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  1. #1
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    How about this (Updated)

    Today being the first day that it has not rained for a century i decided to set to work giving the car a clean. Got to the part of cleaning my wheels where i noticed something quite frightening



    Notice on this photo Three wheel nuts missing!



    Firstly i thought maybe somone had tried takeing my wheels but where spooked, so i went round with a socket to see if any other wheel nuts where loose. Started with the front wheels and they where all fine, then checked the other back rear wheel to fined the first bolt just snapped off. I then looked more closely at the other wheel to realise that the bolts have snapped off in the hub.

    In this picture one of the wheels nuts is the snapped one, the other is one i removed without breaking. As you can see the one that is not broken has still been cut down in size.



    There also seems to be a 10mm spacer between the wheel and hub



    Now i am no wheel exspert so i need some guidance here. i need some new bolts, but what one do i need to get? as i dont want this happening again. Is this a problem when wheels are spaced off the hub?

    Thanks

    Last edited by Dan s3 audi; 2nd January 2013 at 15:27.

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  3. #2
    JudderMan's Avatar
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    I think that's the problem with spacers, they add too much stress the only things that hold the wheels on. I guess the wheels aren't standard offset and that's why there has been a need for spacers, but in terms of safety I'd rather a car looks standard than have the wheels fall off.

    If it was me, I'd sell the wheels and remove the spacers and get some wheels with the correct offset. Even better/stronger wheel nuts might still fail.
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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudderMan View Post
    I think that's the problem with spacers, they add too much stress the only things that hold the wheels on. I guess the wheels aren't standard offset and that's why there has been a need for spacers, but in terms of safety I'd rather a car looks standard than have the wheels fall off.

    If it was me, I'd sell the wheels and remove the spacers and get some wheels with the correct offset. Even better/stronger wheel nuts might still fail.
    Thats a fair point about the spacers, But there must be a way to make it work as from what i see soo many people have custom wheels on their car with spacer kits.

  5. #4
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Spacers are fine if the bolts are of the correct grade... can't speak for those bolts but I have run 10mm front and 15mm rear for years with no issues...

    Bill at Badger 5 sells wheel bolts... I trimmed the fronts ones on mine as the ones I had were too long and hit the ABS ring... you need to make sure that whatever bolt you go for has at least 3 threads sticking out the back of the hub when fitted..

    <tuffty/>
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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    Spacers are fine if the bolts are of the correct grade... can't speak for those bolts but I have run 10mm front and 15mm rear for years with no issues...

    Bill at Badger 5 sells wheel bolts... I trimmed the fronts ones on mine as the ones I had were too long and hit the ABS ring... you need to make sure that whatever bolt you go for has at least 3 threads sticking out the back of the hub when fitted..

    <tuffty/>
    Looked at the strength grade on the remaining bolts i have left in the wheels and they are 10.9 so i guess i need to see if i can get a higher grade and then make sure they are cut to correct length like you said. With the spacers are they ment to have slots in them or anything to lock them to the hub? or are they just ment to be smooth either side?

  7. #6
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    10.9 should be fine... spacers are smooth...

    Personally I think the problem you had here could be down to incorrectly torqued bolts or loose bolts (for whatever reason)... its also noticeable that there is no copper grease or similar high temp grease being used on the threads... this will make torquing bolts correctly trickier especially on hard bolts like wheel bolts...

    If the bolt wasn't torqued correctly (i maybe the 'right' setting but if the non lubricated bolt binds then you get a false torque response) then any movement would allow the bolt to get weak over time...

    Interesting read...
    Torque Tightening | Enerpac

    <tuffty/>
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  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    10.9 should be fine... spacers are smooth...

    Personally I think the problem you had here could be down to incorrectly torqued bolts or loose bolts (for whatever reason)... its also noticeable that there is no copper grease or similar high temp grease being used on the threads... this will make torquing bolts correctly trickier especially on hard bolts like wheel bolts...

    If the bolt wasn't torqued correctly (i maybe the 'right' setting but if the non lubricated bolt binds then you get a false torque response) then any movement would allow the bolt to get weak over time...

    Interesting read...
    Torque Tightening | Enerpac

    <tuffty/>
    Is there a standard tourqe setting for wheel bolts then? I will make sure they have grease on them befor hand, good tip. I am thinking maybe it due to hitting potholes, as the other day i did a 400mile round trip and on the dual carrage way i must have hit three massive pot holes that hurt my back they were that big. Being dark and with the crap headlights audi give you to see infront of you, its impossible to miss them.

  9. #8
    Gizmo20VT's Avatar
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    Our Torque settings for wheel bolts here in SA are 110nm.

  10. #9
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    Okay i am going to get some new bolts ordered, what size am i looking to get ? m12, m14, 1.25, 1.5? I am going to get 40mm long ones and cut them down to suit.

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    90ftlbs is what I do mine too...

    <tuffty/>
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    Gizmo20VT's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly we have m14x1.5 pitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo20VT View Post
    If I remember correctly we have m14x1.5 pitch.
    cheers mate

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    How about this

    Make sure the wheels are centred correctly on the hub, if they aren't direct bore wheels then they will require spigot rings and if they are missing then that can cause the bolts to snap.
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  15. #14
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    Well today i took the wheels off to remove the broken wheel bolts left in the hubs.



    On further exspection to why this may have happend i started to look at the spacers that have been used.



    On the side of the spacer that goes into the alloy wheel itself, it has a male tapered edge on the inside that goes into a female tapered edge on the alloy wheel. One thing i noticed is the tapered edge on the spacer seems a little large meaning when you hold the spacer up agaist the wheel it is not flush with the wheel it leaves a 1-2mm gap. I dont know if this is normal or not, or whether when the wheels get tightened on this then gets pulled flush?



    Thanks

  16. #15
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    Anyone?

  17. #16
    Gizmo20VT's Avatar
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    From the pictures it looks like the small tappering piece on the front of the spacer might cause the issue of the surfaces not sitting flush. Is that piece larger then the ID of the wheels spigot hole?

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    How about this (Updated)

    Looks odd to me. Iv personally never had an issue with spacers or snapping wheel nuts/bolts. You need some serious torque to snap them. Mabe that spacer makes the wheel sit a bit off and causes the thread of the wheel nut to go in cross threaded. If they where mine and you decide to keep the spacer id chop the tapered bit off.

  19. #18
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    when did you last take them off as it looks like there is a lot of rust on the thread copper grease is your friend . If they where on there for a wile and rusted in they could just snap under the pressure of you trying to undo them if there not the best in the world

  20. #19
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Does the spacer sit flush on the wheel? they are hub centric spacers...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    Does the spacer sit flush on the wheel? they are hub centric spacers...

    <tuffty/>
    the male taper on spacer seems to stop the spacer sitting flush agaist the wheel, Thus i think creating very slight movement while driveing the car weakening the bolts. Well thats my theory at the moment. So i guess then the way to sort this is maybe buy a set of new spacers?

    Cheers for the replies

  22. #21
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan s3 audi View Post
    the male taper on spacer seems to stop the spacer sitting flush agaist the wheel, Thus i think creating very slight movement while driveing the car weakening the bolts. Well thats my theory at the moment. So i guess then the way to sort this is maybe buy a set of new spacers?

    Cheers for the replies
    Something is really wrong there then dude... spacer should be flush... and decent wheel/spacer combo is... have seen this before on certain aftermarket wheels but if decent spacers and wheels then shouldn't normally be an issue...

    I'd check they sit flush on the hub too.... I wouldn't be refitting those spacers either way dude... accident waiting to happen... wheel spacer should sit flush and no type of wheel bolt will help you if they don't

    <tuffty/>
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  23. #22
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    yes thats what i thought and they do sit flush with the hub. So i am going to get some new ones off ebay, can i go for any ones that fit a audi ? or do they have to be specific to the wheels?

    Thanks again

  24. #23
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    Yeah, it'll be the taper on there causing the issue. Before the taper hits and stops it going on any further. Is the male part (the spigot) a nice snug fit in the wheels centre bore?

    Just to clarify, it's not even remotely safe to drive the car with them like that, you'll need to sort it before you drive it at all.

    Wheels are held on by the friction between the mating surfaces, the spigot shouldn't be taking any load, and isn't designed to; it's only there to centralize the wheel while the bolts are torqued up. Your mating surfaces aren't even touching, which is putting all the loading through the bolts and spigot, hence the snapped bolts.

    The easiest/best solution will be to grind/file a female taper into the back of the wheels to match the male one on the spacer, it doesn't need to be a touching or anything, just take enough off that the wheel and spacer will fit flush against each other by hand, go a little far if anything. Structurally removing material there's fine (most wheels have it from new, hence why the spacers have it) and It's such a small amount of material that it really shouldn't effect balancing. (If you mark a line say 5mm from the edge on both surfaces, then file them back to those lines then you'll ensure that they're even.)

    If you decide to get around it with new spacers, then make sure they don't have that taper on the wheel side, but do on the hub side. Personally I'd just modify the wheels, as the tapers are actually a good idea structurally. You'll also probably want to remove the burr that will no doubt now be on the edge of the wheels centre bore.

    The design of your spacers looks fine to me, and you may find other reputable ones still have the same issue, it's just that they've assumed the wheels will have a taper on them, as most do. (And in my eyes, all should do.) Are the wheels reps or real BBS? Personally I'd blame the wheels design in this situation, and modify them to get around it, but it's up to you really.

    Just to justify my opinion, My concern with not having the taper is that an internal corner will always have a slight radius to it from machining, while an external one may not do. So if you make an interface like the one on the wheels, to get them to sit together nicely the external corner on the wheel will need the corner taking off to clear the inevitable radius on the internal edge of the spacer from the machining. Sticking a nice big chamfer on the wheel's a nice way around this issue. Mimicking that chamfer on the spacer adds to the strength of the spigot by opening up the sharp edge that would be there without it.
    Last edited by RobinJI; 2nd January 2013 at 21:42.
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  25. #24
    Tricki's Avatar
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    No wonder the bolts broke.... without contact between spacer and hub the stress on the bolts are way too high. Weird you haven't felt vibrations in the car though, as a warning something was wrong?

    Nothing wrong with the spacer or the wheel though, they are just not made for each other... I have H&R spacers on mine (R20mm bolt on, F10mm clamp on), and they do have the correct outer bevel size for the original 17" AVUS wheels but didn't fit the 18" TSW summer wheels without modding. Luckily my TSW wheels use polymer inserts towards the hub so I modified the insert with a Dremel (carefully, spent more than an hour making them perfect).

    Check this to learn more: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39897860/H%...eiterungen.pdf
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  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinJI View Post
    Yeah, it'll be the taper on there causing the issue. Before the taper hits and stops it going on any further. Is the male part (the spigot) a nice snug fit in the wheels centre bore?

    Just to clarify, it's not even remotely safe to drive the car with them like that, you'll need to sort it before you drive it at all.

    Wheels are held on by the friction between the mating surfaces, the spigot shouldn't be taking any load, and isn't designed to; it's only there to centralize the wheel while the bolts are torqued up. Your mating surfaces aren't even touching, which is putting all the loading through the bolts and spigot, hence the snapped bolts.

    The easiest/best solution will be to grind/file a female taper into the back of the wheels to match the male one on the spacer, it doesn't need to be a touching or anything, just take enough off that the wheel and spacer will fit flush against each other by hand, go a little far if anything. Structurally removing material there's fine (most wheels have it from new, hence why the spacers have it) and It's such a small amount of material that it really shouldn't effect balancing. (If you mark a line say 5mm from the edge on both surfaces, then file them back to those lines then you'll ensure that they're even.)

    If you decide to get around it with new spacers, then make sure they don't have that taper on the wheel side, but do on the hub side. Personally I'd just modify the wheels, as the tapers are actually a good idea structurally. You'll also probably want to remove the burr that will no doubt now be on the edge of the wheels centre bore.

    The design of your spacers looks fine to me, and you may find other reputable ones still have the same issue, it's just that they've assumed the wheels will have a taper on them, as most do. (And in my eyes, all should do.) Are the wheels reps or real BBS? Personally I'd blame the wheels design in this situation, and modify them to get around it, but it's up to you really.

    Just to justify my opinion, My concern with not having the taper is that an internal corner will always have a slight radius to it from machining, while an external one may not do. So if you make an interface like the one on the wheels, to get them to sit together nicely the external corner on the wheel will need the corner taking off to clear the inevitable radius on the internal edge of the spacer from the machining. Sticking a nice big chamfer on the wheel's a nice way around this issue. Mimicking that chamfer on the spacer adds to the strength of the spigot by opening up the sharp edge that would be there without it.
    Well i am not sure whether these are real or fake bbs wheels, they where on the car when i brought it nearly a year ago. I have no plans on driving the car untill i sort the wheels out so thats okay. I think thats a very good idea to carefuly file the tapered edge on the wheel so that the spacer then fits flush. I was just not sure if these tapered edges butting up to each other served a purpose e.g. holding the wheel centre with the hub when fixed on. Anyway thats a job for the weekend then this car seems to keep my weekends busy for some reason.

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricki View Post
    No wonder the bolts broke.... without contact between spacer and hub the stress on the bolts are way too high. Weird you haven't felt vibrations in the car though, as a warning something was wrong?

    Nothing wrong with the spacer or the wheel though, they are just not made for each other... I have H&R spacers on mine (R20mm bolt on, F10mm clamp on), and they do have the correct outer bevel size for the original 17" AVUS wheels but didn't fit the 18" TSW summer wheels without modding. Luckily my TSW wheels use polymer inserts towards the hub so I modified the insert with a Dremel (carefully, spent more than an hour making them perfect).

    Check this to learn more: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39897860/H%...eiterungen.pdf
    Some good information on that link, i can see there are diffrent tapered angles for diffrent wheels. But i am going to opt for the cheap option and file a small amount of the taper on the wheel till its a flush fit.

 

 

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