S3 Anti-roll bars

AL_B

AL_B

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Just some info:

I've been trying to get a stiffer and adjustable rear anti-roll bar for months for the S3. But with no luck.

Forge - tried to make some, but the manual bending process wasn't accurate enough. The cost of investing in proper equipment out weighed demand.

Eibach - don't do one.

Abt - Do a stiffer anti-roll bar. Spotted on German site. But on ringing Abt Sportsline UK, they say that anti-roll bar is only suitable for with their lowered suspension. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

So, it would seem, the only cure for the S3's understeer is completely new suspension setup [which I can't afford /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif ]

AL
 
Momo and OMP do braces as well......you could check them out.

Good luck with geetting rid of the S##TTY understeer of the Audi.
 
Gambba,

I think you may have confused two types of bar.

I am not talking about "strut-braces". A strut-brace is a metal bar which attaches to the top of the suspension struts, which can be seen in the S3/TT engine bay (one is fitted as standard). Which I think are what Momo and OMP make.

An "Anti-roll bar" or "Stabilizer bar", is a bar which attaches to the suspension under the car.

Regards

Alan
 
Don't thank me yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I took a look and sure enough, you were right, I was wrong. There's no listing for the S3 anywhere. They've got a set for the A3, but not for the "S".

Sorry Dude /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
Al, tried a Google search with 'Sway Bar' (the Aussie/far eastern term for anti-roll bar) and found this.

It's in squiggly writing, but it definitely says S3 and it is definitely a rear bar.

So then I looked at Neuspeed themselves, they list the bar as a TT bar but then they don't have the S3 in the US, so they probably wouldn't list it.

hope this helps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Don't talk to me about anti-roll bars, my A3 has been to the dealership 5 times (yes 5!!) and they still haven't sorted the knocking noise its making /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif
 
Richard,

Thanks for the info. Forgot about the ETKA CD, got it at home, but not installed it yet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

In theory, the stiffer rear anti-roll bar should increase rear roll-stiffness, reduce body-roll slightly AND reduce understeer. But may increase oversteer characteristics.

It only takes a increase of a few millimetres in roll-bar thickness to have an effect on roll-stiffness. There is a formula in Fred Puhns book - its pretty complicated. I can post it if anyones interested, there might be some mechanical engineers on here who will be able to explain it in laymans terms. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Not sure who, if anybody, supplies Neuspeed gear in the UK.

AL

 
Hi,

Since depositing my last mail I have been doing some research on anti-roll bars.

I have been looking at my own copy of ETKA VW/AUDI parts catologue and found that their are two front roll-bars for the S3 a 19mm and 20mm and two for the rear 14mm & 15mm. Audi have confirmed that I have a 19mm front & 15mm rear.

I then checked other VAG quattros sharing the same platform i.e. TT and 4 motion and R32. and gusess what -same part numbers - just different letter at the end designating thickness of bar. All other link coponents are the same:

4 motion 20 front £30 16 rear £25
R 32 23 front £40 19 rear £40
S3 19or20 front £45 14 or 15 rear £30

(prices approx)

So I want to decease the amount of body roll - I'm not so worried about the understeer. So I have ordered through Martyn at Parts Dep't 01322 338833 (very helpful & cheap)

A S3 front 20mm and 4motion rear 16mm (1mm increase each)

and

A R32 front 23mm and 4 motion rear 19mm (4mm increase each)

So I can play and get the set up right for me.

It's also got me thinking about the R32 springs - not as low as quattro GMBH but look slightly lower than my S3

BTW the front and rear anti-roll bars from Neuspeed were £400!!!

Cheers


Rich










 
Richard,

Thats fantastic! Thanks for looking into it in so much detail. I owe you a beer or two I think. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

How did you confirm which thickness of bars you have on currently - did you just phone the dealer? Or was all that info on the ETKA?

Mailed Neuspeed yesterday, haven't had a response yet. But 400 quid is way too much.

Cheers

AL
 
Hi Al,

I took my log book into the Audi dealer - who took my chassis no. off the sticker. He then puts into his computer and whole series of three letter codes come up. (more than on the sticker)

On EKTA each anti-roll bar has the corresponding three letter codes advising what model of S3 it fits. So you have to look through his computer listing of your codes unti you find the ones that match the front and rear bars on EKTA.

Car now booked into AMD on tues 11th March, to have the R32 bars fitted.

Cheers

Richard

 
Well Damn Dude, that's alot of good info, thanks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
What do you think though, any chance I might be able to go for the 20mm? And if I get a thicker roll bar, do I run the risk of twisting my droplink?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
RichardS3,

Thanks for the update. The "feeling" you experienced in the handling with the new rear anti-roll bar fitted sounds strange. Not saying I don't believe you, just that your experience in the wet with the bar fitted is completely opposite to the theory. If anything you perhaps should have got more tendancy to oversteer.

I discussed this topic with Glen (Ess_three) at the weekend, and he has some anti-roll bar plans for his car, but concurred on the theory: stiffer rear anti-roll bar [should] equal less understeer.

But I am confused at the moment. Why do all the cars listed above, S3, TT, A3 Quattro, R32, all have a much thicker front ant-roll bar? Usually by a factor of 4mm? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Cheers

AL
 
[ QUOTE ]
AL B said:
But I am confused at the moment. Why do all the cars listed above, S3, TT, A3 Quattro, R32, all have a much thicker front ant-roll bar? Usually by a factor of 4mm? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll add another word to lost it's answer, just to help quantify things:

Distribution.

Weight distribution....loads more weight at the front of our cars than at the rear.

To be honest here:
You can spend your time (as much of it as you want!) sorting out thicker anti-roll bars to try and quash understeer...but there are subtle differences between understeer and lack of front end grip / bite.

Adding larger anti roll bars - especially at the rear - *should* assist in reducing understeer....but if you still have the crap Audi standard suspension settings you will not have increased the front end bite.

On a long sweeping bend, the car will probably feel flatter and more neutral with larger bars fitted...you may even be able to 'loosen' up the rear by going for a really big rear bar...but try going into a tight corner too hot and you simply wont have the bite to get the chassis working properly.

Something needs to be done to try and get the front end to turn in correctly - and that to me means turn in quickly, precisely with good feel and far more grip than standard....this should then allow the front outer tyre to take the load and allow the rest of the chassis to pivot around this loaded tyre....which will allow the rest of the chassis to 'work'.

In my eyes...this means adding two things that the wooly, super safe Audi suspension settings do not have:
Front negative camber.
Front toe out.

Anyone who is following where I'm going with this will be aware that having a front end that doesn't wash out at every opportunity is the only real starting point for subtle chassis tuning - which is what anti-roll bar tuning is in my opinion.

So, before everyone rushes out and orders ETKAs full collection of ARBs...try some aggressive settings on your front suspension first, and see how far up the grip ladder you can move your starting point, before attempting to fix a problem that may not be the problem at all!

I have done some front end mods (negative camber & toe out)...and I need more to get it to where I'll be satisfied...then, and only then, will I try to alter the chassis cornering attitude.
All that adding larger bars all round is going to do to a badly front end gripping car, is to allow it to understeer off the road whilst remaining nice and flat!
Not ideal at all.

Go with the front end adjustments...they are free!!
Then, and only then, try anti-roll bars.

Of course, you all may think I'm talking ********...which is fine. But these are my views and they work for me...and anyone who has driven my S3 or experienced it on one of the runs, will concur that it handles far better than it should, based upon the limited additional parts fitted!

Glen.
 

I was one of the few who drive Ess_threes car on Saturday past. Definitely had more front bite and better balance than my standard car. Acutally, could you tell us how much negative camber and toe out you have??? And, as Drill asked, how much has it affected tyre wear?

 
[ QUOTE ]
Drill said:
But doesn't the camber and toe-in settings effect tire wear? And just how "easy" is it to adjust? And if I want to reduce body roll, I'd still upgrade the ARB, right.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez...what do you want? The moon on a stick? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Yes, to some degree adding negative camber & toe out will increase tyre wear on the inner edge, but as with everything you have to work out what is more important to you.
On an S3 people tell you that you can't adjust the camber. ********. You can move the lower ball joints outwards on the slotted holes that they are provided with. This will not give you huge camber gains, but you should get just over 1 degree.
you will hovever have to get it adjusted using the correct 4 wheel alignment rig to get things spot-on.

Anti roll bars will reduce body roll...but: ideally they should be used in conjunction with stiffer than standard dampers as the ARB is just another 'spring' for the momentum of the rolling bodyshell to load up...if the ARB unloads too quickly you can get strange lurching symptoms...I know that people tell you that ARBs are a win win solution...but they do have handling traits that they add to the equation.

ARBs are great for minimising bodyroll when combined with uprated springs / dampers...

Adding stiff very springs / dampers to a standard car alone will kill the ride and the cars abiliry to absorb bumps...so that in the wet, if you hit a bump mid corner, you will enter the nearest field!

Very still ARBs will allow the car to corner flatter and will help kill understeer as long as the tyres have grip...ie, enough front end grip to turn in, and enough rear grip to not allow the back to step out....but you can experience lurching when unloading from cornering. (This is how I wrote my Integra Type-R off!)

Modestly uprated springs & Dampers and modestly uprated ARBs should give the perfect solution...

Hovever; there are other parts to the handling equation:
Tyre compound

Tyre pressure - play with these...they are critical to the cars handling! I run mine at 0.2 bar above suggested.

Front camber and toe - as previously discussed...you need the grip to start with!

To some degree rear camber / toe...the rear wheels should follow the fronts on a 4WD car to make the best of the added rear drive compared to a FWD.

Driving style - what I like and what works for me, may not work for you

Road surface & number of miles covered - I don't do many miles and I use all sorts of roads...so I can't afford to have the car set up like a scateboard...but I don't really give a toss about tyre wear!


I'm sure there are many more...they all have a bearing on things...you change one part and the relationship between the others changes due to additional work being done etc.

You just have to play about...

Glen.
 
Well Said.... I say (there you go a multiple word answer)..
The standard set up tends to scrub the outside of my left front tyre on the track(most tracks run clockwise here).
And I have been trying to find someone here in Sweden that really knows what they are up to (not just bolt on springs etc..). to look at a new setup for the car.
I also believe it lacks front end bite at initial turn in and have fiddled with tyre pressures (even tried setting it unbalanced at one time) but I think the suggestion of adjusting the camber is the best one so far, not sure about toe as I want to maintain my high speed stability.
now all I need is to find an english speaking wheel alignment expert here in sweden and some cheap pirelli's for race days.
The season starts again in MArch
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mark R said:
I was one of the few who drive Ess_threes car on Saturday past. Definitely had more front bite and better balance than my standard car.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cheers Mark...but yes, far more bite and feel...however the trade off for corner loaded stability is a slight nervousness in a straight line...which some people, like me, see as steering feel!
My car will wander slightly, following ruts in the road - tramlining if you will...but in mt opinion this is an added bonus, not a problem.

So, add negative camber & toe out and you will get the following:

Better feel in a straight line...getting rid of that God awful dead feeling that all Audis have nowadays. Or perhaps you will see it as twitchy / nervous...each to their own.

Better turn in and loaded corner grip - as previously discussed - allowing the rest of the chassis to work better.


[ QUOTE ]

Acutally, could you tell us how much negative camber and toe out you have??? And, as Drill asked, how much has it affected tyre wear?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have 1.1 degree of negative each side...not enough for me!
I have run that for 7000 miles and have no irregular wear patterns accross two completely different sets of tyres.

I'm looking to add a bit more...but i'm not going to get onto that until I've proved that it can be done safely and reliably.

I ran 1.7 degrees of neg camber on my ex g/fs Ibiza Cupra Sport...over 20000 miles on a set of Toyo T1Ss and no irregular tyre wear at all.


Think of this:
Standard Audi S3...understeers like buggery...so wrecks the outer edge of the tyre understeering, whilst wearing the main body of the tyre evenly

Add negative camber: understeers less but works the tyre way harder, so still wears the outer edge due to working harder on corners as it is now taking much more load, but also wears the inner edge by going long distances with more weight on the inner edge.
The result is still a fairly evenly worn tyre but with both the inner edge and the outer edge worn together..so all is well!!


I also run 1mm of toe out each side...which if I remember correctly is just outside the factory allowable tolerance anyway, so no big deal...but the effect is noticable.

All this works for me...
But that's not to say that you would like how my car feels...BTW anyone who attends any meets I'm at is obviously welcome to try it for themselves...which doesn't really help those who live long distances away...never mind eh!

Glen.
 
[ QUOTE ]
lost_it said:
Well Said.... I say (there you go a multiple word answer)..


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you...I try my best to be of assistance!
...but you go steady there...you'll be wearing your keyboard out with all that typing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]

The standard set up tends to scrub the outside of my left front tyre on the track(most tracks run clockwise here).
And I have been trying to find someone here in Sweden that really knows what they are up to (not just bolt on springs etc..). to look at a new setup for the car.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...common trackday wear...
I used to completely destroy a slick tyre at trackdays in my Honda...not pretty.
I got the road handling sorted...but I never ever fully sorted the track settings. Doh!


[ QUOTE ]

not sure about toe as I want to maintain my high speed stability.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong...it doesn't jump about all over the road...but whereas the standard car will pretty much drive itself without having to hold the wheel, mine will wander under power...but it's fine on motorways etc.

It's almost like adding 'torque steer'...that's the best way to describe it.
Not damgeroud of disconcerting...just there...and you have to be aware of it.

I personally will accept that as a trade off for more corner grip.

Glen.
 
Good info Glen, always good to hear from someone that's tried and tested something.........not just heard about it...

Any thoughts on why the difference in ARB's on the TT to the S3? I haven't driven a TT so don't know if the handling is different to that of the S3 (probably still understeers, but is it better?), so what I'm asking is does the TT run increased toe out and camber from factory over the S3 due to the increased rigidity of the front end with the 20mm bar over the S3's 19mm?
 
From what I remember, the S3 runs tha same size ARBs as the 'Mk1' TT...the pre-ESP versions.

The 'Mk2' TT runs 1mm bigger front - more understeer!
and 1mm smaller rear - even more understeer!

The later TTs are absolute slugs to drive...they run the same camber and toe settings as the S3 (from memory) but with the sloppy ARBs they are a posers delight and a real drivers nightmare!

I love the TT to look at...that was the choice for me...TT or S3.
After half a day in each, starting with the TT, it only took 2 minutes to realise that the S3s chassis was better (which considering how numb and safe the S3 is, is really saying something!), so I bought the S3 as I don't look at my car...I drive it.

So basically...S3 vs TT:
One is for posing down the high street and one is for driving on a back road. I'm sure you can work out which is which? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Glen.
 
This topic has moved on somewhat and is proving very interesting.

When I tested the 1mm increase to my rear ARB in the wet I was being cautious and to be fair I don't think I was driving in a way that would give a good camparable to the standard set up.

I'm heading up north this weekend so I will have lots of time to test it give proper feedback.

To be honest I think I agree with Ess three, suspension on a car should be tweeked and work in harmony with the other coponents, so I think I may have rushed into getting the VW r32 arb's which are 4mm bigger as it may totally unbalance the car. But I may try it just for research purposes.

What I'm trying to achieve with my fiddling is basically less body roll, good grip but without lowering the car or making the ride any firmer. (I know I'm asking a lot and may be the only solution will end up being new lowered springs and shocks)

The S3 goes into AMD Tuesday to have the 1mm increased front ARB fitted and the tracking and cambers re-set, I may ask Scott to add 1/2 degree of negative camber to each side, Ess three how much negative have you moved yours by? and has there been any side effects?

I had a Corrado VR6 and one of the guys on the Corrado forum added about 1/2 degree of negative camber to the front wheels, I did the same and added eibach anti-roll bars and the cars handled like a go cart!

May be I should leave the car alone and just be happy ....


Rich



 
Drill,
Fitting the S3 ARBs will complement the S3 springs and dampers, so that should be a good move.

Basically A3TQ's will respond in a similar way to the S3 as they have the same basic suspension design front and rear.
What I do not know however, is if you have much adjustment on the bottom ball joints to add negative camber.
I know the S3 has longer lower arms to give the wider track, and that the S3 arms have slots for adjustment...but I don't know if the A3TQ has this facility...the regular FWD A3 does not have much by the way of adjustment.

The A3TQ will repond well to all we have discussed:
Springs and dampers
Anti-roll bars
Negative camber
Toe out

All cars will respond well to adding some front caster too, but since there appears to be absolutely no way of adding this except for a fairly major re-engineer, we'll disregard caster from now on.

FWD A3s respond differently as they have the tortion beam rear end.
In my experience, these cars respond better to a 'huge' rear anti-roll bar to try and get the back to 'come round'...but obviously this can be risky as 'oversteer' type symptoms on a FWD car is not clever...unless you specifically want / are expecting it.
FWD A3s would therefore respond in a similar way to adding negative camber...is fact they can probably use slightly more than the 4WD cars as the front end has to do all the work - ie, grip going into the corner and pull the car out of the corner - where the quattro cars will make use of some rear end drive assistance at this point.

I'm fairly certain that there is next to no adjustment on the FWD A3 balljoints...perhaps 1/2 degree if you are lucky...so good luck anyone who tries to add much more than that!

One more option for A3 drivers would be to investigate adding S3 lower arms in place of the shorter A3 items...this would add plenty of negative camber...but I'm not sure how much, nor am I certain if the arms are even interchangable (will the balljoints fit etc)
 
Yup, there is no ball joint adjustment on the FWD A3 however, there is room to drill another hole or turn the hole into a slot apparently. I was not convinced by this on the grounds of safety and the person who suggested it for my car was cagey about showing me the component.

Apparently, you CAN fit the S3 lower arm, but again I aint seen them side by side so didn't fancy ordering a part that may not have worked...
 
Well, that definately gives me something to think about, thanks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'll be going in to Audi today, so I'll get a German price for the std ARB's. And let y'all know if I order them, or if they'll even fit.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
Still no rain - so I can't test how the increased rear -bar performs in the wet.

On Saturday I had the tracking done and also carried out the mod to the cambers as posted by Ess three.

I know Ess three got -1.5 degrees camber each side. The mechanic could only get a max of -1.0 degrees each side and I checked and the adjustment bolt was definitely on the edge of the slot.

There is definitely more grip from this £38.00 mod over and above what I have gained from the rear anti-roll bar, although I'm yet to give it a full test (Without the other half in the car!)

I'm still contemplating fitting the 1mm stiffer front bar -But I need to weigh the benifits of less roll at the front against any possible reduction in front end grip. Only one way to find out I suppose!

I'll keep you posted

Cheers

Rich
 
[ QUOTE ]
RichardS3 said:

On Saturday I had the tracking done and also carried out the mod to the cambers as posted by Ess three.

I know Ess three got -1.5 degrees camber each side. The mechanic could only get a max of -1.0 degrees each side and I checked and the adjustment bolt was definitely on the edge of the slot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the miss-understanding...
I have managed to get -1.1 degrees negative each side...but would like -1.5!
I feel there is still more to come by going to -1.5 degrees...possibly even as high as -1.6/1.7...but until I can re-engineer a way of doing it...i'm stuck with -1.1.

Good to hear that you seem to have gained an increase in grip...hopefully you'll also find an increase in feel too...and added predictability as the suspension loads up.

Glen.
 
Lee - when you had the GmbH stuff fitted, did they fit the thicker anti roll bar Richard was talking about?

Dunc
 
Very interesting thread, I have just fitted Koni adjustable dampers + H&R springs to my A3 1.8T, the improvement is great however I still experiance body roll when conering hard.

Could someone recommend which ARB to go for? either:

4Motion?
R32?

any would u change the front and or the rear
 
Hey, where in Oxon are you?

I can supply you with an eibach ARB for £229.99 +vat

Happy to offer a 5% forum discount!

Rich
 
Didcot. I wanted to get something that looked standard and £229 is a lot different from £37 above!

how much thicker is the Eibach to standard? It's quite firm as it is so I don't want to go too mad?

I had a look at your site but couldn't find much, can u give me a list of A3 add-ons?

Thanks
 
As a matter of fact, I'm going in today to see about ordering a 16mm rear ARB from the Golf VR6 4-Motion to go on my A3 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Gonna cost about €55 total /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
HI You all

What you are doing by increasing rear roll stiffness is to decrease rear end grip.. The better way would be to decrease front roll stiffness which will increase front grip but leave the rear end unchanged.
There is a very old Adage about Suspension engineering and that is work on the end where you have the problem 1st..

I am sure there will be a lot of discussion around this I hope.
 
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