's & Eibach Springs, Neuspeed ARB's (22mm front & 19mm rear).

    Badger 5's Machined Discs with DS2500 pads & HEL braided lines.

  5. #4
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    Geometry

    The standard set-up is designed to understeer at the limit. Its safer that way. However since we're getting rid of understeer, we need to address this.

    Front end: The general set-up of an S3 has toe-in and not much camber. When you look at toe-in from above, both the wheels point towards the centreline of the car, kinda like - / \

    When you go round a corner, the inside wheel is pointing straight ahead making the outside wheel's grip less effective. Additionally, in a straight line your wheels are driving towards each other, increasing transmission losses.

    Toe-out on the other hand, has the inside wheel following the tighter line of a corner, increasing overall grip. - \ /

    However, your wheels are now pulling apart in a straight line, increasing transmission losses and bearing degradation.

    For me then, the best option was parallel toe - ||

    The camber up front needs tweaking too. The best you can get without ball joint modification is -1.3 per side. In order to get that, you need to ensure that the subframe is exactly in the middle. Ball joint mods can give you about another -0.5, but some say that this increases the track rod end consumption rate.


    Back end: There's little adjustment and little benefit to be had in playing around with the rear toe settings. Keep them standard. However, if you've lowered the car, or even if you just want more stability, then you'll need rear adjustable tie-arms. Various options, various prices.

    A drop of about 30mm in height will increase rear camber to about -2.0. With that much, the car squirms under power and feels twitchy. Not what you want if you've just spent on your suspension. Rear tie-arms will let you them camber to acceptable levels. Somewhere in the region of -0.5 gives the right balance of stability and still allows for a little power oversteer.


    Haldex Performance Part

    The uprated haldex controller is a tremendous bit of kit. Its a very subtle mod under most conditions, but if you're pressing on its great. Hard to fully describe, but in a straight line you have more of a push from the seat than a pull from the steering wheel. You can access 4wd through throttle position so the drive out of corners is more positive. However, its not going to make the S3 into a drift machine. Worth considering if you want as much as you can out of the car.


    Bushes

    Lastly, uprated bushes. They don't strictly improve the handling as such, but the do stiffen up the feel of the steering and suspension and add a lot of confidence to the drive.




    Hope all of that helps someone. With any luck it might help another noob with the fear of the search...

    Correct me where I'm wrong and feel free to add
    Last edited by ChriS3; 18th June 2008 at 16:52.
    [/sarcasm]

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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    ^^^Hiya mate , ive got a 8P not a 8L S3 do these principals still aply?

    I'm running H&R 25 mil lowering springs on Std shocks ATM ( i will upgrade the shocks when the Std ones go )

    About the tyre pressure the 8P S3 manual says 39psi front and 33psi rear , what would you recommend?

    I'm running 39 front 36 rear ATM

    Thanks

    p
    Hey phantom,

    Mechanical principles apply, although figures and dimensions are usually weight and size dependant. So yeah, some apply some don't.

    As for your springs, although your shocks will be nice and new and probably not too badly affected, they're not working as they should and not only did you pay to have them fitted, you'll have to pay again to have the matchiing shocks put in. But hey, you 8P guys can afford these things
    [/sarcasm]

  7. #6
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    Can this be made sticky, as it offers very good descriptions and advice, like Ess_Three's stickies?
    03 Ebony black S3, Dieselgeek short shift, its started..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChriS3 View Post
    Hey phantom,

    Mechanical principles apply, although figures and dimensions are usually weight and size dependant. So yeah, some apply some don't.

    As for your springs, although your shocks will be nice and new and probably not too badly affected, they're not working as they should and not only did you pay to have them fitted, you'll have to pay again to have the matchiing shocks put in. But hey, you 8P guys can afford these things
    Cheers mate , any thoughts on the tyre pressure?

    Thanks

    p

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    Oops, sorry. Forgot to add the pressures. Personally I'd swap them round to 36 front and 39 rear. But its best get a well known stretch with some good corners to test and compare. I prefer a softer front as it can give a little more initial bite.

    Edit: - As a comparison, I run 37 front and 39 rear on the RS4 (275/30/19)
    Last edited by ChriS3; 18th June 2008 at 12:12.
    [/sarcasm]

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    Hey Chris, I found this phtoto from your album

    http://audi-sport.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=244

    I found the ride height just spot-on, what suspension you are running on that pics?


  11. #10
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    While I'm in the mood for ranting, I guess I should also add a little more.


    Unsprung Weight

    In my view, this is the thing that's most overlooked but probably the thing that changes the feel of the car the most. Unsprung weight is anything that isn't supported and dampened by the suspension. In this case, brakes, wheels, and tyres. If you have less unsprung weight, the car feels more 'go-kart' like.

    In the case of wheels, and to some extent brake discs, there's the gyroscopic effect - similar to holding and moving a spinning bicycle wheel. If you increase the spinning mass, then you increase the forces needed to turn the wheel on its axis. On the car it means the car won't want to turn in to the corner too sharpley. So be wary of replica alloys that are big and heavy.

    With the brakes, the standard single piston caliper is a big heavy beast. The discs aren't much better. The ECS Stage 3 kit (Porsche big reds) were about 5lbs lighter each side. This is another reason to slate the look-at-me kits with the huge 6 pot calipers, they weigh a ton.


    Spacers

    Like bushes, I don't think spacers add anything to the handling but its worth mentioning anyway. If they're too big then you end up with a tyre rubbing mid corner or under heavy compressions. Its distracting, and it can stop you fully committing to a bend if you know its going to happen.

    Best advice is 10mm up front and 15mm at the back. It should work with most OEM and aftermarket alloys, so its future proof. 8mm and below are lug-centric only, so fitting them should be done with care or you'll end up with wheel wobble.

    With OEM alloys (et32/33) you can push it a little more, but if your aftermarket wheels are et30 and 8.5" wide then 15mm up front and 20mm at the back wont work too well. Even 15mm at the back is getting close.

    As you're basically adding chunks of metal to the end of your hubs, its worth going for decent spacers. I've seen attemps at DIY spacers using bits of steel - not pretty. It weighs a ton and throws off the balance.
    Last edited by ChriS3; 18th June 2008 at 16:42.
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomnhta View Post
    Hey Chris, I found this phtoto from your album

    http://audi-sport.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=244

    I found the ride height just spot-on, what suspension you are running on that pics?
    Eibach Pro-Street S coilvers, wound down about -35mm.
    [/sarcasm]

  13. #12
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    Nice one Chris...

    Other points to consider are spring rates, bump damping rates and rebound damping rates.
    Manufacturers/sellers will most likely not tell you these, or may not know.
    But, in general, the more you pay, the better the suspension kit will be for the purpose it's designed.

    So buy a 299 coil-over kit, and the ride is likely to be horrible, with the handling not much better.
    Buy a road based kit (springs and dampers) and expect excellent ride comfort and handling...but perhaps too soft for serious track use.
    Buy a Clubsport track based kit and expect it to be superb when set at a reasonable height and adjusted correctly, on the track...but pretty bad (harsh) on the road.


    Also consider adjustable kits...
    Do you really know what the adjustments do? Are you honestly able to set your car up better than a manufacturer?
    If the answer is no...get a fixed damping kit.
    The amount of cars i've set up after the owner has adjusted everything the wrong way and rined the car, us scarecely believable.

    Also, consider firmness...
    Firmness can be spring rate related (too high a poundage) of damping related...
    And also realise that two cars fitted with different set-ups may feel similar but behave differently in the hands of the same driver when pushed...
    For example:
    Chris's S3 felt slightly more firm than mine...felt taughter on turn in...(possibly higher spring rates) but once turned in and loadedup, had less rebound damping than the Bilstein B8s..so it 'moved' slightly mid-corner, where the Bilsteins did not.
    The trade off being it turned in fractionally better...perhaps fractionally easier to place on turn in.

    Different driving styles require different compromises in suspension...Chris's Eibach coil-over set up probably suits the smoother driver (which I know Chris is) and a car with an uprated Haldex controller, the Bilstein B8s/H&Rs suit someone who turns in hard and late...a more aggressive driving style, and a style which makes the standard Haldex controller work harder.


    Finally...
    Ride height.
    It may not be fashionable to have your car anything other than 'decked'..but on an S3, you'll ruin things.
    The sump hangs low and unless you pick a kit with very high spring rates and high compression damping, you'll risk hitting your sump if you hit a yump 'on it'.
    The S3 suspension doesn't work well what radically lowered...if loks are your aim, wind your coil-overs down and pray for your sump...if you want to drive it hard, stick to 25-35mm lower and if you've fitted a decent kit, you'll be fine.


    Horses for courses...
    The best advice before buying would be to try to find someone on the forum with he suspension kit you want...and try it.
    I drove Star Performance's demonstrator before buying the Bilstein set-up.


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  14. #13
    fingermouse's Avatar
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    what are the actually geometry settings for a lowered S3 to give the best all round feel and drivability ???
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    Front

    Camber -1.3
    Toe 0 (parallel)


    Rear

    Camber -0.5
    [/sarcasm]

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    Alternately, try there:

    Front

    Camber -1.5
    Toe 002 (2 minutes toe out)

    Rear

    Camber -1.0[/QUOTE]
    Toe 0 (Parallel)


    This is a more aggressive setting...but will wear tyres fractionally faster.
    If all you do is blast along back roads...the above will be great.
    If you use mtorways and lots of dual carridgeways..Chris's settings wil be perfect.

    Basically..if you set the front and rear camber and toe to anywhere between Chris's and my settings, you won't go wrong!


    If you want ultimate grip, and want to try to add steering feel, and don't mind it being a little twitchy in the wet or under very heavy braking...you can go more toe out on the front and as much negative as you can:

    Front

    Camber -1.55 to -1.6 (probably as uch as you'll get on an S3, even with slotting the bottom balljoint holes slightly)
    Toe 004 (4 minutes toe out)

    Rear

    Camber -1.0
    Toe 0 (Parrllel)


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    fingermouse's Avatar
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    I do a lot of fast A roads / motorways in 90% of my driving so probally go with a cambre of -1 and get the toe sorted hopefully with the arms on the bottom.

    looked at my car again toda and the back wheels look worst now than when I set them by eye / spirit level. ( nb was just so I could set them roughly to allow suspension to settle)
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  18. #17
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    I couldn't ever get more than -1.3 camber at the front of mine, but I'd agree that -1.5 would have been a bit better, the more the merrier.

    I think the car was handling at its best with 004 toe-out up, front but you really had to drive the thing all the time. Perfect for the roads round here.
    [/sarcasm]

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    Great write up Chris, i definately think its worth making this a sticky. It might mean we go over this same subject less often, as between this and Glens sticky most peoples suspension questions should have been covered.
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    That's it a sticky now...


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  21. #20
    fingermouse's Avatar
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    just out of interest what is a std S3 set to is it roughly the same or is the cambre close to 0 00 ??? just need the facts to argue with the people who just had a go at mine.
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  22. #21
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    Front camber is almost 0.0 as I recall - maybe some...but next to nothing.
    Parallel front toe - with a tolerance for a wee bit of toe-in or toe-out.
    Rear camber should be roughly 0.0 on a standard spring car and can be around -2.0 on a quattro gmbh sprung car it seems.
    Parallel rear toe, I think.


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  23. #22
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    Quick question, the toe out up front is that 2 minutes toe out per side, or 2 minutes toe out total?
    03 Ebony black S3, Dieselgeek short shift, its started..

  24. #23
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    Either, or, really...
    2 minutes per side isn't much...probably enough to give a little more feel to the steering...but I doubt either will drastically wear the tyres, even combined with negative camber.

    I'd go for 2 minutes per side, I think.
    But the difference is so small, it'll not make huge differences.


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    Ok thanks, its going in to be setup tomorrow so i'll go for
    2 minutes toe out per side
    1.5 degrees negative camber at the front (or as much as I can get)
    Parrallel toe at the rear
    1 degree negative camder at the rear.
    Then we'll see what it should have been like from th factory.
    03 Ebony black S3, Dieselgeek short shift, its started..

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    Just had a 4 wheel alignment and here are the results:


    Any comments?

    The rear now feels even more planted. Apparently the passenger side front could not be brought in any more to reduce negative camber, so had to bring the drivers side in line with it. Hopefully front tyre wear won't be too servere!


    ICE

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    Looks good to me.
    As long as you corner hard, to wear the outside edges, you should have even wear at the front...and rear should be fine too.

    the car should feel much better...more confidence inspiring?


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    Corner harder! Aye aye captain!

    Having had the alignment, it definately feels a lot less twitchy. Haven't had a proper blast in it yet, but so far so good! Confidence is growing, but it's now a case of knowing where the new limits are.

    If anyone needs a 4 wheel alignment in Suffolk, I used www.brockfordarc.co.uk . Very helpful and professional - 105 + VAT.

    ICE

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    interesting read. Just abt to get my alignment sorted and fancy a fast road setting. Do the above settings apply for standard s3's too? Cheers, ian
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  30. #29
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    You'll not get the same settings on a standard S3 as you can't get enough front negative camber without it being lowered, and the rear isn't adjustable as standard.

    You can try to get as much front negative as you can...but with standard woeful springs and dampers, I'll not hold out much hope of the handling being transformed.

    But try it...
    Get as much front negative camber as you can...it'll not do any harm.


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  31. #30
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    How about toe though?

    Having it done this eve so will ask them. Many Thanks

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  32. #31
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    Yeah, a bit of toe out will add some bite...sure.
    Not sure how much difference...but it'll certainly give a little more 'feel', in my experience.


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  33. #32
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    I'm going in tomorrow for a full alignment. What are your opinions on this setup:

    Front:

    Toe 0.01 out per side (like to have marginally better turn in but also don't want it to extreme)
    Camber -0.75 degrees (like the look of the wheels standing as straight up as possible and I also like better handling)

    Rear:

    Toe 0.00 in/out per side
    Camber -0.75 degrees (Again, it looks better imo if the car doesn't squat and handling should be upped quite a bit)

    I'm going equally as much for handling and looks. Never mind tire wear but the two other factors are really important.

    Is this an acceptable compromise?
    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
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  34. #33
    Ess_Three's Avatar
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    For the front, you really do want as much negative camber as you can get...or it'll still understeer off at every chance.

    I'd go for -1.0 to -1.5 degrees at the front...and leave the toe parallel if you don't want it too extreme....besides, you are quite possibly already over the 0.75 degrees you speak of just by being lowered on the H&Rs - I was at around -1.0 degrees with those alone.

    S3 hheels straight up and down = abysmal handling.
    But, if looks are your thing...then go for it.

    Personally, I don't think the looks will be improved by understeering off into a ditch...so I'd suggest plenty of negative camber!


    Also consider, you'll end up with more grip...and being lowered the chance of your lovely tyres hitting the insides of those bling rims of yours is increased!
    ChriS3s car used to rub his 'poser spec' tyres on the arches when driven spiritedly...leaving a none-too-cool ring of arch liner stick to the sidewall, and flapping in the breeze.

    Another -0.5 of camber - or some higher offset wheels / smaller spacers / narrower wheels or tyres would have stopped that.


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  35. #34
    Dennis Moeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    For the front, you really do want as much negative camber as you can get...or it'll still understeer off at every chance.

    I'd go for -1.0 to -1.5 degrees at the front...and leave the toe parallel if you don't want it too extreme....besides, you are quite possibly already over the 0.75 degrees you speak of just by being lowered on the H&Rs - I was at around -1.0 degrees with those alone.

    S3 hheels straight up and down = abysmal handling.
    But, if looks are your thing...then go for it.

    Personally, I don't think the looks will be improved by understeering off into a ditch...so I'd suggest plenty of negative camber!


    Also consider, you'll end up with more grip...and being lowered the chance of your lovely tyres hitting the insides of those bling rims of yours is increased!
    ChriS3s car used to rub his 'poser spec' tyres on the arches when driven spiritedly...leaving a none-too-cool ring of arch liner stick to the sidewall, and flapping in the breeze.

    Another -0.5 of camber - or some higher offset wheels / smaller spacers / narrower wheels or tyres would have stopped that.
    Thanks for a late night reply :-)

    You really got me worried now Ess...Damn, what to do.

    Yeah I'm going on a track day two or three times a year, yes I like handling and yeah I like to keep my bling wheels in one peace. But looks mean something for me too...

    So the H&R 25mm really add that much camber already. Ok, that's fine because the wheel up front is (well they look at least) totally straight. Ok, I'll stretch it to -1.0 degree up front, happy with the parallel toe and for the rears would it be fine with -1.0 degrees considering my "needs".

    I know this has been debated back & forth but I'm really anxious going in tomorrow. Not only will it set me back 330 pounds but I really want an allround car...

    Bear with me...
    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
    ______________________________________________
    NO ONE EVER REALLY DIED

  36. #35
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    -1.0 at the rear should be fine...but, it could be close to scuffing the arch with your wide wheels and spacers when you are giving it some on the track. You'll not know though, until you try.
    I had to go to -0.5 degrees (I think) from 0.0 as I would have rubbed with 8" x 18", ET33 wheels and 16mm spacers.
    I wouldn't go for much more than -0.5 to -1.0 at the rear though or it gets less stable under power - in my experience.

    As for the front, the car should sit evenly at around -1.0 with H&Rs on...if not, something is either bent or the subframe is not central.
    Just try to get at least -1.0 on both sides...then when you've wrecked the outside edges by rolling off them, we'll help you get another -0.5 degree +.

    With 20mm front spacers (if that's what you have) wider wheels (8.5") and lowered, I fully expect tyre to arch liner contact if you drive like I do.


    As for looks Dennis...competition cars have negative camber...that's there for a reason...and in my mind looks good.
    On an S3, -1.5 degrees doesn't look too much really...

    It's just not possible to say what will work for you...you are just going to have to suck it and see.


    As for late night...not really.
    I'm 120 miles NE of Aberdeen, in the middle of the North Sea, just by the Norwegan 'border'...and for me, this is lunch time (mid-way through 14 nightshifts).


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  37. #36
    hud at ye bam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    ChriS3s car used to rub his 'poser spec' tyres on the arches when driven spiritedly...leaving a none-too-cool ring of arch liner stick to the sidewall, and flapping in the breeze.
    Oh come now, it was a gentle rub at the worst (and only at the back) and nothing was hanging off the old Yokos. (That was with 10mm spacers all round and rear adjustable tie-arms at the top position.)

    I'd agree that you should stick to the most neg camber you can get at the front. The compromise should be not undoing the ball joints for a little more. Having -1.0 at the rear will stop the car from squirming under acceleration, much more planted than -2.0.
    [/sarcasm]

  38. #37
    Dennis Moeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    -1.0 at the rear should be fine...but, it could be close to scuffing the arch with your wide wheels and spacers when you are giving it some on the track. You'll not know though, until you try.
    I had to go to -0.5 degrees (I think) from 0.0 as I would have rubbed with 8" x 18", ET33 wheels and 16mm spacers.
    I wouldn't go for much more than -0.5 to -1.0 at the rear though or it gets less stable under power - in my experience.

    As for the front, the car should sit evenly at around -1.0 with H&Rs on...if not, something is either bent or the subframe is not central.
    Just try to get at least -1.0 on both sides...then when you've wrecked the outside edges by rolling off them, we'll help you get another -0.5 degree +.

    With 20mm front spacers (if that's what you have) wider wheels (8.5") and lowered, I fully expect tyre to arch liner contact if you drive like I do.


    As for looks Dennis...competition cars have negative camber...that's there for a reason...and in my mind looks good.
    On an S3, -1.5 degrees doesn't look too much really...

    It's just not possible to say what will work for you...you are just going to have to suck it and see.


    As for late night...not really.
    I'm 120 miles NE of Aberdeen, in the middle of the North Sea, just by the Norwegan 'border'...and for me, this is lunch time (mid-way through 14 nightshifts).
    Cheers for the info. I don't have spacers at all at the front. 20mm H&R at the rear though. Seems to be fine and I did some serious cornering at high speeds...no rubbing!

    Car went in today for the alignment. The mechanic had to loosen the subframe as it was way off.

    Before:

    Front left Toe were 0.09
    Front right Toe were -0.17


    Now:
    Front left Toe: 0.00
    Front right Toe: 0.00

    Front Camber was also way out of balance..

    Before:

    Front left Camber: -1.29
    Front right Camber: -0.25

    Now:

    Front left Camber: -1.02
    Front right Camber: -0.58

    Before:

    Rear left Toe: 0.05
    Rear right Toe: 0.17

    Now:

    Rear left Toe: 0.04
    Rear right Toe: 0.04

    So far so good! No wonder my car felt awful despite all the new upgraded stuff I put on. Well I was happy with the alignment but what can you do when the GOD DAMNED Forge tie bars can't be adjusted to the level I want...So there I am with this new problem.

    Before:

    Rear left Camber: -2.19

    Rear right Camber: -3.04

    Now:

    Rear Left Camber: -1.54
    Rear right Camber: -2.35

    That was the closest to getting equal camber at the rear. Both sides couldn't be adjusted further despite me having paid good money for new tie bars...What to do now? Switch the lower and upper tie bar and try to adjust the wheel outwards??

    Making a new thread for that question...
    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
    ______________________________________________
    NO ONE EVER REALLY DIED

  39. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Moeller View Post
    Now:

    Rear Left Camber: -1.54
    Rear right Camber: -2.35

    That was the closest to getting equal camber at the rear. Both sides couldn't be adjusted further despite me having paid good money for new tie bars...What to do now? Switch the lower and upper tie bar and try to adjust the wheel outwards??

    Making a new thread for that question...
    Yes, is the short answer.


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  40. #39
    Dennis Moeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Yes, is the short answer.
    Thank you! I will switch the bars and get the camber as "right" as I can without alignment, go to the track and test if it's ok and then send it back to align the rest. Will rear Toe need adjustment again?
    My old car.. Still miss the lil rocket :-)

    Remapped Stage II - Forge FMIC - Dahlb�ck Intake - K&N - DieselGeek ShortShift - Phenolic - Powerflex Dogbone - Rial Daytona Race 8.5x18" ET30 - Forge Tiebars - Bilstein B8 - H&R 25mm - R32 rear ARB - H&R 20mm Spacers - EBC Discs - Red Stuff pads
    ______________________________________________
    NO ONE EVER REALLY DIED

  41. #40
    s3ollie's Avatar
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    do you have you bars on the top Dennis?

    I had to change mine to the bottom to get the correct toe on the rear. it sat at + 3 degrees per side before hand with the adjuster plate on the sills. obviously you got you toe OK but i could be affecting the camber.

    also your front camber:

    Before:

    Front left Camber: -1.29
    Front right Camber: -0.25

    Now:

    Front left Camber: -1.02
    Front right Camber: -0.58

    Although its better its now its still not IMO close to equal . id be wanting it spot on if i was paying 330 for the privilege mate
    8P S3

 

 
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