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  1. #1
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    R32 Arb's!!!!!!!!!!

    I know this has probably been covered many times and i have already done a search but i wanted your expertise in one thread. Basically hopefully i will be getting the defcon 2 kit and R32 arb's fitted on Wednesday. I really wanted your help on the R32 anti roll bars. Are they any good basically? I had h+r fitted to my S4 and i found them very good, so i was thinking of going H&R but being an extra 130 i thought i would get some feedback on the R32 IV arb's. Thanks

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  3. #2
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    front what I've heard the front bar is too big on the S3, and it'll reduce roll, but it wont change the balance of the car, so it'll still understeer like a warship around any meaningful type of corner.....
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  4. #3
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    When I priced it up there wasn't a huge amount in it. I was quoted something like
    ~130 Rear 19mm bar +VAT
    ~70 Front 23mm bar +VAT
    ~5 for each bush x4

    So 220 +VAT for all the bits or 270 for the H&R from DPM. From what I have read they are a big improvement but the front bar maybe slightly too large in proportion to the rear. For me it just wasn't worth doing, when you can have the H&R bars for about the same price
    03 Ebony black S3, Dieselgeek short shift, its started..

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    fornt 23 mil bar is a bargain and well worth it, but you need to go a bit bigger than 19mil on the rear.

    However, be careful if you have stock dampers, the rear are quite soft and if you go fo a 22mil rear bar (nice a neutral, ) you need t have uprated shocks really.

  6. #5
    S3quatt's Avatar
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    See this link....

    Star Performance Testing Day Pt8 Anti-Roll Bars

    It's the same set up I fitted & I cant fault it.

    It has made the ride a little harder, but it's still a road car not a track racer...

    When pushing it on corners the understeer has almost completely gone, in fact on some occasions I could swear I've felt the back end twitch a little!

    Last edited by S3quatt; 26th May 2008 at 20:08. Reason: Wrong link
    ...... Now this one's MUCH better!...

  7. #6
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    Thanks mate, i think i may go for the neuspeed front and rear then. I also have H&R coilovers fitted, but just wanted to stiffen the car up.

  8. #7
    DPM
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    I'd say H&R all the way personally.

    Damian @ DPM
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  9. #8
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    ive got the R32 and they have been ok on std suspension but that is about to be changed when DPM pulls his finger out lol


    only joking DPM you know im not around for a bit lol
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  10. #9
    DPM
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingermouse View Post
    ive got the R32 and they have been ok on std suspension but that is about to be changed when DPM pulls his finger out lol


    only joking DPM you know im not around for a bit lol

    Blame H&R, uber slow at everything!

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    Any idea on timescales Damian?

    At the current rate we may even get the tie bars before the other bits.
    03 Ebony black S3, Dieselgeek short shift, its started..

  12. #11
    DPM
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    ARBs and springs went out to you today mate.

    Damian @ DPM
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  13. #12
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    Cool, thanks very much.
    03 Ebony black S3, Dieselgeek short shift, its started..

  14. #13
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    my R32 Arbs were about 190 incl Vat and i get very little roll, altho suspension is also upgraded too
    Vehicle wrapping specialist

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  15. #14
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    Hi all.

    So which are better for making the S3 what it should have been??

    H&R or R32?

    What are the size differences? What are the standard sizes?

    Many thanks.

    G

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    I have been looking into R32 ARB's too... I have found a list of part numbers on the mkiv forum but I haven't checked if they are right or complete. If anyone could add to this then that would be great

    FRONT:
    1 x 1j0 411 305 AF (FRONT 23MM ARB)
    2 x 1J0 411 314 T (21MM FRONT RUBBER MOUNT)
    2 x 1J0 411 336D (CLIP)
    2 x N 101 016 03 (BOLT)

    REAR:
    1 x 1J0 511 409 K (REAR 19MM ARB)
    2 x 8A0 511 439 (ARB CLIP)
    2 x Rear ARB Bush
    2 x N 010 236 6 (BOLT)

    <tuffty/>
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  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    I have been looking into R32 ARB's too... I have found a list of part numbers on the mkiv forum but I haven't checked if they are right or complete. If anyone could add to this then that would be great

    FRONT:
    1 x 1j0 411 305 AF (FRONT 23MM ARB)
    2 x 1J0 411 314 T (21MM FRONT RUBBER MOUNT)
    2 x 1J0 411 336D (CLIP)
    2 x N 101 016 03 (BOLT)

    REAR:
    1 x 1J0 511 409 K (REAR 19MM ARB)
    2 x 8A0 511 439 (ARB CLIP)
    2 x Rear ARB Bush
    2 x N 010 236 6 (BOLT)

    <tuffty/>
    How much is that little lot setting you back mate and does that all bolt striaht onto the S3?

  18. #17
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    Is there any point in changing the ARB's for R32 spec ones if they aren't as good as H&R??

    If the H&R ones are thicker doesn't it make sense to change for those instead, and pay the etra ??

    Very interested in this though as my car feels sloppy and i want to get it "right".

    G

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
    Is there any point in changing the ARB's for R32 spec ones if they aren't as good as H&R??

    If the H&R ones are thicker doesn't it make sense to change for those instead, and pay the etra ??

    Very interested in this though as my car feels sloppy and i want to get it "right".

    G
    I think its more down to price and availability... while there is no real difference between R32 and H&R, you maybe able to get R32 from an R32 forum from an owner that has changed them already (reducing cost) or get a good deal from a dealer on new or from a trade place like TPS.

    If the OEM ones work out cheaper then its a decent enough move. As for size, from what I have read the optimum for an S3 seems to be 22mm front and 19mm rear which gives a balanced feel to the car over the standard ARBs as it reduces understeer. The R32 setup is 23mm front and 19mm rear, the extra 1mm of the R32 will give the 'factory' understeer back to an extent but overall the combo will greatly improve handling over the standard setup.

    I for one am happy to still retain the understeer as I am not a 'press on' driver so the R32 setup will suit my needs, a 22mm front may suit the more adventurous I suspect...

    Que Ess_Three and his infinate wisdom

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  20. #19
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    Thanks dude. Appreciate the info. I'm not up on this techy info on ARB's hence me resurrecting the thread. Again thanks....made me more informed and it'll be on my list of things to do.

    Ess!! Where are you.....

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by fran-s3 View Post
    How much is that little lot setting you back mate and does that all bolt striaht onto the S3?

    I don't have a quote as yet. I have a mate who works within the same group as my local VW dealership so I may ask him if he can sort something out.

    As far as I know all this will bolt straight onto an S3 as they are essentially the same layout underneath (like most VAG cars).

    Here is a link to the same bars being fitted to a TT (again, same as an S3 underneath)

    http://www.wak-tt.com/mods/arb/arb.htm

    <tuffty/>
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  22. #21
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    What are the standard ARB sizes on the S3???

  23. #22
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    19mm front and 15mm rear...

    Star Performance Testing Day Pt8 Anti-Roll Bars

    Read and enjoy

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  24. #23
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    H&R's everytime. Anyone who tells you the 25mm front bar will make it understeer knows feck all.

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  25. #24
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    Defo leecs3?? How do you know this? Personal experience?

    I'm looking to get some in the next month or two and thought i'd do some research into it all now, before hand. I want the best ARB setup which stiffens up the car a lot.

    G

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by leecs3 View Post
    H&R's everytime. Anyone who tells you the 25mm front bar will make it understeer knows feck all.
    H&R's everytime? you dont work for DPM do you?

    Im all for going for tried and tested approaches as i simply dont have the time or inclination to buy and fit items when other people have tested and proven their results..... im considering this upgrade too but going on what Glen & Simch(and others) suggests the 25mm front ARB wouldnt be suitable?....where do you get your info from and what have you got to back it up as your comment is some what contraversial
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  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

    Ess!! Where are you.....
    Not much point in commenting...as apparently I know feck all.


    In my view, the Neuspeed set-up is the best, for my driving style and really crappy roads I drive on (it also happens to ne totally neutral, and easy to power oversteer on the track) so I'd still suggest them.

    Mine was a road car...on a road set up...driven in all weathers on all roads.
    It was NOT a super stiff track car on coilovers...so uber large ARBs weren't on my agenda.

    I would always go for a slightly larger rear bar over the front, to alter the chassis balance away from terminal understeer (yes, you'll still understeer whilst rolling less on equally uprated bars)...and I'd fit the smallest bars you can to get the results you want.

    You need some transfer of weight to get the car to respond...
    Too big and although great in the dry, hit a bump in the wet and you are understeering again.
    If the ARBs are overly large (in my view) then you get no weight transfer or roll at all...which means you don't get the suspension geometry working properly (adding negative camber as it leans over) and you put all the stresses onto the outside front tyre...loading it right up.
    One bump, rut or section of grit...you break traction and you've lost the grip.

    Smaller ARBs give you more compliance.

    Also consider:
    ARBs are springs...they need controlling by the dampers.
    Go too big, and you give the dampers more work to do.
    Run very large ARBs on under-damped dampers and it's an accident looking for a suitable location to happen.
    ARBs NEED to be matched to damper re-bound rates.

    Large ARBs may be great on KW V3s where you can crank up the rebound damping...but I'd argue not so hot on fixed damping on a road car.


    Everyone has their own views...
    Their driving style, the roads they use, different springs/dampers etc...
    But the Neuspeed set would be where my money would go...as of all the S3's I've driven (lots!) there has never been one any better than mine was chassis wise.
    But, that's maybe just because it was set up for how I drive.


    But hey, what do I know...


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  28. #27
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    Just when I thought I had it all sorted then Ess makes me think again dammit!!

    What would you suggest for the more budget minded approach? I would love to go Neuspeed and Billy B8's etc but current prices have put them well out of my budget. I can get the R32 kit at a reasonable price using a friends discount at VW which is why I considered them and was going to go budget coilovers as I don't have the 1000 odd to go all out.
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  29. #28
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    What's your budget?

    If you can't stretch to B8s, springs and ARBs, save your money and forget the ARBs.
    Get decent springs and dampers, add the adjustable tie bars, get the geometry sorted to some decent settings and play with your tyre pressures.
    You will be 90% of the way there...

    ARBs are the final touch.
    The springs and dampers are the key to making it handle...along with the alignment and you do NEED rear adjustable tie bars to sort the mess out that lowering causes.

    I wouldn't suggest coilovers on a road car...you don't need them when you can buy proper springs and dampers to do the job.

    Most people don't know how to set up adjustable coilovers anyway...and make a pigs ear of all the adjustments...so having a well designed and well selected spring/damper combination assures good handling out of the box.

    Cheap coilovers should be avoided at all costs unless all you want is to dump it so low you rip the sump off...and impress the 'yoofs' 'cos it's 'decked'. Innit.


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  30. #29
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    I have some KW tie bars coming so thats covered... do they replace the top or bottom arms???

    Fair point about the ARBs then, I will redo my figures and see how it all works out... Coilovers would be about 400 and I am still waiting on a price for ARBs but anticipate around the 200 mark if I can get the right discount.

    B8's are 539 from DPM although I did consider Koni FSD's which are a bit cheaper. The H&R springs are bonkers expensive though at the moment

    As for the ARBs, providing I have the suspension sorted etc, would the R32 combo of 23mm/19mm work ok? Obviously if there was no price diff between R32 and aftermarket then its a pointless exercise but from the principle of size...

    Thanks

    <tuffty/>
    Last edited by <tuffty/>; 5th March 2009 at 10:52.
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  31. #30
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    The R32 give a simular handling to the std arb but reduce the feeling that the back end it going to tip over... if that makes sence
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  32. #31
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    Ess....

    It's always nice when someone has a passion for getting a car "right" in regards to handling.

    I've the same passion with detailing. So understand what you are talking about.

    I'd like to say thanks for the unbias advice on ARB's, i get really confused as to what each component does and before anyone says anything i've a fairly high IQ so i'm not stupid just suspension and cars mechanical aspects are not at the forefront of my knowledge.

    I think i'm going to go with what you say on these ARB's the Neuspeeds sound good, but as you have already said these are the finishing touches. I'd need to get some new Springs and Shocks to make the best of the S3??

    What would be a typical "lovely" setup to go for??

    1. Springs - H&R?
    2. Shocks - Bilsteins?

    Then when these are nicely setup and installed put the Neuspeeds on to finish the whole lot off. Icing on cake so to speak?

    Problem is I've just made my list of things to get a whole lot longer by the looks of things. lol

    G

  33. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingermouse View Post
    The R32 give a simular handling to the std arb but reduce the feeling that the back end it going to tip over... if that makes sence
    Sorta...

    So, std balance will remain but will be stiffer overall is what you are saying?
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  34. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingermouse View Post
    The R32 give a simular handling to the std arb but reduce the feeling that the back end it going to tip over... if that makes sence
    Tip over? Mine never felt like that no matter how hard i push it! It just leans too much for my liking, sometimes when i think it'll break traction is doesn't and the lean stops, cars still gripping and i exit the corner! I only closely lost it once, had a minute bit of oversteer on a very short round about and the car flicked side to side briefly, power down and shot off.

    I think if i'd lifted then i'd have crashed it.

    G

  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    I have some KW tie bars coming so thats covered... do they replace the top or bottom arms???

    Good question...there is no right or wrong, it seems.
    You may find the position is dictated by how much adjustment you have left on the threads, and if you can get them back within spec...also how they affect the toe.
    They respond differently on different S3s with the same parts fitted.

    It's suck it and see, i'm afraid.

    Fair point about the ARBs then, I will redo my figures and see how it all works out... Coilovers would be about 400 and I am still waiting on a price for ARBs but anticipate around the 200 mark if I can get the right discount.

    B8's are 539 from DPM although I did consider Koni FSD's which are a bit cheaper. The H&R springs are bonkers expensive though at the moment
    If you want my honest opinion (you'll get it anyway!) 400 coilovers are a waste of money.
    Spend it on proper, high quality springs and dampers which are proven to work.
    Cheap suspension is a sure-fire way to bugger up your S3's handling.


    As for the ARBs, providing I have the suspension sorted etc, would the R32 combo of 23mm/19mm work ok? Obviously if there was no price diff between R32 and aftermarket then its a pointless exercise but from the principle of size...
    Of course they will work, and work well.
    Only in my view, the 1mm smaller Neuspeed front bar is better. Less stiff, giving a less understeery balance, more rear bias and better turn in.

    Both are good...only in my view, the Neuspeed is better.

    This may be down to my driving though...

    Personally, i'd find the difference...as it is just better. But that's me...


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  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingermouse View Post
    The R32 give a simular handling to the std arb but reduce the feeling that the back end it going to tip over... if that makes sence
    You don't get any such feeling with the Neuspeeds
    You turn in, it turns immediately, the rear follows.

    You get on the power hard, the rear arcs out slightly...perfect.

    With the bigger bars, you turn in, the car doesn't turn in as sharply as the weight doesn't move as much, it seems a tad delayed at turning it...but it goes.
    It feels tighter on the bigger bars...less compliant.
    Hit a bump on the bigger bars though...and you know about it...it skitters or jumps.
    The Neuspeeds don't...it's just as it should be, perfectly balanced and crisp - along with B8s and H&R springs.


    At the end of the day...they are all 'better' than standard.
    It's just degrees of better we are speaking about.
    Do you want to spend 100 to gain 2% 'better'.
    I do.
    I want it perfect...
    I'm hyper critical of all cars...not one I've owned has been perfect...but the S3s handling was as good as anything I could have hoped for. For road fast use, wet and dry, and some track use...it was perfect (in my view).


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  37. #36
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    Grand job... I'll do that then


    Thanks Ess, I know you have said it all before but this bungs it all into context for me at least

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  38. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
    Ess....

    It's always nice when someone has a passion for getting a car "right" in regards to handling.

    I've the same passion with detailing. So understand what you are talking about.


    Thing is...I don't care what people fit.
    It doesn't bother me if you want to destroy what little handling your car once had...but if people want to spend money making it right...it's good to be given the information to make an informed choice.

    There is no right and wrong...
    Just some better than others.

    I live where it rains. A lot. I don't live on a racetrack (despite the local 'yoofs' thinking it is) so I want a road car...that's priority.
    A road car set up is what I had...and it worked.

    The fact that it went from me, to another user who races Karts and does trackdays (David R) to an user to races cars proper (DJ Motorsport) and now onto another user on here...and remains unchanged must say somethnig about how well the set up worked?


    I'd like to say thanks for the unbias advice on ARB's, i get really confused as to what each component does and before anyone says anything i've a fairly high IQ so i'm not stupid just suspension and cars mechanical aspects are not at the forefront of my knowledge.
    No problem...always happy to help.


    I think i'm going to go with what you say on these ARB's the Neuspeeds sound good, but as you have already said these are the finishing touches. I'd need to get some new Springs and Shocks to make the best of the S3??
    What would be a typical "lovely" setup to go for??

    1. Springs - H&R?
    2. Shocks - Bilsteins?

    Yup. Compliant, not too stiff, not noisy, they don't leak or break..just bolt them on and enjoy.


    Then when these are nicely setup and installed put the Neuspeeds on to finish the whole lot off. Icing on cake so to speak?
    Pretty much...
    Make sure you exploit tyre pressures to your advantage and get a really good set of alignment settings on there...and it will make the S3 what it always should have been.


    Problem is I've just made my list of things to get a whole lot longer by the looks of things. lol
    ...and more expensive.
    But, You've got to pay to play!


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  39. #38
    thorsy22's Avatar
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    Informative as always Ess, ever since reading your handling stickies at the top of the forummy list keeps getting longer!
    Though at current prices might change the H & R springs to Eibach though did find somewhere that still appears to be selling the H & R springs cheap. Will post the link up when I find it!
    2001 Audi S3 - AMK 210bhp
    Tarox F2000 discs front - Tarox 401 Rallye+ pads
    Tarox F2000 discs rear - Tarox 112 Strada pads
    Goodridge brake lines
    TT pedals
    N249 bypass

    Finally back on the road, have a HUGE list of mods and things to do now!


  40. #39
    thorsy22's Avatar
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    2001 Audi S3 - AMK 210bhp
    Tarox F2000 discs front - Tarox 401 Rallye+ pads
    Tarox F2000 discs rear - Tarox 112 Strada pads
    Goodridge brake lines
    TT pedals
    N249 bypass

    Finally back on the road, have a HUGE list of mods and things to do now!


  41. #40
    Mr.G's Avatar
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    Ess....

    Thanks.

    Can i do this bit by bit (i'm no millionaire!), as in get the springs then shocks a few months later then ARB's after that?

    I think the biggest problem is around "Wales" there are very few companies who know what they are talking about in terms of Setting up Geometry on cars. Audi want 120 for a 4 wheel laser alignment. They'd know nothing about toe in and camber adjustments so it's pointless me taking it there.

    They even made me take my last set of H&R spring off as it altered the rear camber that much they said you will invalidate your new car warranty if you keep them on LOL, many years ago but nothing will have changed.

    Where does one go to get such an informed calculation of setup done on their car? I've no idea where to even begin.?? Don't really want to drive 400 miles or so to get mine done thats for sure, even though i'm 100% sure it's gonna be worth it.

    I didn't know tyre pressure made that much of a difference, shows how un-informed i am.

    G

 

 
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