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  1. #1
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Forged Rod Questions

    I'm in the process of making up a shopping list for some IE rods but before I place an order I have some questions which I couldn't find answers to.


    1. Is it advised to fit new piston rings when doing the rods? If so do you have to hone the bores or is it a case of replace the rings and reinstall?
    2. Should the ARP head bolt kit be fitted instead of OEM head bolts and if so is this the correct kit? (ARP 18t Head Bolt Kit 10MM)
    3. I've heard that some people have had issues with Calico bearings over OE bearings. Which should be used for a 300-350bhp build? If Calico, are these the correct ones -> Calico Coated ACL Race Rod Bearing Set for VW/Audi 4 Cylinder

    Finally this is my shopping list. Have I forgotten anything?


    1. Forged 144x20mm Rods (Rifle Drilled)
    2. Bearing Set (Calico or OE depending on the above)
    3. Redline Synthetic Assembly Lube
    4. Cylinder Head Gasket
    5. Head Bolt Kit (ARP or OE depending on the above)
    6. Oil Pan Sealant
    7. Piston Ring Set (Depending on the above)
    8. Engine Oil
    9. Oil Filter
    10. Oil Pickup Pipe
    11. Coolant
    12. Cambelt/Waterpump Kit

    Many thanks.

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  3. #2
    Prawn's Avatar
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    I wouldn't bothered with ARP head studs, they're simply not needed at your level.

    If you're going to the trouble of pulling your head off, and removing the pistons, for the sake of £50 it seems silly to me not to replace the piston rings, it's a few hours extra work, but well worth it.

    You should hone the bores when fitting new rings yes, but this can be done with a flex hone tool, around £35, and a cordless drill.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  4. #3
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    I currently use OE head bolts... its probably a good idea to change the rings as everything is apart, wear on rings varies but worth doing IMO... yes, re-hone is required as is checking the ring gaps of the new rings...

    Bill uses Calico bearings and has them in stock...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  5. #4
    RIP S3dave

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    calicos in my engines.. never had or heard of issues...
    where did you read this?
    **http://www.facebook.com/Badger5Ltd**

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  6. #5
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    I wouldn't bothered with ARP head studs, they're simply not needed at your level.

    If you're going to the trouble of pulling your head off, and removing the pistons, for the sake of £50 it seems silly to me not to replace the piston rings, it's a few hours extra work, but well worth it.

    You should hone the bores when fitting new rings yes, but this can be done with a flex hone tool, around £35, and a cordless drill.

    Thanks. I googled honing and saw a video on YouTube with some heavy duty machinery and thought "eek!".

    Cordless drills I can handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    I currently use OE head bolts... its probably a good idea to change the rings as everything is apart, wear on rings varies but worth doing IMO... yes, re-hone is required as is checking the ring gaps of the new rings...

    Bill uses Calico bearings and has them in stock...

    <tuffty/>

    Thanks, OE head bolts it is. That will bring the cost down a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    calicos in my engines.. never had or heard of issues...
    where did you read this?
    From a chap on SCN who was trying to sell me a set of rods he hadn't used. All he said was "I wouldn't go after market shells as there was a guy who had a problem and the advise is to stick to OEM."

  7. #6
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan87 View Post
    From a chap on SCN who was trying to sell me a set of rods he hadn't used. All he said was "I wouldn't go after market shells as there was a guy who had a problem and the advise is to stick to OEM."
    so pretty much unsubstantiated urban myth bs then....
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    http://www.badger5.co.uk, Tel:01453822880
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  8. #7
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    so pretty much unsubstantiated urban myth bs then....
    Yep, like the majority of the internet.

    Just thought I'd ask the question anyway.

  9. #8
    RIP S3dave

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    only problem I have had with calicos is getting hold of them on occasions.
    **http://www.facebook.com/Badger5Ltd**

    NEW NEW NEW eShop now LIVE>
    www.badger5.biz

    Badger 5 Ltd, Queen Annes Gate, Oldends Lane, Stonehouse, Glos, GL10 2DG


    http://www.badger5.co.uk, Tel:01453822880
    bill@badger5.co.uk
    **NEW** Badger5 Section CLICK here>> http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/213-badger-5/

  10. #9
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Shouldn't be a problem. I don't do things quickly and I'll be saving it for the Christmas holidays

    So that answers the first 3 questions.

    Re the shopping list, have I got everything?

  11. #10
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan87 View Post

    Re the shopping list, have I got everything?
    Just the gaskets for the inlet and exhaust manifold, and manifold - turbo. Plus if you intend to remove the turbo from the pay the crush washers for the oil / water lines, and a downpipe gasket.

    Oh, and Bills phone number Tel:01453822880
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  12. #11
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Ah yes gaskets and washers, thanks.

    Got Bills number, shall be ordering a v2.2 TIP from him this week to replace my SFS prototype. I'd order the rods etc from B5 as well, but with relatives in the states, buying direct from IE and getting them to bring them over in a spare suitcase makes more sense.
    Last edited by Yohan87; 18th October 2012 at 12:51.

  13. #12
    s3dave's Avatar
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    Calico used on mine with no probs...

    There was a guy on here who said after his install the pickup blocked and it was full of the calico coatings? inertia i think it was.. but thats not to say they were fitted incorrectly..

  14. #13
    Welly's Avatar
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    Calicos on three engines in the last 2 years, no problems with any.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Marriage is like a coffin and each kid is another nail."
    Homer Simpson





  15. #14
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    Calico used on mine with no probs...

    There was a guy on here who said after his install the pickup blocked and it was full of the calico coatings? inertia i think it was.. but thats not to say they were fitted incorrectly..
    Were they genuine Calico's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    Calicos on three engines in the last 2 years, no problems with any.
    I know that statement is meant to be reassuring but there is something about "three engines in the last 2 years" that has the opposite effect :D

  16. #15
    Prawn's Avatar
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    3 different cars perhaps
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  17. #16
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    3 different cars perhaps
    3 engines in two different cars. At no point were the bearings the cause of failure.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Marriage is like a coffin and each kid is another nail."
    Homer Simpson





  18. #17
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    I'm putting together a "Stage 2.5" spreadsheet at the moment with includes rods, everything needed to fit them, relentless manifold, large port head, 550 injectors, and WMI.

    Just want to see what the price of every component needed in one place looks like. So far, scary lol.

  19. #18
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan87 View Post
    I'm putting together a "Stage 2.5" spreadsheet at the moment with includes rods, everything needed to fit them, relentless manifold, large port head, 550 injectors, and WMI.

    Just want to see what the price of every component needed in one place looks like. So far, scary lol.
    Welcome....


    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  20. #19
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    That fcn sign is doing the rounds at the minute. The closer i get to collecting the S3 the more that damn sign is flashing in my head!

    Cactus green 8L S3 - B5 TIP + Jetex, Revised 007p, R32 rear ARB, AP Coilovers, Compbrake rear arms, Full Powerflexed dogbone.

  21. #20
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    That sign is bloody appropriate!

    Assuming all the the IE parts are bought in the states so no import tax, all the labour is done myself, and coupled with all the parts that would need replacing as part of the job, the total is still huge!

    Integrated Engineering Order
    Item
    Part Number
    Supplier
    Price (GBP)
    Forged 144x20 Rods (Rifle Drilled) IERV-14420 Integrated Engineering £309.43
    Calico Coated ACL Race Rod Bearing Set CAL-4B1606H Integrated Engineering £55.69
    Redline Synthetic Assembly Lube FLUIDS-REDLINE-ASSEMBLY Integrated Engineering £8.43
    Cylinder Head Gasket OEM-18T-HG Integrated Engineering £24.75
    ARP 18T Head Bolt Kit 10mm ARP-204-3901 Integrated Engineering £0.00
    OE Head Bolt Set OEM-18T-HBSET06A Integrated Engineering £21.69
    Oil Pan Sealant FLUIDS-OEM-PANSEAL Integrated Engineering £11.42
    Piston Ring Set OEM-18T-PRSET Integrated Engineering £26.61
    Shipping UPS-Ground Integrated Engineering £10.67
    Sub-total £468.69
    VAG Dealer Order
    Item
    Part Number
    Supplier
    Price (GBP)
    Engine Oil Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40 Opie Oils £42.16
    Oil Filter 068 115 561B VAG Dealer £10.28
    Oil Pickup Pipe 06A 115 251 VAG Dealer £11.02
    Oil Pickup Pipe Seal N02 822 22 VAG Dealer £4.50
    Coolant (3L x G13) G013 A8J M1 VAG Dealer £20.93
    Cambelt Kit 06A 198 119B VAG Dealer £124.31
    Cambelt Damper 06B 109 477 VAG Dealer £107.42
    Water Pump 06A 121 012GX VAG Dealer £46.01
    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (OEM) 058 129 717D VAG Dealer £4.30
    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00
    Large Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00
    Exhaust Manifold Gasket 058 253 039L VAG Dealer £7.64
    Turbo -> Downpipe Gasket 8L9 253 115A VAG Dealer £6.66
    Oil Feed Pipe Washers (x2) N01 381 28 VAG Dealer £0.74
    Coolant Line Washers (x2) N01 381 49 VAG Dealer £0.91
    Turbo -> Manifold Gasket 06A 253 039H VAG Dealer £6.83
    Turbo Oil Return Pipe Gasket 058 145 757C VAG Dealer £2.60
    Headgasket 058 103 83Q VAG Dealer £0.00
    Sub-total £396.32
    Total £865.01
    Last edited by Yohan87; 18th October 2012 at 16:13.

  22. #21
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Might I suggest, if you're pulling the head, fitting new rods and new piston rings and shells, an oil pump wouldn't be a bad idea too, just to keep things healthy
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  23. #22
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    And before you ask me, go to Euros or Ebay and get a topran pump. Cheaper than OEM but still good quality

    Cactus green 8L S3 - B5 TIP + Jetex, Revised 007p, R32 rear ARB, AP Coilovers, Compbrake rear arms, Full Powerflexed dogbone.

  24. #23
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Piston Ring Set OEM-18T-PRSET Integrated Engineering £26.61

    That will be per piston so 4 x required

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  25. #24
    Prawn's Avatar
    My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I got my ring set from GSF, £11 per piston
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  26. #25
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    Don't put that full race oil from the get go. You need to use dino oil during the running in procedure. Budget for 2 x 5 litres and 2 x oil filters just to cover the first 1000 miles IMHO One change after first warm up and one more around 500 miles later. Then 500 miles further on, go for the synth

  27. #26
    S3 TAM's Avatar
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    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00
    Large Port Inlet Manifold Gasket(Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00


    Didn't know bill was knocking these out for free. better get on the blower
    Revo Stage 2 with all the Gear
    BHP = 274 / Torque = 293




  28. #27
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 TAM View Post
    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00
    Large Port Inlet Manifold Gasket(Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00

    Didn't know bill was knocking these out for free. better get on the blower
    nor me.. I best order some in from me.. cheaper than buying them in ????? lol
    **http://www.facebook.com/Badger5Ltd**

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    http://www.badger5.co.uk, Tel:01453822880
    bill@badger5.co.uk
    **NEW** Badger5 Section CLICK here>> http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/213-badger-5/

  29. #28
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Might I suggest, if you're pulling the head, fitting new rods and new piston rings and shells, an oil pump wouldn't be a bad idea too, just to keep things healthy
    Oh yes, oil pump would be worth doing. Do it once and do it right and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason.s View Post
    And before you ask me, go to Euros or Ebay and get a topran pump. Cheaper than OEM but still good quality
    Cheers Jason.

    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    Piston Ring Set OEM-18T-PRSET Integrated Engineering £26.61

    That will be per piston so 4 x required

    <tuffty/>
    Oops, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan Pics View Post
    Don't put that full race oil from the get go. You need to use dino oil during the running in procedure. Budget for 2 x 5 litres and 2 x oil filters just to cover the first 1000 miles IMHO One change after first warm up and one more around 500 miles later. Then 500 miles further on, go for the synth
    Thanks for the advice

    Quote Originally Posted by S3 TAM View Post
    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00
    Large Port Inlet Manifold Gasket(Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00

    Didn't know bill was knocking these out for free. better get on the blower

    If only.

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    nor me.. I best order some in from me.. cheaper than buying them in ????? lol
    I do have the prices for your Phenolics, just marked them as "0" on the spreadsheet so I didn't have 3x gaskets in the sub-total mix!

  30. #29
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    just get a stroker kit, sorted Stroker Kits | Integrated Engineering

  31. #30
    Broken Byzan's Avatar
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    If you're paying? LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by jezzy View Post
    just get a stroker kit, sorted Stroker Kits | Integrated Engineering

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    paying

  33. #32
    g60leigh's Avatar
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    Forged Rod Questions

    [*]I've heard that some people have had issues with Calico bearings over OE bearings. Which should be used for a 300-350bhp build? If Calico, are these the correct ones -> Calico Coated ACL Race Rod Bearing Set for VW/Audi 4 Cylinder[/LIST].[/QUOTE]

    Are these the correct ones?

    2001 S3 (AMK)
    AEM WMI Kit, Black Silicone Hoses, Badger5 TIP with Cone Filter, AH Fabrications FMIC, Relentless Manifold Downpipe & Sport Cat, Miltek Cat Back Exhaust, VAG Aero Wipers, Forge FMDV008 Re-Circ, Revo Stage 2 Remap with SPS+ Tweaks, 2.0 TFSI Coil Pack Mod, B&M Short Shift, RNS-D Retrofit, Brembo & B5 2 Piece Rotor Conversion

  34. #33
    slydog18's Avatar
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    I actually thought that was quite a cheap price for a build like that....
    N88 GGY
    2002 Noggy Blue S3
    With Beige Alcantara and Black Leather
    18 x 8.5 Mercedes Eltanin Alloys, 225/40 18 Tyres, 20 front and 25mm rear PCD Adapters,AP Coilovers,
    Revo Stage 2 Map, Relentless V3 Manifold, 3" Downpipe, Custom Decat, QST Milltek Catback Exhaust, 80mm R-Tech/SFS TIP,
    S2000 Air Filter, Forge FMIC, Forge 008p DV, N249 Delete, Competition Clutches 6 Paddle Clutch with Single Mass Flywheel,

    Gti International 2013:- 1/4 mile - 13.52s

  35. #34
    Yohan87's Avatar
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    I guess it is cheap if you don't have to spend the money on other things

    Here is the revised and updated list.

    Integrated Engineering Order
    Item
    Part Number Supplier Price (GBP) Price (Options)
    Forged 144x20 Rods (Rifle Drilled) IERV-14420 Integrated Engineering £311.86 $499.99
    Calico Coated ACL Race Rod Bearing Set CAL-4B1606H Integrated Engineering £56.13 $89.99
    Redline Synthetic Assembly Lube FLUIDS-REDLINE-ASSEMBLY Integrated Engineering £8.50 $13.62
    Cylinder Head Gasket OEM-18T-HG Integrated Engineering £24.94 $39.99
    ARP 18T Head Bolt Kit 10mm ARP-204-3901 Integrated Engineering £0.00 $124.99 (£77.96)
    OE Head Bolt Set OEM-18T-HBSET06A Integrated Engineering £21.83 $34.99
    Oil Pan Sealant FLUIDS-OEM-PANSEAL Integrated Engineering £11.51 $18.45
    Piston Ring Set OEM-18T-PRSET Integrated Engineering £107.26 $171.96 (Check GSF)
    Shipping UPS-Ground Integrated Engineering £10.75 $17.24
    Sub-total
    £552.78
    VAG Order
    Item
    Part Number
    Supplier
    Price (GBP)
    Price (Optio
    Engine Oil 5L (After running in) Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40 Opie Oils £42.16
    Engine Oil x2 5L (For running in) Millers CRO 10w-40 Competition Running In Oil Opie Oils £43.42
    Oil Filter (x3) 068 115 561B VAG Dealer £11.37 £10.28 (for x1)
    Oil Pickup Pipe 06A 115 251 VAG Dealer £9.41 £11.02
    Oil Pickup Pipe Seal N02 822 22 VAG Dealer £2.53 £4.50
    Coolant (3L x G13) G013 A8J M1 VAG Dealer £13.78 £20.93
    Cambelt Kit 06A 198 119B VAG Dealer £78.85 £124.31
    Cambelt Damper 06B 109 477 VAG Dealer £75.30 £107.42
    Water Pump 06A 121 012GX VAG Dealer £29.17 £46.01
    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (OEM) 058 129 717D VAG Dealer £3.05 £4.30
    Small Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00 £65.75
    Large Port Inlet Manifold Gasket (Phenolic) N/A Badger5 Ltd £0.00 £65.75
    Exhaust Manifold Gasket 058 253 039L VAG Dealer £5.41 £7.64
    Turbo -> Downpipe Gasket 8L9 253 115A VAG Dealer £4.84 £6.66
    Oil Feed Pipe Washers (x10) N01 381 28 VAG Dealer £2.15 £0.74 (for x2)
    Coolant Line Washers (x10) N01 381 49 VAG Dealer £2.56 £0.91 (for x2)
    Turbo -> Manifold Gasket 06A 253 039H VAG Dealer £4.84 £6.83
    Turbo Oil Return Pipe Gasket 058 145 757C VAG Dealer £1.85 £2.60
    Headgasket 058 103 83Q VAG Dealer £27.79 £52.61
    Oil Pump 06A 115 105B VAG Dealer £139.91 £86.40 (£64.80) - ECP
    Sub-total
    £498.39
    Total
    £1,051.17

    Obviously this is a fairly comprehensive list and certain items may not be requried or could be obtained elsewhere for a bit cheaper. It still gives a rough idea of what's needed and the cost though for anybody else considering it

  36. #35
    kwistof's Avatar
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    Thanks for that list Yohan....interesting to see all the prices in one place along with the part numbers and where your buying it all from. I am toying with the idea of Forged Rods for 2013

  37. #36
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    You're welcome mate.

    Normally I just go ahead and order these things and don't look at the receipts but I wanted to see what this one looked like on paper. The lesson is, just buy things lol.

  38. #37
    1st Gear

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    That's a good list I'll find it useful. I've heard a lot of people like to fit manual cambelt tensioners for reliability reasons. Do you think they're necessary?

  39. #38
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
    Badger 5 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReDBull View Post
    That's a good list I'll find it useful. I've heard a lot of people like to fit manual cambelt tensioners for reliability reasons. Do you think they're necessary?
    Only really needed for high revving builds with fancy bits like supertech valves and springs, cams etc... the std damper compresses under the load... if going down that route you would also be considering dowling the crank pulley too...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  40. #39
    Neutral

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    is there any reason your changing pistons? what power are std capable of handling? also what kind of power is the crank good for?
    cheers

  41. #40
    1st Gear

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    The crank and pistions will handle plenty, it's the rods that are the weak link.

 

 
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