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Thread: upgarded SMIC

  1. #1
    abdus's Avatar
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    upgraded SMIC

    anybody ever used one on an A3? seems to produce the same perfomance as an FMIC...

    same as this:

    http://www.tyrolsport.com/vwperformance.htm
    Last edited by abdus; 20th November 2007 at 21:08. Reason: typo error

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  3. #2
    HTC
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    I have one. Though, mine is the boost factory item.




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    Concensus is that these side mounts dont make much of a difference.

    For that price, once imported, you would not be far off the price of a nice fmic.

  5. #4
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Yup, you could import a FMIC with new piping from the USA for less than the price of the Tyrolsport item.

    The biggest concern with the A3/S3 and Mk4 intercooler is the pancake pipe which severely restricts airflow.

    You retain this restriction with an upgraded SMIC hence very little difference over stock.

    You also retain that restriction with the Forge FMIC, which I dont understand, and despite being publicy asked on UKMKIVS.net, they have not got a reply for.

    The best option for an A3 is DEFINATELY the eBay VWVortex front mount intercooler. Small core is you want to hide it and large core if you dont care.

    Mine was under £300 including import and duty.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

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    the s3 doesn't have the pancake pipe does it?


  7. #6
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    I think Abdus is asking about an A3.

    However, it MUST have the pancake pipe as the hot flow goes the same way doesnt it?

    From turbo round the back of engine block then down to nearside SMIC, then across to offside SMIC and out to intake.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  8. #7
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    My mistake, the S3 doesnt have the pancake pipe.

    The big pipe with the hand on it comes out, goes down through a rubber hose the the first FMIC, across to second under the bumper, into second and back out on a 50mm rubber hose.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  9. #8
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    LOL HTC what have you done to your air feed? all duck tapped. I guess you got pissed off with it coming off.
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  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    The best option for an A3 is DEFINATELY the eBay VWVortex front mount intercooler. Small core is you want to hide it and large core if you dont care.

    Mine was under 300 including import and duty.
    Got any links to these Dave, I'm thinking about a FMIC and will not be getting the Forge one as I won't be modding my crash bar... does it have one exit at each end or are they both at the same end as per easy fitment for Golf / A3?

  11. #10
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    www.vwvortex.com

    and then search for ebay fmic.

    plus i've posted graphs and such on here before
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

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    abdus's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was asking for an A3.

    Thanks for all the info guys :D

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    Forge S3 comes with modified crash bar in the kit

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    The biggest concern with the A3/S3 and Mk4 intercooler is the pancake pipe which severely restricts airflow.
    Arnold from pagparts in the states did a flow test with the standard pancake vs a full diameter pipe and found no difference. I haven't measured the cross sectional area of the flat part, but I imagine its the same as the round part. The guy I bought the SMIC off made 320bhp with a gt28rs, and I'm heading for 300, so should be okay for my application. Stealth was a big factor also. Air temp logs have been fine so far for a chipped k03s. If that changes, then I'll swap it out.

    LOL HTC what have you done to your air feed? all duck tapped. I guess you got pissed off with it coming off.
    I first fitted the IC without the scoop and so much air flowed round the side. Obviously the standard scoop wouldn't fit so I decided to add a homebrew item to force more air through the IC. Works well. Boost machine have now decided to sell a modified scoop now, but I like mine :-)
    Its made from part of the standard scoop + aluminium mesh + duct tape + exopy. I ran out of black tape. Looks pants but no body sees it as its under the bumber.

  15. #14
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Not quite sure I agree with your policework there Lou....If the pancake pipe isnt restrictive, how come my FMIC does this:



    Ambient temp was 18 degrees on a K03s running at 240Bhp approx.

    When the actual IC part of it is this simple (i.e not as many fins as boost factory)

    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  16. #15
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    Similarly my k03 sport agu uses stock side mount and makes 241hp. I too have heard the pancake pipe makes no discernable difference to flow.

    Not sure what your log is showing Dave, but maybe your ebay cooler is not as good as reports.....? Just because the fins look like that on the inlet, does not mean there is no restriction or damaged fins elsewhere.

    BUt remeber also, most FMIC do actually reduce peak flow and cause a pressure drop accross them. But extra cooling more than compensates.

  17. #16
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Your Ko3s makes 241Bhp for about 10 seconds.

    Then it makes 230Bhp, then 200Bhp, and within ten minutes on a track, it'll be 180Bhp.

    Whereas with a decent intercooler it will sustain the peak figures for far longer.

    Look at the Forge FMIC:



    The Forge FMIC reaches 60 degrees in testing!!! Mine has NEVER been that high.

    The eBay FMIC is as good as reports, as that log shows inlet temperature, so compare to the forge one above....mine was logged after numerous testing runs on a 18 degree day, with boost reaching 18-19psi.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  18. #17
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Pressure drop is 1.5-2psi on the eBay FMIC, numerous postings and my own testing have confirmed this on VWVortex.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    Your Ko3s makes 241Bhp for about 10 seconds.

    Then it makes 230Bhp, then 200Bhp, and within ten minutes on a track, it'll be 180Bhp.

    Whereas with a decent intercooler it will sustain the peak figures for far longer.

    Look at the Forge FMIC:



    The Forge FMIC reaches 60 degrees in testing!!! Mine has NEVER been that high.

    The eBay FMIC is as good as reports, as that log shows inlet temperature, so compare to the forge one above....mine was logged after numerous testing runs on a 18 degree day, with boost reaching 18-19psi.
    Quick enough for a 57 second lap at Mallory park though still, 2 up, full tank full leather etc....!!

    Tell the new v8 Rs4 I lapped in one session it had 180hp!! ;-)

    The question is over the pancake pipe and whether its restrictive......to make 241hp whether for 10 s or 10 hours, it cannot be that restrictive, which is what most tuners and remappers state too.

    Same as the TIPs airboxes, induction kits yada yada, these are not the restriction on a K03 car.......just look at the mani and you see the restriction! The intake and intercooling side is not the problem until you are flowing some serious air indeed. Front mounts help IATs, but generally lose pressure and flow through them. Well my pro alloy one on the s3 does anyway.

  20. #19
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    my old car was the test mule for the forge kit and it was awesome,although the core might have been slightly larger i'm not sure.Tested side by side with the pro-alloy it matched it ,if not was even better.
    Beware the Standard Yellow Banana!!

  21. #20
    HTC
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    Dave, I like the use of VAG-Scope to log.

    I'll go for mad one in my car and see how my logs compare............having said that, I don't think I'll log today as it damn cold out!

  22. #21
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Yeah, I used VAG-Scope as thats logging the temperature the ECU thinks the air is, regardless of how accurate that measurement is, thats what the ECU uses to determine how efficient the detonation will be, along with other factors, thats the temperature used for fuelling/timing etc.

    Given that the stock IC reaches near 70 degrees, the forge one near 50, and mine near 30, thats a big difference in detonation timing and exhaust temps for the car.

    If the pancake pipe doesnt restrict flow, I cant see what else would make the forge flow so badly, as I honestly can't see my IC being even a tenth as well made as a Forge item, and yet mine is 20 degree colder on an extended run! (and mines runs WAY more air than normal)
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  23. #22
    HTC
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    If/when the weather warms up, I'm going to run some logs via VAG-Scope.
    I'll run some with the pancake pipe, and I'll make a round pipe and run some that.

    I have a few logs from when I was diagnosing a few issues with my car a while back. Not a great comparison as I wasn't really running it for AIT reasons, but I was giving it the beans and it was a fairly warm day.

    The most I saw was 42&#176;. Obviously the colder the better, but I'm happy running that range of AIT for my choice of IC.
    What do you think?

    Ta.

  24. #23
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    im running an evolution motorsports intercooler kit on my stateside a3, fits and works great. (mild trimming to the lower plastic bumper, no trimming to the bumper itself)

    on my old mk4 i was able to run the quarter mile in 12 seconds flat with apr stg3 and this intercooler.

    also as stated previously, the oem pancake pipe is no restriction what so ever, until you put a turbo on that simply needs completely bigger charge piping.

  25. #24
    Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    Maybe it isnt such a big restriction them.

    But then it begs the question, why does the Godspeed Intercooler perform so much better than the Forge item?

    42 degrees is pretty good isnt it, considering the 50 degree forge temps.
    <Insert meaningless geeky specs here>

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Bayern
    Maybe it isnt such a big restriction them.

    But then it begs the question, why does the Godspeed Intercooler perform so much better than the Forge item?

    42 degrees is pretty good isnt it, considering the 50 degree forge temps.
    given all the variables that could be present during the intercooler tests, comparing them could be a risky proposition.

    basically any properly sized bar and plate core, with fairly dense fins will cool well. even well designed tube and fin intercoolers work well.

 

 

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