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Thread: COMING FROM BMW

  1. #1
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    COMING FROM BMW

    Okay guys, after a year of not so trouble free motoring I'm looking at getting rid of my BMW 318ci and coming over to what sounds like the far more reliable world of Audi. I'm looking at getting an A3 2.0FSi or (if the pounds stretch that far) an A3 2.0TDi. I've got a test drive booked for Friday and was wondering if you could tell me (without too much Audi bias) what to expect if I make the change? Is it all good or have the A3's shown some common faults to date?

    My Beemer seems to have had pretty much every "common" fault there is and I just want to avoid it happening again.

    Cheers! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    I know I'd get ribbed for coming over from the other side!

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Use the force Tom...sorry I thought you said dark side! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    What was the question?!?! Oh yes...IMO I never buy any new model of motor until at least a year after it starts shipping. There are always more teething issues, recalls etc with new models however much testing the lads in Germany do.

    Plus, it lets the tuning boys have a play first and get things set up right [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]


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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Get ya self an S3 and become a BeemerBeater! Never met a Beemer driver yet that likes going fast on bendy bits (even the 'bends' on the Birmingham test strip (M6 Toll!) ) - but then only had mine since 19 Feb!!! Turbocharged Sex on Four Wheels and still close to 40 mpg at old lady speeds - you know it makes sense!!!

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    If you want any advice on the new A3 2.0 Fsi or Tdi, you need to talk to Yak or Irish.

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    ^^^ I belive thats sarcasm ^^^
    Check out a post that i've made on this forum recently 'Buying an A3 (p)' There is alot of debate on the TDI FSI on there [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    lol!!! TDI ya know it makes sense!!!

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    318Ci is still a cracking car though my wife has the Cab version but my new shape A3 has a better built interior and the handling is more fun than a 3 series saloon/coupe.

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    yak
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    3-series has still something to it that A3 lacks. Maybe it's the BMW [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    - Yak

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Well a 318 is faster than you think Irish I have owned a saloon with the 2 litre valvetronic and it revs smoothly all the way to the redline and if you make use of the revs can go at a good old pace with a lovely rasp. Off the mark you TDi would not pull away from a well heeled one!!

    One of the best 4 cylinder engines on the market IMO

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    I've had a play with many a 318ci in my Golf and they're not quick cars or "faster than I think".

    Nor is a Golf GTI standard I grant you but a 318ci is not a fast car - it's 143bhp and heavy. The engine cries out for more power.

    In fact I was driving a 323ci a few weeks ago and my Golf pulls harder than that too I felt.

    I was half tempted by 320ci's before going for the Audi but the fact that it's being replaced soon also put me off.

    Yak - we just agreed on something.

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Here we go again... how come you always right are you God or something Irish ????

    Never said a 318Ci was fast not just quite as slow as you seem to think, I think owning two puts me in a very good position to judge don't you think??

    To quote you..."wouldn't pull you out of bed" a rather silly comment by anyone who knows about cars.

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    I just said that Irish.......

    I have owned a 318i Saloon never mind the chipped 320d before that, as for red line all I have to say is Civic Type R, Clio 182 all needed to be reved to get their best as higher revs mean longer in gear time and greater torque multiplication for a longer time=faster acceleration and more torque at the wheels.

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Please explain "more torque at the wheels" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    This is a rather long explanation that I orignally posted at type-r.org, Irish will love this!!! Hopefully this will enlighten you garethj

    Petrol Vs Diesel

    In reality it is the torque that reaches the drivewheels that dictates both acceleration AND max speed. This figure is comprised of engine torque and gearing.

    Higher engine torque = higher torque at the wheels = higher acceleration.

    Lower gearing = higher torque at the wheels = higher acceleration.

    Remember that TORQUE is the only engine output a driver feels. Power is a kind of esoteric measure that is simply calculated from Torque and Engine Speed. If we are talking BHP and lbs.ft then the equation is:-

    Power= (Torque x rpm)/5252

    But the power on most cars is rated at the flywheel and not the wheels so the powerloss through various transmissions is:

    FWD 15%
    RWD 20%
    4WD 25%


    Power dictates how much advantage you can make of gearing

    Ive seen a few analogies before, but the best one Ive have ever seen is the analogy of the human body as we all now the basics of how we work don't we? So I shall use this analogy of Bill and Ben on their bikes.

    Torque is what your legs generate. If you press harder on the pedals youll accelerate harder. You use the gears on your bike to multiply the torque your legs generate. In 1st gear the bike wheel may only rotate once for every 5 times you spin the pedals. In this gear you can zip up a hill (or accelerate really quickly), as this has thegearing has the effect of multiplying your leg power by 5.

    If you maintain a steady force on the pedals, the bike accelerates at a steady rate. The torque you are generating stays constant, but the faster you spin your legs the more power you muster. Eventually you discover that you run out of of steam and cannot peadle any faster, and you cant really get any force into your leg strokes. This is like your engine going upto and beyond its peak power point.

    Higher gears allow you to move along quickly whilst your legs go round at a comfortable pace. Nice one. Try to pull away from a standstill in the same gear however and (without enormous multiplication of your leg strength) itll take you significantly longer to get up to speed.

    Bill and Ben are out two exaples of engine. Bill has very strong legs. But struggles to pedal very fast. So whilst he can put alot of force into each reveloution, he can only manage slow rotations. This is the good old TDi

    Ben conversely has very athletic and supple legs - . He has hoever very flexible and fast moving ankle muscles (think VTEC) that helps him to peddle very fast. Although his legs lack power he can pedal very fast.

    We line them up on the drag strip and the light goes green and Away!! Bill storms into the lead, his rear tyre barely able to contain the thrust created by those strong legs. But he soon cannot pedle any faster, and hes quickly forced to change up into second, then thirdand look at this! Ben is staging a comeback, still in first with his legs going round alot faster than Bills. Whilst Bill is producing major leg thrust, hes currently using 3rd gear, which only doubles the torque his legs generate before it reaches the rear wheel. Bill is still in first, so his supple legs continues to be subject to 5-times multiplicationand hes reeling Bill in!

    Its a similar story when they are up to maximum speed. By enormous coincidence they appear to have an identical flat-out pace. Bill is pumping his top gear firmly and steadily ~ wind resistance and friction conspire against him he can go no faster. Ben is right up there with him, but hes still in 3rd his legs pedaling faster than Bill.

    Back to the world of cars. You should now be able to understand why TDIs are often quoted as having massive in-gear thrust, whilst its acknowledged that they are not quite as good when it comes to both 0-60 and top speed although they are catching up ie BMW 330D or VAG 150TDi. Most TDIs barely get to 60 in third, so in addition to requiring an extra gear change over most petrol models, they pass the magic 60 in 3rd ~ which is by definition higher geared than 2nd, so torque is multiplied to a lesser extent before it gets the chance to arrive at the drivewheel and do the business. This gearbox multiplication is the real important factor and why two engines of the same power output can seem faster.

    As diesels operate using compression ignition they dont require spark plugs. This omission unfortunately makes advancing the spark somewhat difficult the main cause of their high rpm torque defecit.

    Because ignition cannot be adjusted like a petrol car they cannot rev to such a high level as a petrol engine.

    A VTEC engine with 140lbs.ft max torque CANNOT punch as hard as a TDI with 200lbs.ft. In a VTEC however you will choose to accelerate with a lower gear than the TD, so the torque it does have is multiplied to a greater extent before it reaches the wheels. A TDI might feel impressive in 4th~ certainly more impressive than a VTEC in 4th, but the VTEC driver would undoubtedly pop it into 3rd (or even 2nd) to make better progress. The TDI has no such option. So high RPM means that we can stay in a lower gear for longer!!

    As a rule - lower gearing makes better use of what torque you have available, but leads to unfashionably (and often uncomfortably) high-rev cruising.

    This gearbox multiplication is the real important factor and why two engines of the same power output can seem faster. It is also why some people say this engine feels more tourqey even though engine A has the same power/torque as engine B.

    Another note needs to be made of chipping, most engine re-maps will increase the power but it is the torque that they concentrate on.

    This ia a simplified version of somthing that helped me understand the realtionship between Petrol and Diesel. It shows why Petrol still has the edge but Diesel is nearly there.

    As the increase in Power for a diesel comes from an increase in fuel/air density which comes from the injection pressure currently at 1600 for a common rail system and 2000 for a PDi system (VAG). The increased pressure gives more torque at any set engine speed for a like for like engine capacity. This leads to smaller more powerful engines able to match Petrol via the Gearbox/torque ratio.

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    turbo's were banned on F1 cars in the 80's cos they were too fast [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] and the F1 engine's they use now only last about 1000miles before they need a full rebuild from over revving

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Not because they were too fast but to restrict power, but modern N/A Formula 1 engines can give the same power as those 80'S turbos as technology has moved on. Go two post's up to my Petrol v Diesel!!

    Yes they need a rebuild but most engines that have been thrashed for several hours would need the rebuild to maintain relliability and if the engine goes you are out of the race.

    Honda and BMW still make the the best N/A engines the have the awards to prove it. VAG makes the best production Turbo (1.8T).

    The clear fact is Turbo engines weigh more than N/A. I have owned Turbo Petrol, Diesel and N/A it all depends on your driving style ane the way you wish to drive, some people prefer to have a revy engine some people like the torque thrust you get from a Turbo.

    To me N/A like the Clio and CTR is more fun to drive but I do have a BMW 1 Series 120d on order for Sept!!

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Jezy thanks for the very lengthy post, I already knew the technical details of how torque & power relate, it's just your explanation of them that I didn't understand. Still don't understand your more torque at the wheels comment.

    BTW F1 cars rev to about 18,000 rpm, it would be fun to see a diesel try to rev that high.

  20. #19
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    JezyG nice story, that was actually well written. Irish, read JezyG's story again and you'll soon find an answer to your Type-R question. Admitted, Type-R is quite disappointement in low-revs, but once you take it to 6000 and more, it's actually nice. Not good for everyday driving, but certainly in situations where it doesn't matter if it's silent, or eats a lot petrol [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    - Yak

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    I don't need to read any stories.

    As I have engineer status??? [edited]
    And as for your smart arse comment about F1 cars and me knowing nothing, when [edit] did we get onto F1 cars?????

    I said normal everyday cars which require revving the [censored] out of them to get some power are pointless.

    So maybe you should do the reading.

    You and Yak should get a room [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1luvu.gif[/img]

  22. #21
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    What I think you wrote is false.

    However I know what you are trying to say, Yak.

    Petrols are quicker of the line, diesels are better after the line. It depends on wat sort of driving you like.

    Similar to S4 4.2 V8 and the M3 3.2, which would yo prefer for everyday driving?

    Dave

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    seriously I would prefer the S4 purley because ot torque etc..

    Dave

  24. #23
    yak
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Naah, I could take S4 for Quattro-ability, but otherwise, M3. There's just more to it, saying "I have S4" - "what's that?", and "I have M3" - "fu" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    Anyway, M3 has more status & I believe it's quicker on the track, at least M3 CSL is.

    - Yak

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Irish....

    Wow big deal your an Engineer...so what????

    [edited]

    Maybe you could quantify your arguments a bit more then my stories may be used to have an intelectual disscusion, [edited]. Which is all you seem capable of resorting to when anybody say's anything you don't agree with. [edited]

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW


    Well, that's Toms thread competely hi-jacked. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

    Hope you enjoy your new A3 Tom. The only experience I can relate to is driving a courtesy car A4 1.9TDi (130) and an A4 2.0FSi. It would have been the TDi any day.

    Regardless though, it's only your opinion that matters, sure you'll be happy with whatever you decide. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

    Oh, and welcome onboard [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

  27. #26
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Well you need to start where the problem begins [which seems to me to be that two opinions were not discussed objectively - I don't want the aetiology of this argument posted as a veiled attempt to start it up again and I have again edited this post accordingly.]


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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    To get things back on track I would go for the TDi over the FSi because the performace is about the same and even though the TDi is slightly more expensive you would gain back as the TDi has slower depreciation.

  29. #28
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Personally, I think the TDI is a more convincing package also - better real world economy, better real world performance, probably less depreciation, shame about the dirty diesel pumps and black smoke [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    As Mark said though, test drive both cars and make your own conclusion as it is the individual buyer that has to live with their purchase...

  30. #29
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    Totally agree the best way is to try both. The diesel has the edge on the residual side of things due to increased economy etc. But for a 2.0 petrol the FSI really does offer tremendous economy but remember to see the best results the car has to be run on low sulphur 98 ron min. In this country that basically means optimax as most other SUL is only 97ron!

  31. #30
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    The 2.0FSi gives better economy than my 1.6MPi!!


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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    [ QUOTE ]
    JezyG said:
    The 2.0FSi gives better economy than my 1.6MPi!!



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats quite believable as the 1.6Mpi has been about for a bit and has none of the fancy fuel saving features of the newer FSI engines.

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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    although I always thought the 1.6 was quite a smooth refined engine for a four pot.......

  34. #33
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    The 1.6 is not bad sponds kinda roarty, but not quites as good as the BMW 1.8 Valvetronic, so far the bperformance is OK but with only 900 miles on the clock the engine feels rather tight. What sort of millage does the mpi start to loosen up?

  35. #34
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    The 1.8 valvetronic is a bit more advanced technology wise though...... still 1600 Audi engine is still a good one and refined enough to cope well with motorway speeds etc. only criticism is that it could do with a little more poke!! Should gradually get a bit better as you put the miles on!

  36. #35
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    I have a new A3 2.0FSI currently and it is fine for round-town driving and pulling away at low speeds, but on the motorway, it is GUTLESS...


  37. #36
    yak
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    Re: COMING FROM BMW

    simont, lower gear helps as with all the petrol engines. This one is no different (you can use even 3rd on the motorway speeds)

    - Yak

 

 

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