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Thread: Bigger injectors a good idea for stage 2?

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    Bigger injectors a good idea for stage 2?

    As title really..

    Hopefully going to book some time with Niki in November to have the car custom mapped to stage 2.

    So far I have:
    3" TIP
    S2000 filter
    Hi-flow manifold
    Relentless downpipe and sportcat
    Toyosport FMIC

    So are 440cc injectors a good idea?

    I can remember reading from Westy / Welly (I'm sorry I really can't remember which) build thread that the standard injectors gave out at 270 - 280bhp

    I'm thinking of giving the Chinese 440cc injectors a try.

    Any thoughts are appreciated.. Thanks!

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    Very little point unless your gunning for 300 and you won't be doing that without wmi and a reworked turbo ie rebuilt, ported with uprated actuator and theres no point doing all that if your not going to bother with rods...
    No point using Chinese injectors, Niki and Bill both know exactly how well Bosch 440/550's work, they have reliable consistent spray patterns and just work. Chinese are unknown and could very well be ****e.
    Last edited by slowcoach3; 23rd September 2013 at 23:57. Reason: muppetry
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    Thanks! I got a feeling it wasn't going to be worth it, but thought I'd ask anyways.

    I want to make sure it's as good as it could possibly be for Niki to work his magic.

    If I had the mechanic ability and had a spare car I'd do the rods myself, but because I don't £1500 is just too much to throw into the car - plus then I'd be thinking... Head off... Hybrid turbo... And before you know it I'm living in a cardboard box in the town centre with a one string guitar to fund everything.

    Anything else you'd recommend?

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    Lol at russ' edit.

    Yeh it was westy that was seeing close to 100% duty cycle on his injectors at about 280, but with these cars being so old, and fuel pumps tired, fuel pressure will vary a little from car to car. Westy had to fit a brand new pump, and then went on to get custom mapping with 550s.
    If you dont want to be forking out for the sake of it leave them in, if youre running out of fuel, which you shouldnt, then just be prepared to throw a new intank pump in on the day.
    As for chinese injectors, im all for bargains and trying chinese stuff, and dont buy into marketing bs and know full well things are made next to big 'quality' brands, BUT fueling isnt a thing id **** around with, its kinda important lol.
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    P.s. Get wmi, on small turbos, and a stock bottom end it will be worth the trouble, you can run less boost (safer on rods) whilst making the same power as without it. Safer in many ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    Lol at russ' edit.

    Yeh it was westy that was seeing close to 100% duty cycle on his injectors at about 280, but with these cars being so old, and fuel pumps tired, fuel pressure will vary a little from car to car. Westy had to fit a brand new pump, and then went on to get custom mapping with 550s.
    If you dont want to be forking out for the sake of it leave them in, if youre running out of fuel, which you shouldnt, then just be prepared to throw a new intank pump in on the day.
    As for chinese injectors, im all for bargains and trying chinese stuff, and dont buy into marketing bs and know full well things are made next to big 'quality' brands, BUT fueling isnt a thing id **** around with, its kinda important lol.
    I didn't edit? Lol.

    At least not that I can remember anyway haha.

    I was interested to see what results (really hope I get this right cos it makes me sound like a right arrogant **** when I can't remember people's names) Welly got from all the Chinese stuff he brought - as I'm sure he went for the same injectors.

    Yeah buying Chinese stuff is a habit of mine.. I'd really love to go over there just to see how bad the fake markets are! I brought some 'genuine' diesel jeans from there recently.. £40 for two pair posted, couldn't stop laughing at the tag... If they can't spell that right shows how much effort goes into the clothes! ImageUploadedByTapatalk1379980301.153133.jpg

    I have my doubts about the fuelling system already.. I've run out a petrol quiet a few times when the gauge hasn't been low, once with more than 1/4 left.. I can smell fuel when stopped at traffic lights without the windows down, mpg seems to be lower than what people see on here (<19mpg currently) most I had was 26mpg which was 100 miles of motorway driving. Gunna try cleaning the injectors first as I've read that can help.

    WMI seems interesting.. Never crossed my mind as I thought it's for the big turbo guys. Ill begin reading...

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    welly used bosch 550's for the record

    I advise these personally
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    welly used bosch 550's for the record

    I advise these personally
    Even though I'm only using stock K04?

    How much you charge for AEM WMI kit btw Bill? Was doing some reading up last night..

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    Quote Originally Posted by russwuss View Post
    Even though I'm only using stock K04?

    How much you charge for AEM WMI kit btw Bill? Was doing some reading up last night..
    I dont sell AEM currently. They would cost £300-£330 for ref

    If you are trying to push beyond 280bhp level, which is where the std 386cc injectors go 100% IDC, then you need more.... dont worry about their size as such, they get scaled and "just work"... and are superb controlling injectors on low ms opening and linear where we need them on 1.8t

    you have the option of 4bar your existing ones, if you have a pump healthy to support the 4bar + boost pressure, which would get them behaving like 440's (ish)
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    I dont sell AEM currently. They would cost £300-£330 for ref

    If you are trying to push beyond 280bhp level, which is where the std 386cc injectors go 100% IDC, then you need more.... dont worry about their size as such, they get scaled and "just work"... and are superb controlling injectors on low ms opening and linear where we need them on 1.8t

    you have the option of 4bar your existing ones, if you have a pump healthy to support the 4bar + boost pressure, which would get them behaving like 440's (ish)
    Cheers Bill, gives me a rough idea of how much I'll need to spend if I decide to take the WMI route.

    Looking around for some 550cc now.. found this place 52lb/h 550cc Bosch Fuel Injector w/ EV1 Connector | Muscle Motors | Bosch Distributor which seems pretty reasonable price with the adapter.

    Reason being I can smell fuel.. so I suspected a leaking injector? mpg is utter ****e which also leads me down that route as well.

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    what are your fuel trims on 032?
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    Just seen this thread.

    Firstly, my injectors were (according to the VCDS logs) running at around 130% of the capacity which basically means they were wide open on boost and struggling at 3 bar. The car was only running a dyno'd 260bhp on a revo stage 2 map!!!

    The main bits of hardware that tipped the injectors over the edge wet the XS exhaust manifold and the AEB large port head I'd fitted. At this stage I already had a brand spanking new OE fuel pump and my WMI wasn't working correctly.

    I ran a 4 bar FPR to tie me over till the custom map was done on Bosch 550 injectors. As said above there's loads of mapping info for 550s so seems mad to try a Chinese brand.

    Oh and just for the record slowcoach, 300bhp is possible without a hybrid turbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    what are your fuel trims on 032?
    @ idle? I will go and check now.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    Just seen this thread.

    Firstly, my injectors were (according to the VCDS logs) running at around 130% of the capacity which basically means they were wide open on boost and struggling at 3 bar. The car was only running a dyno'd 260bhp on a revo stage 2 map!!!

    The main bits of hardware that tipped the injectors over the edge wet the XS exhaust manifold and the AEB large port head I'd fitted. At this stage I already had a brand spanking new OE fuel pump and my WMI wasn't working correctly.

    I ran a 4 bar FPR to tie me over till the custom map was done on Bosch 550 injectors. As said above there's loads of mapping info for 550s so seems mad to try a Chinese brand.

    Oh and just for the record slowcoach, 300bhp is possible without a hybrid turbo
    thanks for the info Westy.. apologies I couldn't remember which build thread I saw the injectors max out.

    Where did you get the 550cc bosch ones from if you don't mind me asking?

    I saw read your build thread regarding WMI as Karl mentioned it above.. you ran this on stock turbo to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by russwuss View Post
    @ idle? I will go and check now.......
    No point checking on idle bud. I was looking for the spreadsheet that works out the % of injector duty cycle but can't find it.

    You'll need to log fuel trims through the rev range. Best bet is to stick the car in 4th gear and put your foot down from 2k revs all the way to the redline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by russwuss View Post
    thanks for the info Westy.. apologies I couldn't remember which build thread I saw the injectors max out.

    Where did you get the 550cc bosch ones from if you don't mind me asking?

    I saw read your build thread regarding WMI as Karl mentioned it above.. you ran this on stock turbo to?
    Injectors were from Intergrated Engineering in the states (the guys that make rods) but I had to pay import tax. They were the cheapest I found at the time.

    As for WMI, I'be been running it since stage 2 Revo on a stock (off the shelf) K04 turbo. My current spec is still using this same turbo.
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    Bigger injectors a good idea for stage 2?

    I've found the calculator on my laptop. PM me your email address and I'll email it over to you.

    Turns oh my injectors were 106%
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    No point checking on idle bud. I was looking for the spreadsheet that works out the % of injector duty cycle but can't find it.

    You'll need to log fuel trims through the rev range. Best bet is to stick the car in 4th gear and put your foot down from 2k revs all the way to the redline.
    picked this up just as I was leaving the house... got a horrible feeling I've logged the wrong thing.

    Engine --> Measuring Blocks --> 032?

    Only two fields

    Lambda & Lambda

    was 1.3% and -3.1% all the way through the rev range, 2nd Lambda went to -5.5% when I lifted off to change to 5th.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    Injectors were from Intergrated Engineering in the states (the guys that make rods) but I had to pay import tax. They were the cheapest I found at the time.

    As for WMI, I'be been running it since stage 2 Revo on a stock (off the shelf) K04 turbo. My current spec is still using this same turbo.
    ahh, I shall have a look see if they are still the cheapest thanks!

    that's good news.. especially due to the fact that you're 305bhp ;-) don't think I dare take it up that much without having the rods done mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    I've found the calculator on my laptop. PM me your email address and I'll email it over to you.

    Turns oh my injectors were 106%
    PM'd - thank you very much!

    log here.. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9EE...it?usp=sharing but as I say I think I've logged the wrong thing.

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    Op there is a set of 550's for sale on vag parts a Facebook group at the mo, iirc Bill at B5 sells them too. If I'm honest I'm running 550's too, my fuel pump was tired and this made the difference for me.

    Westy dude I didn't mean full on hybrid, for me for example I couldn't justify 800 on a new k04 but getting a BBT rebuilt ported turbo with an uprated actuator was more affordable/sensible for me, same as Phil is running on Ron iirc. Every little helps
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowcoach3 View Post
    Op there is a set of 550's for sale on vag parts a Facebook group at the mo, iirc Bill at B5 sells them too. If I'm honest I'm running 550's too, my fuel pump was tired and this made the difference for me.

    Westy dude I didn't mean full on hybrid, for me for example I couldn't justify 800 on a new k04 but getting a BBT rebuilt ported turbo with an uprated actuator was more affordable/sensible for me, same as Phil is running on Ron iirc. Every little helps
    Thanks! I'm currently following that same post.. I'll see if they come down anymore than £200 first ;-)

    Westy sent the injector calculator to me a few minutes ago, put my data in there and @ 5520 rpm their at 102% load.. up to a whopping 125% @ 6560 rpm....

    link to spreadsheet here... https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9EE...it?usp=sharing

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    Quote Originally Posted by russwuss View Post
    Thanks! I'm currently following that same post.. I'll see if they come down anymore than £200 first ;-)
    Why wait? Just make him an offer of how much you are willing to pay, the worse he can do is say no?


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    Quote Originally Posted by slowcoach3 View Post
    Westy dude I didn't mean full on hybrid, for me for example I couldn't justify 800 on a new k04 but getting a BBT rebuilt ported turbo with an uprated actuator was more affordable/sensible for me, same as Phil is running on Ron iirc. Every little helps
    I know what you mean mate. I sent my K04 off for a normal refurb and got told it was beyond repair. I couldn't afford to go hybrid at the time so just had to bite the bullet and get a stock K04. Phil has had superp results with the mods on his K04 so that's definitely the way to go unless you have to buy a new turbo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Why wait? Just make him an offer of how much you are willing to pay, the worse he can do is say no?
    because I don't think he'll appreciate an offer of half a tub of Nesquik strawberry milkshake powder, £3.76, a receipt for £40 worth of fuel and a losing £10 scratch card - 2 days away from pay day haha... I see someone offered him £140 already though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowcoach3 View Post
    Op there is a set of 550's for sale on vag parts a Facebook group at the mo, iirc Bill at B5 sells them too. If I'm honest I'm running 550's too, my fuel pump was tired and this made the difference for me.

    Westy dude I didn't mean full on hybrid, for me for example I couldn't justify 800 on a new k04 but getting a BBT rebuilt ported turbo with an uprated actuator was more affordable/sensible for me, same as Phil is running on Ron iirc. Every little helps
    i'm also keeping an eye on these after asking a couple of questions about them, just waiting to see if the price drops abit as i'v already spent a **** load on the rebuild and hybrid turbo

    i did find a set of green injectors on ebay 440cc for £115 posted so not sure weather to just go for them.
    4x 440cc Pattern Bosch Green Giant Injectors 0280 155 968 EV1 (Golf Bora Jetta) | eBay

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    Lets be honest they are 300? New. So 200 basically new is a bargain! I sold mine for 175 with no adapters but then ended up buying them back when Dan got my turbo and said it'd be worth getting them back lol On the basis they are rare as hens teeth used saving a ton is pretty damn good especially as they won't loose much if you ever need your cash back.
    I agree Westy hybrid would be nice but like you the cars a toy and real life ( wife/house etc ) is of growing importance!
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowcoach3 View Post
    Lets be honest they are 300? New. So 200 basically new is a bargain! I sold mine for 175 with no adapters but then ended up buying them back when Dan got my turbo and said it'd be worth getting them back lol On the basis they are rare as hens teeth used saving a ton is pretty damn good especially as they won't loose much if you ever need your cash back.
    I agree Westy hybrid would be nice but like you the cars a toy and real life ( wife/house etc ) is of growing importance!
    Yea i can see what your saying but after shelling out as much as i have at the moment i gotta try an get things abit cheaper if i can. There was someone that sold a set of bosch 550cc's on sunday for £145 posted brand new with adaptors, knew i should of just got them :thumbdown:

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    update - I can borrow the ultra sonic cleaner from work tomorrow, so gunna whip the injectors out tonight and give them a spring clean to see if that makes a difference to my IDC.. might also be interesting data to see as part of the ultra sonic clean so I'll add it any data I get to that thread also.

    If it makes no difference and injectors are still out of their comfort zone I shall invest in some new bigger injectors :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by russwuss View Post
    update - I can borrow the ultra sonic cleaner from work tomorrow, so gunna whip the injectors out tonight and give them a spring clean to see if that makes a difference to my IDC.. might also be interesting data to see as part of the ultra sonic clean so I'll add it any data I get to that thread also.

    If it makes no difference and injectors are still out of their comfort zone I shall invest in some new bigger injectors :-)
    No point investing in the bigger injectors if your pump is shot mate. A healthy new pump should bring those IDCs back down.
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    has fuel pressure been checked and confirmed ok or weak?
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    Sorry to hijack post but what bar rating is a standard s3 fuel pump an fpr? Also is it recommened to upgrade fpr for a hybrid conversion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper86 View Post
    Sorry to hijack post but what bar rating is a standard s3 fuel pump an fpr? Also is it recommened to upgrade fpr for a hybrid conversion?
    Standard FPR on an S3 is 3 bar. Using a 4 bar will put strain on the fuel pump as its designed to work alongside 3 bar FPR. We've started to see standard injectors run out of puff on 3 bar at around 280ish BHP. A 4 bar FPR is a short term solution but you really want to get larger injectors that will run safely with a 3 bar FPR. 550cc injectors at 3 bar are good for 350bhp I believe.

    One of the main issues that's cropping up now is tired fuel pumps and this needs to be rectified before getting injectors.

    Another way to go about it is to fit an inline fuel pump to help the stock pump out but this is only really needed for te big turbo builds.
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    Fuel pump is 4 bar, FPR is 3 bar, no upgrade required for hybrid as long as the pump is good..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    Standard FPR on an S3 is 3 bar. Using a 4 bar will put strain on the fuel pump as its designed to work alongside 3 bar FPR. We've started to see standard injectors run out of puff on 3 bar at around 280ish BHP. A 4 bar FPR is a short term solution but you really want to get larger injectors that will run safely with a 3 bar FPR. 550cc injectors at 3 bar are good for 350bhp I believe.

    One of the main issues that's cropping up now is tired fuel pumps and this needs to be rectified before getting injectors.

    Another way to go about it is to fit an inline fuel pump to help the stock pump out but this is only really needed for te big turbo builds.
    Thanks westy, thats the exact answer i was looking for. I'v got a bbt hybrid coming an i also bought 550cc injectors just wasnt sure about the fpr. I'm looking in to fuel pump options now but not sure which way to go with it.

  37. #36
    Westy's Avatar
    Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper86 View Post
    Thanks westy, thats the exact answer i was looking for. I'v got a bbt hybrid coming an i also bought 550cc injectors just wasnt sure about the fpr. I'm looking in to fuel pump options now but not sure which way to go with it.
    Standard in tank pump is fine if healthy. You should be fine with hybrid, 3 bar FPR, and 550s but if the pump is healthy and you still find there's not enough fuel you'll need an inline pump to help out.
    cooper86 likes this.
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  38. #37
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    2nd Gear

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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    has fuel pressure been checked and confirmed ok or weak?
    no, just rubbish IDC on stock injectors.

    Is there anything I can log to confirm this if the fuel pump is weak?

    Just took the injectors out, 3 of the injectors was fairly dry - the other was covered in petrol, loads of crap behind the seal..

  39. #38
    4th Gear

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    Best bet is to get a fuel pressure gauge on it, most garages should have one....
    Badger 5 tuned 340 bhp / 350 lbft sleeper

  40. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    Standard in tank pump is fine if healthy. You should be fine with hybrid, 3 bar FPR, and 550s but if the pump is healthy and you still find there's not enough fuel you'll need an inline pump to help out.
    Right been looking at inline pumps due to me not being able to test if the intank pump is any good before it gets back on the road. Bosch 044, any good? They seem to be resonably priced on ebay, any feedback from people who have actually used them?

  41. #40
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    Bosch 44 or da31 same spec, slightly cheaper and work well.. Bill sells the plug and play fitting kit

 

 
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