brakes locking after fitting brembos. ABS fault?

[daz-20vt]

Hi all. Ive just had brembos fitted to my car along with ds3000 pads. The braking is insane on them!
However i can literally lock the wheels at 90mph.
First i thought that was a testament to the brakes but then i thought shouldnt my abs be stopping this?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Do you feel the ABS kick in?... can't say I have every tried locking the brakes at 90 yet so can't comment lol... my 330mm/DS2500 setup makes your face tingle when you use them hard (pulled 1.1/1.2g iirc according to Liquid Gauge)

Its plausible that ABS has a speed restriction... as I suspect braking hard from 90mph would massively tax the ABS system and make the brakes feel very ineffective...

<tuffty/>

 

[daz-20vt]

To be honest i didnt notice it but im going to head out again tonight to confirm!
I was bedding them in which take a series of hard stops hence the speed.
At one point i looked at my mate and said "thst one made me dizzy"
His lack of response but little nod confirmed he felt it to lol
I wasnt trying to lock them just getting used to the pedal and luckily they are very progressive. Ill check again tonight and confirm but interesting thought on the speed triggering it

 

[daz-20vt]

Thanks!!!

 

[kwistof]

You can bed them in whilst staying under the speed limit dude

Did you give the calliper pins a good clean when you changed the pads mate? Could be sticking when going full on the brakes?

 

[daz-20vt]

Wheres the fun in that???
Joking aside the instructions said to do 25-30 stops at mininmum of 40% pressure for at least 4 seconds so i needed to be going fairly quick to do that or after less than 4 seconds id stop.
From what i read these need hard bedding in.
And all my pins were new and fitted fine not too tight etc.
However when it first happened this crossed my mind.

 

[aragorn]

Why do you have DS3000's on a road car?

 

[daz-20vt]

I havent. I have ds3000 on a track car

 

[aragorn]

Hmm.

DS3000's are not approved for road use (thus are illegal). Your using them on the road. The fact you've attached "track car" label to the bootlid and take the back seats out doesnt alter that.

Anyway, does the ABS actually work at all? Have you scanned the ABS unit for fault codes and does the warning light do what it should? It should operate just fine at 90mph, afterall its there to stop you crashing, so would be pretty retarded if it turned off just because you were driving quickly.

Do you have good tyres fitted? You've evidently got more powerful brakes than before, but your stopping is limited by the tyres grip on the road surface. Fitting 380mm 12 pots wont stop you any quicker if the tyres are ****, and your new more powerful brakes are likely to show up **** tyres more than knackered OE brakes.

Have you correctly ensured the brake bias has been unaltered by upgrading the brakes in a uniform manner front and rear?

 

[daz-20vt]

My car literally is used to go to and from track although i know what you mean about them not being legal.
They seem fine from cold so no idea what the problem is?
I was toyin with having to sets of pads one road and one track but wasnt sure if this was wise?
As for abs i will check again later bit i didnt notice it trying to work,
Also rears are good condtion oem spec brakes. Didnt think many upgraded the rear?
Tyres are toyo t1r sport all woth under 1k on them.
Tyre pressures are something im going to also check!
You have a track car dont you aragon?
Whats your brake situation?
Cheers! Daz

 

[Prawn]

Quit being miserable Kev

Darren is building the car for track use, Ds3000's are NEEDED for anything that's to be primarily tracked. They also happen to work fantastically from cold and have more initial bite than a stock pad right from the first press.

Daz has fitted OE brembo 4 pots from an LCR, which has the same master cylinder and 256mm rears as his S3, and are a perfect hydraulic match.

He's probably just being a ham fisted goon and pressing the pedal too hard

Daz- you should be able to make your ABS activate at 90mph if trying hard enough, but not get a wheel locked and stay locked. the ABS should trigger and you'll feel it through the pedal.

The easiest and safest way to test your ABS is on a low friction surface, either a wet road, jabbing the brakes on at LOW speed, or on grass or similar. You'll know straight away if it's working.

Also, ABS should be a 'failsafe' system, so if the lights not on, it thinks it's working. As soon as it detects a fault, it shuts the whole system down for safety reasons and throws the light.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Ferrodo DS2500 'and EU Reg 90 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

<tuffty/>

 

[aragorn]

My brakes are stock, DS2500's up front, stock rears. Its not been on track yet though, and i suspect they'll need upgraded eventually. For me, i want the lightest brakes that will do the job. I could go fit some massive things from an RS4 or whatever, but thats IMO completely OTT and the extra weight just works against what your trying to achieve as its all unsprung and rotating mass.

That said, i've tracked my road car, also on stock brakes with stock pads, and on stock power it was completely fine. Sure after maybe 10 hard laps they'd be starting to go off a bit and you'd want to cool them off, but given i wasnt wanting to trash the hell out my road car it worked well enough. Evidently once the power starts going up (and ability/confidence too i guess) then the brakes get a harder time of it. The track cars lighter, and has the same brakes as the road car with DS2500 pads, so i'm hopeful it'll be ok to get me started.

The other issue is it depends on the track itself. Knockhill is a fairly tight circuit and is quite short. Some much faster more open tracks you'll be braking from higher speeds etc, which will tax the brakes more.

As for bias, i dont know what your car is, but the LCR ran those brembos with the 256 rears. IF you've got 256 rears then the bias should be acceptable. If your still on the stock 236mm rears however, then you'll have moved the bias forwards, which isnt ideal, as essentially the rear wheels end up doing less than they could, and the overall braking torque to the road surface falls.

I'm not a fan of Toyo's, bar maybe the R888. Clearly they're not ditchfinders, but they're no Eagle F1 either.

 

[jamiebennett81]

I can just see an officer pulling you over and impounding the car due to running DS3000's lol

 

[aragorn]

Ferrodo DS2500 'and EU Reg 90 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

<tuffty/>

What bill says may be the logical case, but i can assure you, that if you kill someone in your car, the fact you have illegal "race" brake pads wont go unnoticed, and the CPS *WILL* find an expert witness who will stand up and testify that race brake pads are not suitable for road use because they dont work properly from cold etc etc.

You will also find there will be NO chance of getting someone from Ferodo up there to testify that their DS2500 outperforms the R90 regs in all situations and thus couldnt possibly have been to blame as the reason its non-compliant is becuase its a far superior product.

It also defys physics to suggest that the pad can both operate just fine at high race temperatures, and still provide a road-pad-beating coefficient of friction when stone cold. These things are impossible to achieve, which is why race pads are race pads and road pads are road pads.

If you could make a pad that worked perfectly at road temperatures but didnt fade when they got up to track temperatures, dont you think they'd be using that anyway on all the road cars in existence to completely eliminate brake fade and enable them to use smaller lighter braking components on todays fat heavy cars?!.

 

[aragorn]

I can just see an officer pulling you over and impounding the car due to running DS3000's lol

Ofcourse they wont. But its just like the folk that fit dodgy/illegal stuff then say "it passed an MOT so it must be fine". The fact a copper might not notice, or it passes an MOT, or even appears to work properly, doesnt change the fact that its an illegal component.

 

[jamiebennett81]

What bill says may be the logical case, but i can assure you, that if you kill someone in your car, the fact you have illegal "race" brake pads wont go unnoticed, and the CPS *WILL* find an expert witness who will stand up and testify that race brake pads are not suitable for road use because they dont work properly from cold etc etc.

You will also find there will be NO chance of getting someone from Ferodo up there to testify that their DS2500 outperforms the R90 regs in all situations and thus couldnt possibly have been to blame as the reason its non-compliant is becuase its a far superior product.

It also defys physics to suggest that the pad can both operate just fine at high race temperatures, and still provide a road-pad-beating coefficient of friction when stone cold. These things are impossible to achieve, which is why race pads are race pads and road pads are road pads.

If you could make a pad that worked perfectly at road temperatures but didnt fade when they got up to track temperatures, dont you think they'd be using that anyway on all the road cars in existence to completely eliminate brake fade and enable them to use smaller lighter braking components on todays fat heavy cars?!.

and what's your point?

I am sure he is a big boy who can make his own decisions (wrong or right) and IF there are consequences of a bad decision, then so be it.

 

[Tooks]

I can just see an officer pulling you over and impounding the car due to running DS3000's lol

Of course, they won't.

But, it becomes an issue if your car is involved in a serious injury or road death accident at which point the car will be impounded, inspected and the results used in court against you.

But anyway, people's choices and all that, but it sounds to me like the ABS isn't working correctly on the car.

My old S3 on Brembo's had functioning ABS at all speeds, as it should.

 

[aragorn]

I think my points quite clear. They're illegal. If you accept that and run the risk, fine. Dont try to bull**** your way into convincing people they're not illegal because they're better than stock. Anyone braking the law is free to make that choice themselves, but they need to be making it armed with all the facts.

The legalities have been covered so lets keep this focussed on fixing daz's brakes.

 

[jamiebennett81]

The legalities have been covered so lets keep this focussed on fixing daz's brakes.

yes lets do that.

 

[badger5]

Hmm.

DS3000's are not approved for road use (thus are illegal). Your using them on the road. The fact you've attached "track car" label to the bootlid and take the back seats out doesnt alter that.

Seriously? Aragorn?

 

[badger5]

What bill says may be the logical case, but i can assure you, that if you kill someone in your car, the fact you have illegal "race" brake pads wont go unnoticed, and the CPS *WILL* find an expert witness who will stand up and testify that race brake pads are not suitable for road use because they dont work properly from cold etc etc.

You will also find there will be NO chance of getting someone from Ferodo up there to testify that their DS2500 outperforms the R90 regs in all situations and thus couldnt possibly have been to blame as the reason its non-compliant is becuase its a far superior product.

It also defys physics to suggest that the pad can both operate just fine at high race temperatures, and still provide a road-pad-beating coefficient of friction when stone cold. These things are impossible to achieve, which is why race pads are race pads and road pads are road pads.

If you could make a pad that worked perfectly at road temperatures but didnt fade when they got up to track temperatures, dont you think they'd be using that anyway on all the road cars in existence to completely eliminate brake fade and enable them to use smaller lighter braking components on todays fat heavy cars?!.

Basic coefficient of friction vs temps will confirm the pads EXCEED oe in every respect hence not meeting the 10% of oe reg90 claptrap..They exceed oe, on what is a poorly worded reg.

Stop playing devils advocate and making yourself look like an ****

You run non reg90 pads yourself by your own admission ***

 

[jamiebennett81]

Hi all. Ive just had brembos fitted to my car along with ds3000 pads. The braking is insane on them!
However i can literally lock the wheels at 90mph.
First i thought that was a testament to the brakes but then i thought shouldnt my abs be stopping this?

going on the original point, is there an actual fault here?

what you haven't explained is how you locked the brakes up, by extreme braking (understandable the ABS to kick in), or just from tapping the brakes (which shouldn't bring ABS into question). The latter of the two is then a fault.

 

[aragorn]

You run non reg90 pads yourself by your own admission ***

My track cars not road legal, as it has no cat, no airbags etc etc.

It will not be going on the road.

My road car uses Ferodo Premiers, which are a road pad.

I agree with you that under many situations, DS2500's will probably outperform a standard road pad, however i suspect if you actually find the charts, you'll discover at low temps the 2500 and 3000 are significantly worse than say the Ferodo Premier road pad.

The charts on the ferodo website for their race pads dont drop below 150c so arent much use to tell you what happens when the disks at 10c! They dont seem to publish any charts for their road pads which is a shame.

The published average friction value for their R90 approved DS Performance pads is higher (0.46) than the published value for the DS2500 (0.42). This suggests to me that the DS2500 ISNT higher everywhere than an R90 pad, because if it were, it wouldnt have a lower average than one.

If you have the data from 0c to 150c i'd be interested to see it, and would happily be corrected if it shows that the pads perform similarly at the sort of temps the average road car will see driving down the motorway to work.

 

[badger5]

I dont have the time to argue the toss with a pedant like you araYawn

Actual pedal feel, and bite confirms DS3000's have no lesser bite than a stock pad, but unlike a stock pad which once ****** will loose its bite significantly, the ds3000s will continue to work across their range

Yep sold as race pads as are ds2500's because of the poorly worded reg90, which was created imho to stop the cheap brand/fake pads from being sold as oe replacements where their performances were >10% worse.

 

[jojo]

Do you feel the ABS kick in?... can't say I have every tried locking the brakes at 90 yet so can't comment lol... my 330mm/DS2500 setup makes your face tingle when you use them hard (pulled 1.1/1.2g iirc according to Liquid Gauge)

Its plausible that ABS has a speed restriction... as I suspect braking hard from 90mph would massively tax the ABS system and make the brakes feel very ineffective...

<tuffty/>

Yup, I have the same pads and discs up front, mated to Brembo GT calipers and ECS stage1 rears, so mine should stop better than yours. I've never locked mine up during the bedding in process, and after the 4th heaving braking session in a row, I did feel a bit sick! Lol

 

[Alex C]

I dont have the time to argue the toss with a pedant like you araYawn

Actual pedal feel, and bite confirms DS3000's have no lesser bite than a stock pad, but unlike a stock pad which once ****** will loose its bite significantly, the ds3000s will continue to work across their range

Yep sold as race pads as are ds2500's because of the poorly worded reg90, which was created imho to stop the cheap brand/fake pads from being sold as oe replacements where their performances were >10% worse.

my replacement ds2500s turned up on Friday, thanks Bill

 

[daz-20vt]

Hi guys. Wow what have i started!!!
All im saying is that i hit the brakes fairly hard and had lock up. Not intentional and mostly due to never using these 4 pots before so the pedal is much more sensative.
However fact remains that at some speed i was able to lock up and i didnt notice any abs sensation in the pedal.

On a side note only for information not being smug or proving points,
These pads bite!!!!!!
Extremely hard but plenty of feel, i found them fine when cold. As good as any oem pad ive ever had but with any temp in them theg are superb. Nothing else ive used cones close.
They were recommended by prawn who is basically the ASN stig! Lol
He entirely nailed it!

 

[AlexGSi2000]

The Ferodo DS range is great.

Not sure if its the same on the 8L but when I fitted bigger brakes on my B6 A4 I used VCDS to change the coding for bigger brakes (think it was on the ABS Brakes module if I remember correctly)

Didn't really do much comparison between the different options on VCDS, but ABS seemed alot more reluctant to kick in once I had changed the code.

I ran DS2500's and Bills elliptical discs on my MK3 Ibiza Cupra, the ABS was always over-sensitive and almost screwed me over on a few occasions - because of this I pulled the ABS fuse and threshold braked when I needed too - much better.

 

[kwistof]

Do you mind saying how much the DS3000 pads were on your set up daz?

 

[badger5]

Hi guys. Wow what have i started!!!
All im saying is that i hit the brakes fairly hard and had lock up. Not intentional and mostly due to never using these 4 pots before so the pedal is much more sensative.
However fact remains that at some speed i was able to lock up and i didnt notice any abs sensation in the pedal.

On a side note only for information not being smug or proving points,
These pads bite!!!!!!
Extremely hard but plenty of feel, i found them fine when cold. As good as any oem pad ive ever had but with any temp in them theg are superb. Nothing else ive used cones close.
They were recommended by prawn who is basically the ASN stig! Lol
He entirely nailed it!

I think prawnys suggestion is the best to confirm whilst low speed on some loose ground/grass, that the abs will come in and function properly.. Thats where I would start if the locking was bothering me

 

[daz-20vt]

I think prawnys suggestion is the best to confirm whilst low speed on some loose ground/grass, that the abs will come in and function properly.. Thats where I would start if the locking was bothering me

Ok no worries. I have definately had abs activate before on slippery surfaces but i will check again now as safe as i can to see if anything has changed.
Thanks a lot guys loads of help!!!

 

[daz-20vt]

Do you mind saying how much the DS3000 pads were on your set up daz?

Why do i feel this is due to a pad price comparison convo we had recently lol
Im not telling!!!



I'll pm you!

 

[rhinopower]

Been out on mine now i've sorted the leak, same thing on very harsh braking, I'm running paged discs and pads.