new R32 and new clio 197 sandwich

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1animal1 said:
Ess...what do you think about the initial query... 197 straight line speed(unsure if modified)... vs....mapped and non mapped S3.... wana kick this fella next time i see him bcos hes dented my ego lol.....just dont wana spend money if its gonna be a no go'er. :drool:
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I didn't find the 197 as quick as the 182s due to it's weight...and it's much harder work...
In the real world a 197 flat out in a straight line would be a match for an S3 I would imagine and re-mapped S3s aren't *that* much quicker than a standard car in a straight line, despite what people think, so you may get a shock even with a re-mapped S3.
The gains are out of corners, off roundabouts etc...so flat out the re-mapped S3 would, I'm sure, be quicker...but possibly not by much.
The 197 is light, lower geared and doesn't run out of puff above 5500 like an S3 does!
It would be closer than a 182 in my opinion...


To my mind, you need to pick your battles carefully...wet day, off a roundabout. Job done. It's not about being fair...it's about using the strengths...and minimising the weaknesses!
 
thats the answer i needed mate..... i was hoping i wouldnt be seen as reckless with this post but i think everyone has the urge now and again:haha:.......

I would like to drive a CC remap now and comapre before having it done..... at the moment i have more important things to spend my money, unless this is going to be a worth while exercise... i wont end up doing it.....

I so want there to be a difference though:sob:
 
1animal1 said:
Thanks Sharpy.... i would but for the sake of £15, i was going to buy one and keep as a spare if that wasnt at fault.... What map have you got on yours?
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I have a Custom Code map, installed at JBS in November of last year, wish I'd had it done sooner. You're still welcome to a blast in it if it'll help you decide to get it done.
 
1animal1 said:
I so want there to be a difference though:sob:
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Oh there will be...

But the trouble with cars like the S3, is that people think they have to rev them out to get the best out of them...if you have an aggressive re-map, it's faster short-shifting and letting the torque work for you.

With a re-mapped S3...it's even more fun playing off roundabouts / out of tight corners...
Fall for the 'rev limiter in every gear' method and you'll find the S3 not a lot faster than standard as you are changing up well past the torque peak, and starting to heatsoak everything nicely...playing into the hands of a light, NA high revving car's hands.

Play to your cars strengths...
 
Ess_Three said:
Oh there will be...

But the trouble with cars like the S3, is that people think they have to rev them out to get the best out of them...if you have an aggressive re-map, it's faster short-shifting and letting the torque work for you.

With a re-mapped S3...it's even more fun playing off roundabouts / out of tight corners...
Fall for the 'rev limiter in every gear' method and you'll find the S3 not a lot faster than standard as you are changing up well past the torque peak, and starting to heatsoak everything nicely...playing into the hands of a light, NA high revving car's hands.

Play to your cars strengths...
Click to expand...

Ess, i struggled when i first got this car, coming from my 150brake A3... i noticed that you have to have confidence in the gearing a changes to get the most out of it... i think this is what your emphasising will be needed 'more so' when remapped.....

SHarper said:
I have a Custom Code map, installed at JBS in November of last year, wish I'd had it done sooner. You're still welcome to a blast in it if it'll help you decide to get it done.
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Sharp..... will PM you in the next couple of weeks if you dont mind me nipping round/meeting up..... i think this will be the best course of action to make my mind up.... would you mind a quick head to head aswell to get an idea of the difference?..... where abouts are you in Sheff?
 
1animal1 said:
Ess, i struggled when i first got this car, coming from my 150brake A3... i noticed that you have to have confidence in the gearing a changes to get the most out of it... i think this is what your emphasising will be needed 'more so' when remapped.....
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My S3 was making around 275BHP/330lb-ft and was quickest changing up at around 5000-5200RPM...
That dropped you back onto the torque. It was fast road and track. You just had to let go of the notion that revving out was fastest...and let the torque do the work. It worked well...but was quite alien after an Integra Type-R!

Roundabouts were fastest if you came off in 3rd...etc.
 
1animal1 said:
Sharp..... will PM you in the next couple of weeks if you dont mind me nipping round/meeting up..... i think this will be the best course of action to make my mind up.... would you mind a quick head to head aswell to get an idea of the difference?..... where abouts are you in Sheff?
Click to expand...

I'm in Dore, don't mind you coming up, but it might be better if I met you down at JBS. We could have a blast up the Unstone by-pass if its back to two lanes...
 
ESS Three,

Why is it Imprza seem to have good stats when really the power loss shouldnt do it any favours, from memory am i not correct in saying the Impreza has a torrsion system which has even more loss at the wheels than a Haldex.
 
mattyboy199 said:
ESS Three,

Why is it Imprza seem to have good stats when really the power loss shouldnt do it any favours, from memory am i not correct in saying the Impreza has a torrsion system which has even more loss at the wheels than a Haldex.
Click to expand...

The Imprezas I've seen dyno'd on a MAHA dyno show more losses than an S3...I've seen up to 100BHP from some trick Imprezas.

They are quick because they are lighter, have different gearing and hold the power longer (area under the graph etc)

A well mapped S3 will be quicker out of tight corners, off roundabouts ets...but when they get to extend the revs, they'll pull you in...that's always been the case of my old S3 against 280-330 BHP Imprezas.

Different power and torque delivery completely.

One advantage an Impreza/Evo has is that it's torque split accross the axles is more linear/fixed...so its more predictable. The Haldex can do funny things...so in many ways the Imprezas and Evos are much easier to drive on the limit because they behave the same way every time.
 
Ess_Three said:
My S3 was making around 275BHP/330lb-ft and was quickest changing up at around 5000-5200RPM...
That dropped you back onto the torque. It was fast road and track. You just had to let go of the notion that revving out was fastest...and let the torque do the work. It worked well...but was quite alien after an Integra Type-R!

Roundabouts were fastest if you came off in 3rd...etc.
Click to expand...

Thats what im still getting used to Glen..... thanks for your help with this, the more opinions the better

SHarper said:
I'm in Dore, don't mind you coming up, but it might be better if I met you down at JBS. We could have a blast up the Unstone by-pass if its back to two lanes...
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Yeah, no probs..... im near Crystal Peaks myself so its just down the road...... are you ok for either next weekend or the one after.....
 
you should take a cooper S on a straight with 150bhp A3, so S3 should have no probs..... i had a few with mine when i had it...... never gone up against a works though and wouldnt want to try TBH...dont know enough about them and the figures are quite hairy :drool:
 
Well, My bro has got a cooper s and we went for a little spin on thursday night. We were at the lights together and from take-off I was ahead. I recon until third gear - around 70mph, I was pulling away, (I recon I must have been around 4 cars ahead of him) and from there on, I was neither pulling away and he was neither catching me - I dont know what would have happened - we came up to a speed camera!
 
Kiteyboy said:
Glen....will the uprated Haldex make a great deal of difference?
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Probably, to some degree.
The problem, in my view, is that you have to do a lot of work to the S3 to get a chassis that's quite as predictable...and if you've done all that work, you don't really need the uprated haldex controller, as most people use it to reduce understeer.

Yes, it will make it *more* predictable towards the limit...but in my view, still not as predictable as a mechanical system.

Some people swear by the uprated Haldex controller...it's getting into a whole different argument...but in my mind using it to reduce understeer is merely using one thing to mask another problem. If you fix the problem (the woeful handling) then you don't need a Haldex controller because you can really lean on the sorted chassis, get the power on early, and make the std Haldex controller work as it should.

I may be wrong...I've driven S3s with them, but never felt the need to try one on mine, with the set-up as it was...but I'd be amazed if it made much difference.
I could provoke the rear to slide about if I wanted...by turning in late and hard, as the boost was kicking in...but to do that, you need lots of grip from the front - something the S3 isn't blessed with.

To go back to the original topic...you drove it like a Clio!
Turned in hard and late and let the rear kick under the torque.

Will it be more predictable?
Yes...
But unless you have the rest of the chassis properly sorted out...you are likely to be in all sorts of other problems with body roll and lack of grip long before it really shows it's worth.

In my view, sending more power to the rear of an S3, earlier...does not address the problems.
But, each to their own.
 
I brought my S3 a month ago and I am loving every single second in it! - So far the car seems to be sound - and in pretty much perfect condition - The prob is that I had never driven one prior to this, and I dont know what to compare it to, and whether its performance is as good as it should be/or if its slacking slightly???

The other day, I was turning on to the North Circular near Palmers Green, and a Silver Y plate S3 cut up the car in front of me, passed the junction and seemed to be boot it. This ****** me off...So I chased him down....and to my suprise, caught up with him, over took him and passed him with no real strain! I got the feeling he was trying to catch up, cos I could see him in my mirror driving eratically trying to overtake others, but he was like a dot in my mirror!
 
Maybe he was a midget and struggles to press the accelerator all the way down?
 
Nickpap said:
Its an 03 S3 unmodified
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im suprised at that then Nick...but then reading back on this post.....the power at the wheels on the S3, with the weight etc wouldnt put it much further ahead of the a3 150bhp...... although i am finding myself that the S3 isnt as straight forward as your average car to drive..... as mentioned before...having to have faith that power is in another gear rather than pushing to the rev limiter like ess three said..is something im still getting used to myself
 
back to my original post...would turning the traction control off made much difference in my little clio contest? i guess not but its the 'Tesco' syndrome.... every little helps:yum:

oh, and this is the only fault code i have on Vagcom, it came back with 'intimitent' after i cleared the rest....i gather this is a replace jobby for the N249 sensor talked about on the recent DV post.... could this contribute to a lower power perhaps?

Address 01 -------------------------------------------------------
Controller: 8N0 906 018 BH
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT 0001
Coding: 10710
Shop #: WSC 01236

1 Fault Found:
17608 - Boost Pressure Control Valve (N249): Mechanical Malfunction
P1200 - 35-00 - -
Readiness: 0000 0000
 
I very rarely used to turn my ESP off...
If I wanted to get sidewards out of a junction, or do a really quick take off, I'd turn it off...but other than that, I'd leave it on, and it was fine.
 
You have to be realistic...STIs/EVOs are just faster in a straight line...and many cars are as fast.
You just have to be careful where and how you play!
 
i didnt think it would make much difference unless your doing a standing start..... although the trip to the inlaws the other day, the day of the clio...i had a 1.9TDI A3 try...he was being a total knob so i decided to do the same(within reason)..... took the a bend at a resonable turn of pace and could see his back end step out in my rear view mirror...god knows how he didnt crash.... anyway, he ran a red light to overtake me....he sure showed me...yes sir'ee
 
audi upgrades
It always amazes me how people can push their own limits so far without knowing how their car will react.

I can see it now, he turned in, understeered - lifted off, **** himself when the car started going sideways.

Wont be long till he planks it in a bush by the sounds of it. Haldex quattro and ESP are very good elerctronic devices but even they wont protect a complete numpty.

Had someone do something similar at a roundabout with an odd camber behind me not so long ago, silly boy lol
 
Ess_Three said:
I very rarely used to turn my ESP off...
If I wanted to get sidewards out of a junction, or do a really quick take off, I'd turn it off...but other than that, I'd leave it on, and it was fine.
Click to expand...

At times I have turned mine off to stop the bogging down effect but am now questioning whether you are quicker as the wheels spin?

performance car magazine has a few articles on the new clio cup and a match against the williams version which makes for good reading
 
rodenal said:
It always amazes me how people can push their own limits so far without knowing how their car will react.

I can see it now, he turned in, understeered - lifted off, **** himself when the car started going sideways.

Wont be long till he planks it in a bush by the sounds of it. Haldex quattro and ESP are very good elerctronic devices but even they wont protect a complete numpty.

Had someone do something similar at a roundabout with an odd camber behind me not so long ago, silly boy lol
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totally agree mate..... ive never lost control of a car yet...never had the need to push the car that hard....if i need to then thats the time to back off IMO on standard roads..... this was just stupidity on his part......
 
voorhees said:
At times I have turned mine off to stop the bogging down effect but am now questioning whether you are quicker as the wheels spin?
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It's fine for showboating, sidewards out of junctions...
And drifting off roundabouts with all 4 wheels spinning...
and for if you are on a track/road in very close proximity to the car behind (when they are literally a coat of paint off your bumper coming out of a tight bend etc) where the cut in throttle could mean the car behind runs into you..

But for normal flat out back road stuff, I left mine on...never felt the need to switch it off...and it's always another last ditch safety net.


performance car magazine has a few articles on the new clio cup and a match against the williams version which makes for good reading
Click to expand...

What's the verdict?
Bigger, faster, more power, better built...but still no better than the Williams?
 
Renaults will always be Renaults, **** ugly (although the clio isnt that bad) and built from recycled nappies
 
1animal1 said:
totally agree mate..... ive never lost control of a car yet...never had the need to push the car that hard....if i need to then thats the time to back off IMO on standard roads..... this was just stupidity on his part......
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The thing is...how do you find out where the limit is, if you never get close to it?
I'm not suggesting everyone try, and crash...but if you don't push the envelope, how do you know what the car is capable of?

I've spun a few fars...usually on the track...and one on the road resulting in a write off. Not something I'm proud of...but it taught me a lesson.

The line between 'in control' and 'crash' can vary...
On a well sorted S3, it's neutral, predictable (ish) and it gives you a bit of warning when you are close to it letting go...
My Integra Type-R didn't...drive, reach limit, crash heavily. Game over. All in under 5 seconds...
The 911 I have no idea where the limit is...wherever it is, it's way higher than the man behind the wheel.
I can throw my Golf about in a manner that would frighten many people...but I know it's not close to the limit of the car, given the fact that the road conditions are not compromised by mud etc.

I suppose this is where trackdays teach you so much...you find the limit and learn to drive up to it...but not on, or beyond it.
 
Ess_Three said:
Did you see 5th Gear last night?
That Clio Cup looks mental...white with black wheels. Some chassis...the Mini is good...but it made that look ordinary.
Click to expand...

Ess_Three said:
The thing is...how do you find out where the limit is, if you never get close to it?
I'm not suggesting everyone try, and crash...but if you don't push the envelope, how do you know what the car is capable of?

I've spun a few fars...usually on the track...and one on the road resulting in a write off. Not something I'm proud of...but it taught me a lesson.

The line between 'in control' and 'crash' can vary...
On a well sorted S3, it's neutral, predictable (ish) and it gives you a bit of warning when you are close to it letting go...
My Integra Type-R didn't...drive, reach limit, crash heavily. Game over. All in under 5 seconds...
The 911 I have no idea where the limit is...wherever it is, it's way higher than the man behind the wheel.
I can throw my Golf about in a manner that would frighten many people...but I know it's not close to the limit of the car, given the fact that the road conditions are not compromised by mud etc.

I suppose this is where trackdays teach you so much...you find the limit and learn to drive up to it...but not on, or beyond it.
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Thats why i want the next meet to be a track day lol... dont get me wrong, have started to lose the back end on my old car, and had this skating on 4 wheels on a roundabout....although admittedly not pushed as far as it can go Glen.... so your right in that way...... i do think the S3 is more of a boring drive than the 150BHP car though.. more predictable (from what i have found so far)
 
Ess_Three said:
Did you see 5th Gear last night?
That Clio Cup looks mental...white with black wheels. Some chassis...the Mini is good...but it made that look ordinary.
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Na, i missed it.... im guessing it was a repeat?.....
 
Theres no word as of yet on Cliosport.net about beating a S3 , there a slightley younger crowd on there , and usually quick to shout about it if the've taken a scalp!

I can only assume the driver wasn't a enthusiast or he didn't know he was racing?

p
 
na, he knew mate....he flew up the previous bypass to catch me.... it was a private plate....although no other indications other than that......
 
Ess_Three said:
What's the verdict?
Bigger, faster, more power, better built...but still no better than the Williams?
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Yes it is heres a quote which speaks volumes "the williams floods you with feedback whilst the cup batters you with G-force"
 
Gets you thinking really, how many small hatches that could actually beat the s3... i was thinking of a ford racing puma before the audi... can imagine they handle to the extents of cup clios and the likes. Whats the new s3 suspension set up like???? And guys, lets be honest, would you really spend hard earnt cash on something plastic and french????
 
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