s3 track car arb set up

[daz-20vt]

Hi all. Im after some help with my s3 track car body roll.
I want to limit this as much as posible, im using fk coilovers at the moment and a rear r32 arb.
However the body roll is still there.
So what arb set up can i do to promote nuetral feel yet a flatter handling car? Must be a better option somewhere? Thanks all. Daz

 

[<tuffty/>]

All in the FAQs dude.. Ess Three did a load of testing and the general consensus is 22mm front and 19mm rear... just using a 19mm rear on the std S3 front ARB can make the car unstable at speed and very over steery in the corners as you have swung the factory understeer to more oversteer just by doing that..

JoJo had stability issues on his IIRC and has since fitted a 21mm front ARB

<tuffty/>

 

[daz-20vt]

Hiya mate. Yeh ive read and read the sticky on arb's but since tuat was done there are a few other options. Eibach do an interesting option.
Also i heard the nuespeed setup is no longer available.
I was toying with 23mm r32 front and increasing my rear with another option (although not found a single rear to suit just yet)
Good idea?
Thanks tuffty !!

 

[Prawn]

I think if i were trying it on an s3 Daz I'd be looking to go something like 23 front and 22 rear.

the issues Tuffty describes of people feeling unstable with proportionally larger ARB's does exist, but it's down to poor damping and springs rather than wrong arbs. it's simple a case that the springs on cheap coils are fairly stiff, and they're usually under damped so the damper cannot control it properly.

if you're happy with the current balance at stock front and R32 rear then i see no harm in going proportionally bigger again at both ends.

You don't want to overdo it though, reducing body roll isn't always the answer. You need some or you'll just skid across the surface sidesways.

 

[daz-20vt]

Your thoughts are exactly along where mine were. I understand its all got to be done proportionately as tuffty says. But im a little concerned of mixing brands. If i buy a h&r 21mm bar made of lead and an eibach 21mm bar made of steel they will perform totally differently but this never seems to be taken into account. Or am i over thinking things as normal?
(I realise they wouldnt use lead purely for explainong my point)
Thanks again guys

 

[jojo]

Some body roll is good, reducing it isn't the answer to better handling, you just 'feel' it's going quicker, but in actual fact you are not. 19mm rear ARB on it's own is not as safe as everyone thinks as a upgrade. I nearly binned my car on my first test drive with just the rear, and the back end out vid was my first track outing with 'just' the rear ARB fitted.

The recommendation is 22mm front, but R32 OEM is 23mm. I have since found a 21mm OEM R32 front ARB and fitted it, it seems good so far, especially for road driving, not tried it on track yet.

 

[jojo]

Also have a play with tyre pressures. You'll be amazed how much extra grip a couple of psi can make at the front if you don't have it on optimal. On 19" rims, 33psi was understeer, 32psi was grippy!

 

[16Klappe]

I have H&R R32 roll bars on mine, and the ride and body roll is fantastic. I will find the sizes for you.

It's firm, but allows a good predictable weight transfer. Without feeling too hard, or soft. It just feels about right. With a boot full of grip then a sharp lift off you can invoke some oversteer, and there is very little under steer but enough to stop you dieing if you run out of talent.

Prawn has been very impressed every time he has been in it, and I haven't come out worse off yet and I drive it like a lunatic.

 

[JimS3]

Some body roll is good, reducing it isn't the answer to better handling, you just 'feel' it's going quicker, but in actual fact you are not. 19mm rear ARB on it's own is not as safe as everyone thinks as a upgrade. I nearly binned my car on my first test drive with just the rear, and the back end out vid was my first track outing with 'just' the rear ARB fitted.

The recommendation is 22mm front, but R32 OEM is 23mm. I have since found a 21mm OEM R32 front ARB and fitted it, it seems good so far, especially for road driving, not tried it on track yet.

2nd that, I tried the R32 rear arb with a standard front. Along with the small bush front wishbones the back tried to overtake the front at every opportunity

Changed to 4motion rear arb and the car no longer tries to kill me round the twisties.

 

[daz-20vt]

I know what you guys are saying. Im not after it being flat but it snt good imo. When i did bedford in june and was cornering hard, honest to god i slowed down a bit because i was worried i was going to scrape my wing mirrors on the floor!!
The rear r32 gets a great review but i only thought it was ok. Must be a better option!?

Whats the ss r32 options bud?
Thanks!!!

 

[JimS3]

This info may be of use to someone:

Genuine VAG Roll bars that fit the S3:

Front:
19mm: 1J0 411 305 AD
20mm: 1J0 411 305 AE
21mm: 8N0 411 305 D
23mm: 1J0 411 305 AF

Rear
13mm: 1J9 511 409 D
14mm: 1J0 511 409 G
15mm: 1J0 511 409 H
16mm: 1J0 511 409 J
19mm: 1J0 511 409 K

 

[daz-20vt]

Great info jim!!
Right whiteline do a 22mm rear bar!!
Do i try it with an r32 23mm front
Or go for the whiteline 24mm front?
Whiteline describe there bars as heavy duty, sales bs or are they made of granite?
Also says the are adjustable. No idea how?

 

[JimS3]

Great info jim!!
Right whiteline do a 22mm rear bar!!
Do i try it with an r32 23mm front
Or go for the whiteline 24mm front?
Whiteline describe there bars as heavy duty, sales bs or are they made of granite?
Also says the are adjustable. No idea how?

Got a white line adjustable bar on my golf, there are 4 holes on each of the flat ends where the drop links bolt on, so 4 'settings'.

quite a big difference from setting 1 to 4. Nice setup as you can tweak the rear to give the balance you are after.

 

[daz-20vt]

So under different tensions then?
Be a safe assumption that the 22mm whiteline on setting 1 would be softer than an oem 23mm bar?
Then potentially harder by setting 4?

 

[Prawn]

Don't go as much as a 24mm front, you're just killing it then. Too stiff and not enough lateral grip.

i only run a 22mm front, and I run that on it's softest setting!

 

[daz-20vt]

Oh i see!! Worried ill end up with a car flatter than yours mr prawn!! Cant be second best !! Lol
sod it im going 23mm front with 22mm rear as you said first nick it was my thoughts coincedentally too. Ill do a write up on how they perform when they are fitted and ive done a track day as long as they dont kill me!! Thanks all!!!

 

[snowy]

Stuff that works on 2WD doesn't work for a 4WD

The 4WD have IRS, makes a massive difference to handling dynamics

Nor can you get lost in comparing size of from different manufacturers

Even between the same manufacture

For example;

H&R used to do two setups for the R32/TT/S3 - they have since merged these setups into one adjustable setup

The old 24.5mm front/19.5mm rear setup is same stiffness as the 'new' 25mm front/21mm rear

Different grades of steel, different elasticity

Personally if you're that worried, why not try a matched setup like the H&R ?

I've the old 24.5/19.5 setup on my car, and its as far as I'm concerned ARBs sorted - next problem

 

[JimS3]

So under different tensions then?
Be a safe assumption that the 22mm whiteline on setting 1 would be softer than an oem 23mm bar?
Then potentially harder by setting 4?

Yes just changes the spring tension by lengthening or shortening the bar.

My whiteline is on a 2wd golf that went from no roll bar to a 22mm adjustable, so I have no 'original bar' to compare it to. Totally different to the S3 set-up anyhow.

I would imagine though that the 22mm rear bar is '22mm' on the firmest setting and softens up on the other settings.
Might be close to the R32 bar on the minimum setting.

 

[Prawn]

Stuff that works on 2WD doesn't work for a 4WD


Personally if you're that worried, why not try a matched setup like the H&R ?

I realise this

With regards to front end stiffness, it's directly comparable as it's the same. Obviously rear end grip is down to the rear end setup, but too stiff up front is too stiff, regardless of what the back is doing.

I think going for a matched setup from someone like H&R is probably the best way to guarantee average results. most H&R setups i've seen take the stock factory sizes and upscale both proportionally, reducing body roll, but not altering the poor factory nature of the car one bit.


You're right in so much that bar thickness arn't really comparable across manufacturers, it's very much a black art and a case of trial and error, and having an adjustable bar to be able to fine tune is always preferable.

Personally, I think going as large as 24mm at the front is too much. Even the cast iron boat anchor vr6 was only specced with a 23mm bar from the factory. making the front so stiff would promote understeer, or require an ultra stiff rear end to redress the balance, which would ultimately lower over all grip.
Trial and error has shown that the way to address the poor standard balance is by proportionally upsizing the rear

 

[aragorn]

As was eluded to above, Big Fat ARB's are quite intriguing as a mod, because they make the car FEEL better to the layman. The car corners flatter and the old chestnut "its on rails" gets wheeled out.

However, Big Fat ARB's arent the correct solution. While the car feels better, the bar reduces the independence of the suspension, and causes undesirable weight transfer which overloads the tyres, reducing grip.

The ARB's should be *just* big enough and fine tuned to tweak the cars balance, They should not be used to fix springs that arent up to the job and are letting the car flop around, and if you've still got too much bodyroll then its likely the spring rates are away to ****.

What you should be doing, if your serious about getting it handling properly, is calculating what your spring rates SHOULD be, and sorting those first, before wasting any money on ARB's. Then, if your dampers arent upto the job, sorting those should be next. Then, once you've got a correctly sprung and damped car, tweak the arbs to fine tune the characteristics.

 

[StaceyS3]

When I was shopping about I really couldn't make my mind up and was worried about spending a lot of money and potentially getting something I didn't like, so I opted for the H&R bars die to being able to adjust them

Had them on there a few years now both on the softer setting and never looked back, the car is very neutral, with little to no under steer and oversteer can if pushed be provoked with planting it mid-exit of a corner, must also add have changed other factors regarding geometry so may be a little irrelevant

For me it the thing that swung me was the chance to change it about if wasn't happy

 

[Alex C]

if your on coilovers have you lowered it much?

Could roll centre adjusters help?

Roll Center/Bumpsteer Correction Kit : USRT, Usually Sideways Rally Team

 

[snowy]

I think going for a matched setup from someone like H&R is probably the best way to guarantee average results. most H&R setups i've seen take the stock factory sizes and up scale both proportionally, reducing body roll, but not altering the poor factory nature of the car one bit.

Admittedly I have SuperPro castor correcting rear wishbones bushes fitted alongside my H&R

This is because I did my research I realised that the understeer issue and the bodyroll issue are two separate, but related issues

I actually fitted the ARB's first (along with KW v3's), and immediately noticed the reduction in understeer the ARBs alone gave

With the castor correcting bushes, understeer is history (superPro SPF3397K - do similar job to modshack DEFCON front inserts)

I was out comparing my car to a mates Evo 9 FQ320, and I noted its overall bodyroll rates and stiffness where very similar to where I've ended up

 

[daz-20vt]

My coilovers arent too low. They are height only adjustable so was considering a bit of a drop!
All i want is less roll without compramising handling,

Could i lower my coilovers too much or will lower be better. I have aprox 20mm from tyre to wheel arch front and back

 

[Prawn]

I actually fitted the ARB's first (along with KW v3's), and immediately noticed the reduction in understeer the ARBs alone gave

With the castor correcting bushes, understeer is history (superPro SPF3397K - do similar job to modshack DEFCON front inserts)

Sounds like a good setup, very similar to mine! V3's and castor correction bushes. I've got the rare 30mm front arms that teh DEFON's replicate too All very worth while.

Could i lower my coilovers too much or will lower be better. I have aprox 20mm from tyre to wheel arch front and back

Don't lower it any more mate. it's about right where it is

 

[daz-20vt]

With my poo coilovers can i adjust spring rate without adjusting hight?