S3 ENGINE TUNING

[SIMON MATLOCK]

HI EVERY 1. JUST SIGNED ON TO AUDI SPORT I OWN A 210 S3 WHICH THE ENGINE IS STANDARD I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT RUNNING AROUND 300BHP+ WHAT SORT OF MODS WOULD YOU RECOMMEND

 

[ChriS3]

Third time lucky?

Lol, you won't get anywhere near 300bhp unless you change the turbo and spend a fortune. Have a read of Ess_Three's sticky threads at the top of the forum.

And less of the shouting please (caps lock)

 

[Ryanc]

Yep 300 impossible on standard turbo,just remap to 255-260bhp and leave as that....enjoy.

 

[jojo]

Clearly, the best and most cost effective way to get 300BHP+ from an S3 is to sell it and replace it with an Scooby Sti or an Evo of some sort.

 

[Ballcrusher]

275/280 is capable with standaerd turbo im running 279.8 and cost me some bucks just to get it.

 

[Ess_Three]

275/280 is capable with standaerd turbo im running 279.8 and cost me some bucks just to get it.

275-280 must be considered to be the limit for a K04, in my experience.
You have to run the K04 at silly boost pressures to get it, and take liberties with ignition timing too...and you WILL need a FMIC to do it.

I guess you could go for a generic remap and visit a flattering rolling road to get 280+ BHP print outs...there are a few about.
It took mr 3 years to get to 275/280 BHP and 330+ lb-ft...some manage it with WAY less mods, more 'restrictions' in the system and with only a generic re-map.
Oh yeah...that's right, they don't.
But they have a bit of paper that says they do...


Remember that with the K04, boost pressure = torque at the torque peak - nowhere near the power peak.

A K04 simply can't move enough air to pressurise a 1.8T to more than approx 1.3 bar at 6500 RPM and above...so you have to play with ignition advance, and feed the engine very cool air to get top end power gains.

I don't know of many that make 280+ genuine on a K04...I've seen several dyno'd on stand-alone engine management that were claiming 305 BHP...and they made 265 ish...on the same day my S3 made 275+.
So the standard ECU doesn't appear to be the limiting factor.


You have to make a choice...
260 BHP / 270-280 lb-ft on a fairly standard S3, with a re-map.
270 BHP / 300 lb-ft with a few more mods
275-280 BHP / 330(+) lb-ft with lots of work and money spent
Or a big turbo conversion for 320+ BHP, but starting with less torque - 270 ish...
Then up to how far your pockets will reach.


Of course, you can spend a small fortune, equal to the gross national debt of some nations...and end up with a car that makes 350 BHP but doesn't seem to be as fast as you'd hoped (they never are!) and won't corner, or brake.

Hence, you need to spend another couple of £1000s on suspension work and a £1000 on brakes to make the damn thing corner and brake like it should...

You still want 350 BHP?

 

[Ballcrusher]

275-280 must be considered to be the limit for a K04, in my experience.
You have to run the K04 at silly boost pressures to get it, and take liberties with ignition timing too...and you WILL need a FMIC to do it.

I guess you could go for a generic remap and visit a flattering rolling road to get 280+ BHP print outs...there are a few about.
It took mr 3 years to get to 275/280 BHP and 330+ lb-ft...some manage it with WAY less mods, more 'restrictions' in the system and with only a generic re-map.
Oh yeah...that's right, they don't.
But they have a bit of paper that says they do...


Remember that with the K04, boost pressure = torque at the torque peak - nowhere near the power peak.

A K04 simply can't move enough air to pressurise a 1.8T to more than approx 1.3 bar at 6500 RPM and above...so you have to play with ignition advance, and feed the engine very cool air to get top end power gains.

I don't know of many that make 280+ genuine on a K04...I've seen several dyno'd on stand-alone engine management that were claiming 305 BHP...and they made 265 ish...on the same day my S3 made 275+.
So the standard ECU doesn't appear to be the limiting factor.


You have to make a choice...
260 BHP / 270-280 lb-ft on a fairly standard S3, with a re-map.
270 BHP / 300 lb-ft with a few more mods
275-280 BHP / 330(+) lb-ft with lots of work and money spent
Or a big turbo conversion for 320+ BHP, but starting with less torque - 270 ish...
Then up to how far your pockets will reach.


Of course, you can spend a small fortune, equal to the gross national debt of some nations...and end up with a car that makes 350 BHP but doesn't seem to be as fast as you'd hoped (they never are!) and won't corner, or brake.

Hence, you need to spend another couple of £1000s on suspension work and a £1000 on brakes to make the damn thing corner and brake like it should...

You still want 350 BHP?

so negative every time its a shame you couldnt get the power figures at star as other tunners get well dont hate just be happy

 

[Ess_Three]

so negative every time its a shame you couldnt get the power figures at star as other tunners get well dont hate just be happy

What the f**k are you on about?
The ******** you speak is bad enough....but written like a 5 year old, it makes the job ever harder.

Did I mention you?
Do you have such a sad existance that you think everyone is talking about you?
Do you hear voices?

You really need to get out more...



The points raised were valid.
It really grips my **** when so-called reputable 'tuners' take people's hard earned money and rip them off by providing them with over inflated figures that massage the ego, rather than the power gains promised.
Being blunt about it...it's fraud.



As for the power figures my S3 made, it was right up there with what I'd expect for a K04 running outwith it's efficiency curve...maxxed out.
Power and torque align with the accepted max for the K04.
So I was happy...still am.
I know what's required to make an S3 turn out 275 BHP/330 lb-ft all day long, on any dyno, on any day...



Why do you get so uppety about people discussing figures?
Oh yeah....that's right...because yours are higher than everyone elses for the same work done! We've already had that conversation, haven't we?
Yours appears to be right up there with what's expected from a highly strung K04...so what's your point?

I couldn't give a toss what figures S3s make as long as they seem genuine...

But I would like to warn those of a more sceptical nature (another realist, like me) that where some 'tuners' are concerned...all is not what it seems.
Dynos lie...anyone with a hole in their **** and dyno exposure knows how to do it...it's such a shame that some get away with it, and continue to rip others off.

But if you want to get into a conversation about limits of the K04 turbo on an S3, I'm more than happy to break out my Ballcrusher > English Babelfish convertor and give it a go.

 

[Ballcrusher]

****** no thats what comes out of your mouth every time when you see some thing you dont like. so what if some tuners can get more than other as long as the customer is happy and the customer feels like hes got his moneys worth and by having proven power.but as you know more than everybody els why dont you open a tuning company and with the ****** you no you will earn millions.............................NOT

and the way i type is nothing to do with you no one els as a problem but being a childish ****** as you are just goes to show how shallow you ARE

 

[marms]

Don't want to get involved in an argument here but....

Ballcrusher, you really could use some more punctuation in your posts as they are often difficult to read.

 

[Ballcrusher]

Don't want to get involved in an argument here but....

Ballcrusher, you really could use some more punctuation in your posts as they are often difficult to read.

FAIR POINT but how i type is how i type..?

 

[marms]

Yes fair enough.

The point I was trying to make is that a message can be read in so many different ways, dependent upon how it is worded, the punctuation used and the use of proper English and not 'text talk'.

For example, how would you speak these words:

I'm sorry I still like you

Notice the difference punctuation makes:

I'm sorry. I still like you. (I'm sorry, but I still like you)

I'm sorry I still like you ! (I'm sorry that I still like you)

As I said, I'm not having a go or anything, just that your point may come across better if the reply was clearer.

 

[ChriS3]

Ballcrusher, you should take heed of what Ess_Three says as you're not making yourself out to be the brightest.

Its VERY easy to adjust the environmental settings on a rolling road and make it show a few more bhp. Maybe a click of the handbrake to increase transmission losses and distort flywheel calculations? These are the reasons I take my car to Star. I trust the operators and the dyno. No ambitiuous claims, and yet my mapped S3, with only 247bhp was quicker down the strip than those with AMD/CC/Jabba/etc maps. Go figure.

People, like yourself, will easily be fooled and conned by tuners claiming to get more bhp from the same engine set-up. You're claiming nearly 280? How my dynos have you proven that on?

 

[Ballcrusher]

ive been to a few rolling roads and the figures are with in a few bhp of each other and the same with torque so are all these rollers out.and as for 1/4 times if your a bad starter or **** up a gear change then dont matter how fast your car is you aint going to get a quick time.

by the way what was your FASTEST time and with what mods...?

 

[Ballcrusher]

Yes fair enough.

The point I was trying to make is that a message can be read in so many different ways, dependent upon how it is worded, the punctuation used and the use of proper English and not 'text talk'.

For example, how would you speak these words:

I'm sorry I still like you

Notice the difference punctuation makes:

I'm sorry. I still like you. (I'm sorry, but I still like you)

I'm sorry I still like you ! (I'm sorry that I still like you)

As I said, I'm not having a go or anything, just that your point may come across better if the reply was clearer.

i no what your saying thanx for the lesson i will take it on board but i wasnt the best speller in school or writer but ill try.........lol

 

[jojo]

275-280 must be considered to be the limit for a K04, in my experience.
You have to run the K04 at silly boost pressures to get it, and take liberties with ignition timing too...and you WILL need a FMIC to do it.

I guess you could go for a generic remap and visit a flattering rolling road to get 280+ BHP print outs...there are a few about.
It took mr 3 years to get to 275/280 BHP and 330+ lb-ft...some manage it with WAY less mods, more 'restrictions' in the system and with only a generic re-map.
Oh yeah...that's right, they don't.
But they have a bit of paper that says they do...


Remember that with the K04, boost pressure = torque at the torque peak - nowhere near the power peak.

A K04 simply can't move enough air to pressurise a 1.8T to more than approx 1.3 bar at 6500 RPM and above...so you have to play with ignition advance, and feed the engine very cool air to get top end power gains.

I don't know of many that make 280+ genuine on a K04...I've seen several dyno'd on stand-alone engine management that were claiming 305 BHP...and they made 265 ish...on the same day my S3 made 275+.
So the standard ECU doesn't appear to be the limiting factor.


You have to make a choice...
260 BHP / 270-280 lb-ft on a fairly standard S3, with a re-map.
270 BHP / 300 lb-ft with a few more mods
275-280 BHP / 330(+) lb-ft with lots of work and money spent
Or a big turbo conversion for 320+ BHP, but starting with less torque - 270 ish...
Then up to how far your pockets will reach.


Of course, you can spend a small fortune, equal to the gross national debt of some nations...and end up with a car that makes 350 BHP but doesn't seem to be as fast as you'd hoped (they never are!) and won't corner, or brake.

Hence, you need to spend another couple of £1000s on suspension work and a £1000 on brakes to make the damn thing corner and brake like it should...

You still want 350 BHP?

Back to the original questions boys and girls. I found this to be an honest and balanced opinion on the S3, he hasn't actually said the S3 was rubbish, just pointing the fact that it needs a lot of money to get what we would like out of it.

 

[Ess_Three]

Back to the original questions boys and girls. I found this to be an honest and balanced opinion on the S3, he hasn't actually said the S3 was rubbish, just pointing the fact that it needs a lot of money to get what we would like out of it.

Thankfully, there are still people who can read.
I too thought the points raised were fair and honest.

For the record...I loved my S3. It was brilliant by the time I sold it...brilliant, but boring.
I've never said anything different.

 

[Ess_Three]

FAIR POINT but how i type is how i type..?

Like a 5 year old.
If you are happy with it...good on ya.

 

[Ess_Three]

****** no thats what comes out of your mouth every time when you see some thing you dont like.

Engaging my Babelfish translator, I think you are saying I speak ******** everytime I see something I don't like...Hmm...
I don't think so.
But I do get rather upset when people get ripped off by so-called reputable tuners - I've been there, I didn't like it.
I don't see what's so bad about opening the eyes of those who may be caught out. Do you?

so what if some tuners can get more than other as long as the customer is happy and the customer feels like hes got his moneys worth and by having proven power.

You must be a 'tuners' dream.
An engine is a mechanical piecs of equipment...there is only a finite amount of power and torque that can be made for a given amount of fuel (injector size, octane rating etc) and a given amount of air (boost).
You can't change that...it's physics.
You understand physics don't you?

There is no white-man's magic here...it's just suck, squeeze, bang, blow...
That's all.
No tricks, no magic ingredients...just basic physics.

so when one tuner suggests that a standard S3 with a re-map can make 285 BHP and 330+ lb-ft of torque...I say ********! Not without more work.

You say that the customer is happy because he's got all the power he's been told he had...I say no, he's been sold short.
I just don't understand why anyone would be happy with a false dyno plot.

My car makes 5647 BHP with just a K&N filter and an exhaust...so I'm told.
Am I happy...no because it's all *****.

Hey, if you are happy with people living in fantasy land...that's fine by me.
But I'd rather the honest information be out there for the wise to pick up on...and make their own choices.

but as you know more than everybody els why dont you open a tuning company and with the ****** you no you will earn millions.............................NOT

I don't know more than everybody else...but I evidently know a hell of a lot more than you.

I have no intention of opening a tuning company, because I build things properly - which takes too long, and doesn't give the gains some people are led to expect - so I'd never make any money.
I'll stick to spending my own hard earned money tuning my own cars and proving what's possible, and what's not.
If people like to read what I find...great.
If people take heed, and save themselves some cash...great.
If they don't...I'll not get bent out of shape over it.

That's the difference between an Engineer and a businessman/weekend tuner.

and the way i type is nothing to do with you no one els as a problem but being a childish ****** as you are just goes to show how shallow you ARE

Thanks for that...

But how you type makes things difficult for the other menbers to read too...so if it's not too much trouble, please make an effort.

 

[Pat]

Well heres what i`ve done as I`m not here to get into arguements..

Mines a 2001 S3 AMK, APR stage 2 remap, changed the downpipe and hi flow cat with Milltek CAT back system, AMD DV and Panel filter.. Changed The Shocks to Billies and eibachs.. Brembos will be on at the weekend along with anti-roll bars...


I`m not claiming massive power but i`m very happy with the power delivery, how the car handles and stops. Granted it hasn`t been cheap.. BUT i know that i`m at the limit of my turbo..

 

[Ballcrusher]

ESS THREE .....But I do get rather upset when people get ripped off by so-called reputable tuners - I've been there, I didn't like it.
I don't see what's so bad about opening the eyes of those who may be caught out. Do you?

fair point it aint nice when people work hard for there money and get ripped off. but ive been to 3 rolling roads and like i said bhp and tourqe figures are all within a few bhp of each other and the same with the tourqe but if it turned out to be that the power i have is ******** then i would be striaght on to jbs. but i dont think that the other rolling roads ive used can all be wrong could they?

 

[Ess_Three]

fair point it aint nice when people work hard for there money and get ripped off. but ive been to 3 rolling roads and like i said bhp and tourqe figures are all within a few bhp of each other and the same with the tourqe but if it turned out to be that the power i have is ******** then i would be striaght on to jbs. but i dont think that the other rolling roads ive used can all be wrong could they?

Rolling roads are not easily compared...that's the problem.
you have to test known cars (standard cars) then modify to know the gains, in my view.
I've known my cars make 15BHP more on certain rolling roads, compared to my 'standard' dyno.
The 'standard' being the one that gave standard power to the last 4 cars I've tried.

Dyno types also vary...very few do accurate 4 wd readings, including coastdown readings.
Haldex cars are notoriously difficult to run anyway...so some run them in 2wd...which gives an incorrect reading.

To compare apples with apples, you have to know:
The make of dyno?
Corrected to DIN70020 (I think that's the standard)
4WD or 2WD?
Coastdown measured?
Tyre pressures?
Dyno calibrated?
Ambient air temperature?
Tie down strap tightness?
Ensure that other parameters like wheel camber, tyre size, diff type have not been changed between runs.
Fuel used?
Boost measured?
Inlet charge measured?
Injector on time?
EGT?

With all that information, you can gauge how accurate a reading is to a known 'control' dyno...even if the 'control' dyno isn't the most accurate, it's the only way you can compare.

Reasonable measurements of boost will indicate torque
IC size/type, fuel type and re-mapper will give a good indication of power output.

But it's the ATW figures you need, assuming the car was run in 4WD mode...not 2 WD.

The most common way of fudging the figures is on the coastdown losses, as ChriS3 has stated.


So, in answer to your question...all rolling roads you've used could be inaccurate. Nor likely...but it's possible.
Everything is possible...


Youre makes what you'd expect from a highly strung K04...more info on boost pressure at peak torque, the way the car was run, make of dyno etc will give a better understanding of how comparable it is to other S3s.

At the end of the day, the owner of the dyno / tuner will ALWAYS like to see big numbers...as it sells more re-maps!
The truth - sadly for every one of us - is that our cars may not be as powerful as we like to think.

The only true way to know if the car was making the true power as standard is for the manufacturer to dyno the engine at the factory when new.
Some do...
Then you know thast it made xxx.xxBHP when new.
You measure it on your local dyno and it makes yyy.yyBHP.
You modify it and you end up with zzz.zzBHP.
The gain is z-y.
That, sadly, is the only rear given.

The rest is open to too much outside influence and miss-interpretation.

Personally, I prefer to use the dynos the major German tuners / manufacturers use for their accuracy. MAHA. As used by Porsche, AMG etc.

 

[Ballcrusher]

well im going up to jbs in a few weeks.as there having a Jbs Best Of The Best Promotion Day. so im taking a friend who owns a SUN DYNO and hes going to look how they set the dyno up. to see if all well fingers crossed. at the end of the day im well happy with what jbs have done with my car and getting 14.08 with heavy 19s and a buggerd clutch is damm good considering im a crap starter down the strip...lol

Personally, I prefer to use the dynos the major German tuners / manufacturers use for their accuracy. MAHA. As used by Porsche, AMG etc....
I WISHED

 

[grathies]

Wow! I thought this forum was boring but thats one of the most amusing threads this side of PistonHeads!

TBH Id never have tuned my S3 to 350odd BHP personally, but as I own one thats had alot of work done, it does make it fun (Wouldnt be as much fun if Id spent my own money on doing it!)

 

[Ess_Three]

I WISHED

That's whay I use Star Performance's dyno as the datum for my cars.
It's what Porsche use....according to the man at the Factory.

Dastek dynos seem pretty good too...accurate (compared to my 'control' dyno) for power at the wheels, but they fluctuate on losses.

I have a Dyno Dynamics dyno close to home and I can't get two readings on that thing within 10 BHP or the same day...but then again it doesn't measure coastdown losses so to my mind, it's not worth reading too much into the figures.

It's got great load-holding capabilities though, so great for mapping stand-alone management.