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Thread: Stage 2 APR Remap

  1. #1
    ollie2013uk's Avatar
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    Stage 2 APR Remap

    I have finally had time to get my car on the roller this AM (after a lovely holiday) at Clive Atthowe in Norwich after Awesome re-mapped it a cpl of weeks ago.

    Following on from the last post I made on the day AWESOME re-mapped it, i'd like to clear that I was 100% happy with AWSEOME's service and advice. The boost pipe was an unfortunate event that occurred and was only due to the fact I had not tightened it up properly after a new DV was fitted. The fact they couldn't dyno my car was due to the sheer work load they had on the day. Which obviously is a sign of a successful business.

    I've used awesome quite a few times and actually have no issues travelling over 200 miles to have them do work to my cars regardless of the cost! I would without a doubt say that they are the only tuning company I would trust let alone recommend to any VAG owner.

    Here are the results:

    img001.jpgimg002.jpg
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    Guessing they ran it on a 4wd dyno by the looks of that graph...

    Nice figures...

    <tuffty/>
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    Guessing they ran it on a 4wd dyno by the looks of that graph...

    Nice figures...

    <tuffty/>
    Thanks Tuffty, Yeah good old haldex kicking in!

    I was delighted with the results to be fair, I have a new love for the S3 at the moment!!

  5. #4
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    Oh man, have them disconnect the haldex so it runs fwd next time. That interference makes a really ugly power curve

    Good figures though, thanks for posting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Oh man, have them disconnect the haldex so it runs fwd next time. That interference makes a really ugly power curve

    Good figures though, thanks for posting!
    Cheers Evan, I know its a bit ugly, nevermind. Definitely happy with the results, to be honest I wasn't expecting the torque to be quite so high. I wouldn't mind seeing some comparable figures from others and even APR stage 2 results.
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  7. #6
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    Nice figures....

    Strange they ran it without the Haldex pulled

    Anyway - what supporting mods were you running to get this?
    2000 S3 APY

    18" BBS RSII with Michelin PS3s, 20mm H&R adapters, Relentless 3" DP and Sports cat, B5 V1 induction kit, cone filter+heat shield, Forge 007P, Awesome GTI SMF, AP coilovers, Facelift rear lights, Full Powerflex poly bush kit, R32 Rear ARB, SAI delete, N249 by-pass, Upgraded Engine mounts with Polytek, Stage 1 CC at Badger 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwistof View Post
    Nice figures....

    Strange they ran it without the Haldex pulled

    Anyway - what supporting mods were you running to get this?
    To be fair, i was happy to have the haldex connected as its never disconnected when I drive it.

    I have a Front Mount Intercooler, Badger5 tip pipe, Forge 007p DV, Standard exhaust with both cats removed and a green cotton panel filter in the OEM box.

    What are your results with your mods?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ollie2013uk View Post
    To be fair, i was happy to have the haldex connected as its never disconnected when I drive it.

    I have a Front Mount Intercooler, Badger5 tip pipe, Forge 007p DV, Standard exhaust with both cats removed and a green cotton panel filter in the OEM box.

    What are your results with your mods?
    Try it with the OEM, Revision D DV sometime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Try it with the OEM, Revision D DV sometime
    Ok, what will you notice from that?

  11. #10
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    Should get better boost recovery. And you won't have to service it.
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ollie2013uk View Post
    To be fair, i was happy to have the haldex connected as its never disconnected when I drive it.

    I have a Front Mount Intercooler, Badger5 tip pipe, Forge 007p DV, Standard exhaust with both cats removed and a green cotton panel filter in the OEM box.

    What are your results with your mods?
    Fair enough- As long as your happy, at the end of the day.

    What FMIC and version of the B5 TIP do you have?

    B5 V1 TIP with Jetex Filter and heat shield, 007P DV, new MAF and O2 sensor = mine was just shy of 250bhp on Bill's rollers last year, but that was before I put the 3" DP and Sports cat on, N249 by-pass and SAI delete.

    So do you have a de-cat but with the standard downpipe then?
    2000 S3 APY

    18" BBS RSII with Michelin PS3s, 20mm H&R adapters, Relentless 3" DP and Sports cat, B5 V1 induction kit, cone filter+heat shield, Forge 007P, Awesome GTI SMF, AP coilovers, Facelift rear lights, Full Powerflex poly bush kit, R32 Rear ARB, SAI delete, N249 by-pass, Upgraded Engine mounts with Polytek, Stage 1 CC at Badger 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwistof View Post
    Fair enough- As long as your happy, at the end of the day.

    What FMIC and version of the B5 TIP do you have?

    With the mods in my sig, mine was just shy of 250bhp on Bill's rollers last year, but that was before I put the 3" DP and Sports cat on. So do you have a de-cat but with the standard downpipe then?
    I've got an AH Fabs intercooler, and a V2.2 TIP. Yeah standard downpipe, I may upgrade the downpipe soon but I'm not too convinced on the gains for money involved on having a whole new system.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Should get better boost recovery. And you won't have to service it.
    OK, I'll buy one and try it out. I'll give audi a call tomorrow and ask for one.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ollie2013uk View Post
    I've got an AH Fabs intercooler, and a V2.2 TIP. Yeah standard downpipe, I may upgrade the downpipe soon but I'm not too convinced on the gains for money involved on having a whole new system.
    I'm not to sure on APR's requirements for stage 2 - but the majority of tuners recommend a turbo back exhaust for stage 2 as it is quiet restrictive.

    For the money I paid for my relentless 3" DP and sports cat, it seemed very good value IMO. Can't say the exact gains tbh- but have a search on here about them. I'm sure DP's have been tested before by those who are less convinced of the gains and I rarely see anyone say it was a bad decision and they weren't satisfied with the end results.
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  16. #15
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    Our minimum hardware requirement for stage 2 is a decat/sport cat downpipe. TBE is better of course. Intake and FMIC are supplemental, but should be present to get the best possible result from stage 2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwistof View Post
    I'm not to sure on APR's requirements for stage 2 - but the majority of tuners recommend a turbo back exhaust for stage 2 as it is quiet restrictive.

    For the money I paid for my relentless 3" DP and sports cat, it seemed very good value IMO. Can't say the exact gains tbh- but have a search on here about them. I'm sure DP's have been tested before by those who are less convinced of the gains and I rarely see anyone say it was a bad decision and they weren't satisfied with the end results.
    I had to have my car re-mapped when I did as i was on holiday the following week and didn't have time to get an Exhaust so i removed my cats to have it stage 2'd. I'll probably go downpipe soon but was a little shocked at the power from the standard piping. hence why i'm now re thinking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Our minimum hardware requirement for stage 2 is a decat/sport cat downpipe. TBE is better of course. Intake and FMIC are supplemental, but should be present to get the best possible result from stage 2.
    Evan, based on the results from my dyno what further gains would you expect to see from my car with a de-cat downpipe and a sports exhaust?

  19. #18
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    It's hard to say. You're running a decatted stock pipe, correct? If there are no cats already, then a majority of the restriction has been removed and I wouldn't expect much more tbh.
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  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    It's hard to say. You're running a decatted stock pipe, correct? If there are no cats already, then a majority of the restriction has been removed and I wouldn't expect much more tbh.
    Yeah thats correct, thats what I was thinking to be honest. For the cost involved I can't see the benefit at the moment. Maybe if I was going bigger turbo etc i would.
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    Stage 2 should really include an uprated actuator, you'd be able to run nearer 18psi at redline rather than the 14psi you are at the moment..

    Id say its an important part of a stage 2 now a days to get good performance...
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  22. #21
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    I would say the downpipe is more of a restriction than the cats... benefits of using a 3" DP include lowering of EGT's and better spool etc... the factory K04 DP is a joke... lowering EGT's is always a winner...

    <tuffty/>
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  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbuggy View Post
    Stage 2 should really include an uprated actuator, you'd be able to run nearer 18psi at redline rather than the 14psi you are at the moment..

    Id say its an important part of a stage 2 now a days to get good performance...
    Really??? Right now, the car is putting out (good!) reliable power figures for a standard K03 engine. We don't calibrate for wastegate actuators or different N75 valves or other devices that trick the car to run more boost, because we have complete control of the ECU. And when you make a complete calibration that runs more power in the same way an OEM would calibrate it, you don't need to trick the car.

    Your suggestion is to put in a piece of hardware to force the car to run more boost all the time? It's the same as running a manual boost controller. Unfortunately, adding boost isn't the only way to increase power and it's certainly not the most reliable route for a turbocharged engine. If we wanted to make it unsafe, we could run the car lean, or request more timing or more boost than the turbo is capable of, but that wouldn't last very long, would it?

    Tune smarter.
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  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Really??? Right now, the car is putting out (good!) reliable power figures for a standard K03 engine. We don't calibrate for wastegate actuators or different N75 valves or other devices that trick the car to run more boost, because we have complete control of the ECU. And when you make a complete calibration that runs more power in the same way an OEM would calibrate it, you don't need to trick the car.

    Your suggestion is to put in a piece of hardware to force the car to run more boost all the time? It's the same as running a manual boost controller. Unfortunately, adding boost isn't the only way to increase power and it's certainly not the most reliable route for a turbocharged engine. If we wanted to make it unsafe, we could run the car lean, or request more timing or more boost than the turbo is capable of, but that wouldn't last very long, would it?

    Tune smarter.
    Its a K04...

    ...and at the age of these cars (a subject discussed in a very similar thread) actuators will be getting tired... calibration on a
    map developed on one car isn't going to be the same as another 'at this age'...

    <tuffty/>
    Last edited by <tuffty/>; 8th July 2013 at 18:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Really??? Right now, the car is putting out (good!) reliable power figures for a standard K03 engine. We don't calibrate for wastegate actuators or different N75 valves or other devices that trick the car to run more boost, because we have complete control of the ECU. And when you make a complete calibration that runs more power in the same way an OEM would calibrate it, you don't need to trick the car.

    Your suggestion is to put in a piece of hardware to force the car to run more boost all the time? It's the same as running a manual boost controller. Unfortunately, adding boost isn't the only way to increase power and it's certainly not the most reliable route for a turbocharged engine. If we wanted to make it unsafe, we could run the car lean, or request more timing or more boost than the turbo is capable of, but that wouldn't last very long, would it?

    Tune smarter.
    Dyno graph says its an S3 so surely a K04 :-/

    Or is this S3 going for BIG power and been changed to a K03S ;-) lol
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  26. #25
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    Come on guys, don't beat Evan up its an obvious typo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Really??? Right now, the car is putting out (good!) reliable power figures for a standard K03 engine. We don't calibrate for wastegate actuators or different N75 valves or other devices that trick the car to run more boost, because we have complete control of the ECU. And when you make a complete calibration that runs more power in the same way an OEM would calibrate it, you don't need to trick the car.

    Your suggestion is to put in a piece of hardware to force the car to run more boost all the time? It's the same as running a manual boost controller. Unfortunately, adding boost isn't the only way to increase power and it's certainly not the most reliable route for a turbocharged engine. If we wanted to make it unsafe, we could run the car lean, or request more timing or more boost than the turbo is capable of, but that wouldn't last very long, would it?

    Tune smarter.

    Evan,
    I assume you mean K04!? Sure a typo.

    i am in no way slating or putting down the work or results here.....

    i appreciate you might not retune the n75 maps, but it has been proved time and time again running an updated actuator will give you more power from less boost.


    There are no tricks involved... Why do you need to trick an Ecu....??

    I merely stated a stage 2 car needs a updated actuator, just like good manifold, exhausts etc etc....2 reasons. 1) I guarantee the the original is weak and you are running 95%dc on the n75 , even on this tune you get 14psi. And secondly you will get more control with and updated actuator even if it is stronger.

    who said anything about it being unsafe, is 18psi max boost holding better than 22psi?


    there is no suggestion what so ever about more boost, merely allowing the turbo to boost to its potential rather than a weak actuator allowing boost to bleed off as the actuator can't do it's job..

    i appreciate your sentiment, but I think you've totally mis understood my point!

    Have a look at Gops thread and you will see his stage 2 ran more power from less max boost and well with its safety range from updating his actuator amongst things and running smarter..

  28. #27
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    Evan must be thinking you meant to add an actuator with generic software, which is all apr is in this instance, so couldnt accomodate an uprated actuator, unfortunately.

    Proper mapping needed for the uprated actuators, which is what beachbuggy had in mind.


    'Tune smarter'
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    Its a K04...

    ...and at the age of these cars (a subject discussed in a very similar thread) actuators will be getting tired... calibration on a
    map developed on one car isn't going to be the same as another 'at this age'...

    <tuffty/>
    Ah! K04. Gotta love the fat fingers flailing during a frenzied response :P

    When I see people recommend parts that aren't particularly necessary or beneficial for the overall performance of the car, I get fired up haha! And maybe I've misunderstood some comments here (for which I apologise if that's the case), but I think it's best I lay all of my cards on the table for clarification and reading enjoyment.

    To your point; Replacing worn OEM actuators is one thing. Changing the actuator to a stiffer solution is another. If you don't mind, allow me to add the other side of this modification that isn't commonly considered when upgrading outside of the recommended manufacturers' specifications.

    Consider that the S3 with our software is already running as close as possible to the compressor surge line as we deem safe. Also, remember the software is set to request and expect a certain boost pressure at any given moment. When boost pressures are off, it will throw error codes, pull timing, and could potentially default into protection mapping. The hardware needs to work in harmony with the software.

    SO, by adding a stiffer actuator/spring to the turbo, the goal is to keep the wastegate closed, effectively forcing the turbo to run higher pressures for longer, no? Remember, boost pressure is dynamic and what is requested of the turbo changes throughout the powerband. If the software is already requesting nearly maximum of the turbo's capability, is it really necessary to push beyond the limits for a few extra ponies? Any calibrator can tune the ECU to request 100% wastegate duty cycle (the same thing an uprated actuator would do), but it's not good for the longevity of the turbo and that's why we don't do it

    [science] By forcing the wastegate closed in lower/mid rpms at WOT, you run the risk of actually hitting that surge line and causing compressor surge (bad). By forcing the wastegate closed toward redline may get you a few extra PSI out of the turbo, but in all reality, we have the calibration up nearly as high as possible. If you're at stage 2, not 2+, the next bottleneck is the fuelling system, and with a stock HPFP, fuelling may become a problem and you'd run into misfires. [/science]

    As mentioned 14psi redline is a bit low. You should be closer to 18-20 PSI on a healthy K04.

    Hopefully this helps clarify my POV on the subject and provides something new to the discussion that hadn't been previously covered or considered.

    Cheers guys!

    e
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  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    Evan must be thinking you meant to add an actuator with generic software, which is all apr is in this instance, so couldnt accomodate an uprated actuator, unfortunately.

    Proper mapping needed for the uprated actuators, which is what beachbuggy had in mind.


    'Tune smarter'
    see above
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  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Ah! K04. Gotta love the fat fingers flailing during a frenzied response :P

    When I see people recommend parts that aren't particularly necessary or beneficial for the overall performance of the car, I get fired up haha! And maybe I've misunderstood some comments here (for which I apologise if that's the case), but I think it's best I lay all of my cards on the table for clarification and reading enjoyment.

    To your point; Replacing worn OEM actuators is one thing. Changing the actuator to a stiffer solution is another. If you don't mind, allow me to add the other side of this modification that isn't commonly considered when upgrading outside of the recommended manufacturers' specifications.

    Consider that the S3 with our software is already running as close as possible to the compressor surge line as we deem safe. Also, remember the software is set to request and expect a certain boost pressure at any given moment. When boost pressures are off, it will throw error codes, pull timing, and could potentially default into protection mapping. The hardware needs to work in harmony with the software.

    SO, by adding a stiffer actuator/spring to the turbo, the goal is to keep the wastegate closed, effectively forcing the turbo to run higher pressures for longer, no? Remember, boost pressure is dynamic and what is requested of the turbo changes throughout the powerband. If the software is already requesting nearly maximum of the turbo's capability, is it really necessary to push beyond the limits for a few extra ponies? Any calibrator can tune the ECU to request 100% wastegate duty cycle (the same thing an uprated actuator would do), but it's not good for the longevity of the turbo and that's why we don't do it

    [science] By forcing the wastegate closed in lower/mid rpms at WOT, you run the risk of actually hitting that surge line and causing compressor surge (bad). By forcing the wastegate closed toward redline may get you a few extra PSI out of the turbo, but in all reality, we have the calibration up nearly as high as possible. If you're at stage 2, not 2+, the next bottleneck is the fuelling system, and with a stock HPFP, fuelling may become a problem and you'd run into misfires. [/science]

    As mentioned 14psi redline is a bit low. You should be closer to 18-20 PSI on a healthy K04.

    Hopefully this helps clarify my POV on the subject and provides something new to the discussion that hadn't been previously covered or considered.

    Cheers guys!

    e
    Evan ,

    We are talking about APR running there stock stage 2 sw and bespoke SW tuned for the uprated actuator...

    Yes with your sw, the uprated actuator isn't a good idea as you will over boost..

    Updated actuators are being fitted, as they work but they need custom tuning. And it's possibly the most popular mod at the moment...


    No surge, better compressor efficiency, better and more stable boost control all equals more power...
    Last edited by jojo; 8th July 2013 at 23:01.

  32. #31
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    Also Evan, sorry if you think I'm being an arse, I'm not and certainly not trying to be..
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  33. #32
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    higher flow intakes, downpipes, exhausts.... all help flow.. and keep things efficient
    heat management of the inevitable k04 temps also important.. keep it cool, fmic, wmi etc all help it stay efficient and consistent.

    Add different hardware like 12-15psi actuators, and the map must be changed to avoid massive overboost from PID/N75 control maps.. and disaster will likely follow if just added on top of "anyones map" not tuned for these.

    Full control is achievable with the uprated actuators... and n75 duty cycles will be significantly lower, but the max flow from the turbo will not change.. Its mass flow output is going to be the same. Firmer actuator, holds shut for lower duty cycles, and the gains are in recovering the "old likely tired" 10 year old actuator, which is being pushed open from the high backpressures these things see.. hence the lower high rpm boosts seen on a lot.. requests are at their ~2400mb level but actuals 2100mb levels and max duty cycle to n75.. = tell tale of tired actuators. these are older cars remember folks.. Need some tlc and attention, and where hardware changes are applied like actuators, software must also be changed to suit to avoid issues.
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  34. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbuggy View Post
    Evan ,

    We are talking about APR running there stock stage 2 sw and bespoke SW tuned for the uprated actuator...

    Yes with your sw, the uprated actuator isn't a good idea as you will over boost..

    Updated actuators are being fitted, as they work but they need custom tuning. And it's possibly the most popular mod at the moment...


    No surge, better compressor efficiency, better and more stable boost control all equals more power...
    There are plenty of companies that create products that aren't necessarily beneficial for most configurations. I could rattle off a list of products people fit as popular modifications that actually perform worse than the factory components, but . My goal is to try to educate the community and provide insight to how products will or will not benefit them.

    Your point is valid if "generic" tuners' files leave a lot on the metaphorical table. For this particular calibration (the point I was trying to make specifically to the OP who runs our software), the file is already pretty far up there in terms of WDC. Adding an uprated actuator would produce marginal gains at best, and could cause issues without changing the map. I think the best thing here would be to recommend all remapped customers take some time and acquaint themselves with the way their cars are running via data logs to help gain a better perspective of how their car is actually performing.

    Knowing this, I hope you understand why I reacted the way I did to the concept of adding an uprated actuator to his current configuration.

    Maybe there are tuners out there with calibrations that would benefit from some extra, bespoke attention to a modification like this, but in all reality the turbo can only do so much, and APR customers won't need it.

    To clarify, I'm not trying to have a go. Nor was the intent to derail the thread like this, but here we are. I just hope that this information is useful to you and anyone else reading along with us.
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  35. #34
    Gops's Avatar
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    The updated actuator in mine helps a lot! Made impressive figures on bills dyno and yet it's on a safe map. The OP has great numbers, I hope he enjoys it as I do with mine but he may one day benefit from an updated actuator as std ones seem to be quite weak!
    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    its either mapped or broken...

  36. #35
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan@APR View Post
    Your point is valid if "generic" tuners' files leave a lot on the metaphorical table. For this particular calibration (the point I was trying to make specifically to the OP who runs our software), the file is already pretty far up there in terms of WDC. Adding an uprated actuator would produce marginal gains at best, and could cause issues without changing the map. I think the best thing here would be to recommend all remapped customers take some time and acquaint themselves with the way their cars are running via data logs to help gain a better perspective of how their car is actually performing.

    Knowing this, I hope you understand why I reacted the way I did to the concept of adding an uprated actuator to his current configuration.

    Maybe there are tuners out there with calibrations that would benefit from some extra, bespoke attention to a modification like this, but in all reality the turbo can only do so much, and APR customers won't need it.
    The higher actuator on a fixed generic map is bad news.. and recipe for broken engine.. Thats the headline message someone should heed.

    These remain old cars.. and they are very wide ranging in their "before remap" performance, with their age and wear and tear.. It is impossible for the outcome to be consistent when the software is fixed but the engine is "variable" in wear and tear terms.

    I see a lot of tired 1.8t's and a few good ones.. and a lot with mods.. of assorted qualitys and specs.. They do not all respond the same.

    One thing which is a theme is turbo actuators on k04's are becoming for often weaker... and the boost they can maintain vs a fresh cousin is quite different. 3-4 psi >5krpm between healthy and not so healthy

    Logs will as ever confirm... request vs actual abd n75 duty cycle.. << Thats the tell for weak actuator.. Healthy ones will hold 16-18psi @ 5500rpm, tired ones wont... and can plummet to 12-14psi in comparison.. The weak ones do not hold their torque well and their power is correspondingly that bit lower.

    Question for the OP, were logs done during your recent dyno? Able to post them up?
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  37. #36
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    Me like to see logs :D As i would benefit from comparing with the map on my car now :D

    Also Bill if you have any logs from one of the car (stage1 - 2, no Tuffty's car specs lol) you mapped it would be great if you can share
    Last edited by Chlippo; 12th July 2013 at 04:28.
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    For help/info/pricing on xs manifold and downpipe pm me (not affiliated, nor a reseller trader, just an enthusiast!)

 

 

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