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Thread: TDI v's S3

  1. #41
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Sorry, but all your assumptions are just that (you know the saying, "assumption is the mother of al f**ck-ups").

    1) Nobody was driving like a clown (or "racing") - when you hit a bit of traffic, obviously you have to slow down. A car like the Honda with lots of power and no torque will not build speed up again from say 70 to 100 as easily as a car with lots of torque - hence he's going backwards; 2) he was definitely trying to get away; 3) I could certainly afford to buy an S3 (and run it) if I wanted one - I spent 20k on my A6, after all.

    You will also note that I didn't claim that an A6 1.9TDI could keep up with a chipped S3 with 300 lb/ft of torque.

    As I said, depends on your definition of fast. After a long period of highish speed motorway driving, we arrived at the same spot at the same time. You can deduce from that that an A6 1.9TDI is as "fast" as a Honda Accord Type R............. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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  3. #42
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]


    Face reality, if you could afford a S3 you would be driving one, not watching your pennies and trying to convince the great unwashed that a diesel is fast!
    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]


    LOL, what planet are you on, i payed more for my audi than what a new WRX turbo cost, so i dont think so, lets face it WRX with remap would [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif[/img] on your S3 would it not??

  4. #43
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Raced a few cars on the M5 and A30 on the way to Cornwall.

    One being some Merc SLK, we were going top out on but he definitely didnt loose me, I was with him all the way. We pulled into a roundabout and guess what..I out torqued him from about 55MPH all the way to 130MPH + I then slowed down as guilt, police and safety aspects were grinding away at me at 1.00am on a Thursday Morning. He was trying. I let him pass as the speed limiter was now kicking in (the girlfriend). By coincidence we both met again in Truro at a petrol station and he asked if I had a remap -- the answer was simple... "Not yet!" -- He was stunned.

    On the A39 a Subaru Impreza 2.0 WRX Estate was after some play. Great fun until we reached traffic. He had the acceleration over me from standing but from a rolling start I would pull ahead every time.

    I swear by the power of diesels now and will not go back; next car will probably be a BMW 535d. Petrol heads out there are either are in:
    Denial, or
    Embarrassed

  5. #44
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Exactly - couldn't agree more. When you're already moving, the diesel engine comes into its own as it will pick up speed quicker than many petrol engined cars. You are potentially going to struggle from a standing start, but like I said, that's not the real world (although the Corsa/Burberry pl@nkers seem to think it is.....)

  6. #45
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    If were talking about the real world then surely we all may as well drive 1.0L polos or similar. I mean what is the point in trying to get anywhere quickly???

    It not like driving on the continent where people respect faster cars and move out of the way, the pleb society here hold you up on purpose if your driving a fast car 'just to show you they exist too'

    I drive 80 miles to work and back everyday and it takes 45mins if i take the 911 turbo or the 1.2 clio.

  7. #46
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Just a thought but surely the S3 should be faster than the TDI? it's the top of the range so it should be the "best" version of the A3 thats available. If it was slower or had a poorer spec than other A3's why would you buy one?

    The TDI's are great cars in their own right but I didn't buy mine for speed - I could have bought something faster but I wanted something that looked good, was reliable, well built and had a great re-sale value.

    just my 2p's worth

  8. #47
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    I drive 80 miles to work and back everyday and it takes 45mins if i take the 911 turbo or the 1.2 clio.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Must be one hell of an upgrade pack on the clio to average 106.66 mph!! : [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

  9. #48
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    40 miles there and 40 back = 80 miles smartarse [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

  10. #49
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    My mum has a new A3 2.0 TDI, alongside my S3 it does feel almost as quick from 2 - 4 k rpm but you are constantly up and down the gears to keep it on the boil, I have had a few nasty moments in it pulling out to overtake and running out of revs.

    Sure a good diesel is quick if you drive it properly keeping it in the peak torque band but this is actually quite difficult to do. My S3 will pull from 2 - 6 k superbly in any gear. No diesel will do that.

    Lastly on the matter of economy I am not convinced the difference is as big as people say. On a steady motorway cruise the 2.0 TDI showed 53 mpg on the trip computer, sounds pretty impressive until you actually check it and find it overreads by 10%. then on the same journey my S3 had a measured MPG of 38.5. Of course driven hard the S3 drops to mid 20's but then the TDI drops to mid 30's. Factor in the difference in fuel costs and the gap narrows.

    People who drive diesels end up driving feather footed to try and achieve the manufacturers figures, if you drive a powerfull petrol the same ie: never going over 4k, you can also achieve some pretty good results.

    Oh yes and my mum's A3 chucks out black smoke when you boot it and somehow is just plain dull.

    Sure diesels have their place but they are no match for a petrol. Period.

  11. #50
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    Sure a good diesel is quick if you drive it properly keeping it in the peak torque band but this is actually quite difficult to do. My S3 will pull from 2 - 6 k superbly in any gear. No diesel will do that.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    mmmmm....... 2-6k you say, well most diesels only go as far as 5k so NOT FAIR. LOL

    Besides the 1.8T loses power over 5K and thats bad considering its a petrol.

    My diesel will easly pull from 1300rpm all the way to 5K no problems, no petrol will do that.

    Like with any car, you really have to get used to the throttlin and for when the turbo kicks in etc.. they are fun to drive!
    Its other ppl that have a nazi opinionated brain that always dis diesels, why is it, cant they actually drive??

    With regards to fuel economy mines around 46mpg to work and back. Not pussy footing around too, for long distances it'll get about 57mpg and no u dont have to drive like a granny to get those figures either.

  12. #51
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Ahmen.

  13. #52
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    You seem to be missing my point, I do not say that diesels are not quick. for your info I have owned 2 x 3 series 320 d 1 x 3 series 330 d 1 x Golf pd115 1 x Golf pd130 1 x 306 110 and thats just the diesels. So I think I am reasonably qualified to give an opinion.

    The point I am making is that diesels are hard to drive quickly because of the limited rev range. They 'feel' quicker than they actually are.

    Take the 330d for instance, bags of grunt and quick when driven properly, but when driven properly the economy drops like a stone 28 - 32 mpg about par for the course. If I drive my S3 to the same level ie: hard but never going over 4.5 k it will give 30 ish mpg.

    The MPG figures you quoted are they readings of the car or actual measurements ? All of the diesels I have owned have had to be driven very gently to get anywhere near the the quoted MPG figures.

    As I said if I drive my S3 in the same gentle manner it too gives very impressive economy.

    To be honest nobody is right or wrong on this issue, some will always favour diesels, some petrol, but after owning and covering many miles in modern diesels I know what I prefer.

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    I say guys, quit the passionate fighting talk, and sort it out on the track!

    Get a magazine involved, they can pay for the track hire, or be able to provide an airstrip, and we can sort this mess out.

    They get a full glossy cover of what everyone wants to read about - we get a free track/airfield day, get to meet everyone, and get to see who really is faster!!!

    Anyone willing to help?

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Its already been sorted, just replay top gear !

  16. #55
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Yup, but that was between 2 bimmers [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]

    What we need is a real world standard s3 vs 2.0 Tdi shootout, plus any others.

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    tut tut - and weve been here before - real life driving and I mean I commute on an airstrip everyday or even a track... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    never saydie, lets get it straight, are you saying your standard 120d is as quick ( or quicker ) than an S3 ?

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    yup real life driving round a track [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    what this has come round to is who's is the fastest, like the comments on the limited power band.

    Nobody is disputing that diesels give more mpg, I didnt buy an s3 for frugal fuel consumption, i wanted one because they're fast(ish) (doesnt compare to my corrado, but lets not go there..)

    I suppose this really could be sorted with a bit of a google, and getting some gps timed in-gear acceleration from 50-110 etc.- unless anyone got and audi-driver road tests?

  20. #59
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Slug, you drive like a nutter everywhere......I keep seeing you with one of the wheels on full suspension travel at least......

    go on tell us. what is your overall average speed and economy.....

    My money is on 35mph. 37mpg.....any offers.

  21. #60
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    I've been thinking about this for a while, I don't really like diesels but take for example the 2.0 GT TDi golf, a quite well respected car mag or two said it was the best golf over the 2.0 FSI and any other before the Gti came out.

    And I always assumed that the quoted MPG figures were a load of hairy [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif[/img], however another of the big car mags has said golf 2.0 GT TDi for 1 year and over 15,000 miles and they say it still returns over 46.1MPG over the whole time - something that makes you think as I don't think they ever drive like miss daisy. add to that the fact it can be remapped to 180 BHP then it must be quite fun.

    On the we should put this to the test front - S3 against 2.0 TDi, that's not really fair is it, that's a top of the range petrol versus a middle of the range diesel, for fairness I would say compare like with like a 2.0 FSI vs 2.0TDi, now that is something I would like to see and I think I know which one most people would prefer to live with (except maybe the noise [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img])

    ps... think people need to calm down a bit on this thread [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ok.gif[/img]

  22. #61
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    I think thats the point of this thread catching fire. People do think that the in-gear performance of the diesels is good enough, maybe not to beat, but to keep close to and maybe even "embarass" an S3.

    the only way i can think of doing this would be to do several timed flying laps..

  23. #62
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    We'll I've got an standard 210 S3 and don't mind giving it some if someone can think of how to do the test, anyone got a TDi they'd care to join me with?

    also I don't really mind being embarressed when I get beat by an oil burner [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bravo.gif[/img]

    ps... on the subject of surprising performance, some middle aged chap in a prius went for it off a set of lights yesterday, I think the instant torque the electric motor provides makes them pretty quick off the line, was an effort to get past, that said I started moving about a second later and wasn't really in the mood for racing a prius [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

  24. #63
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    I guess you'd need to be prepared to swap cars to make it truly objective.....

    10 laps in each, best 2 of each drivers compared. or something like that.....

    the mag / car prog ideas is best. get someone else to pay.

  25. #64
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    no this isnt about whos is quicker - my statement was and if you bother to read was it will out torque the S3/SLK's/GTi's/Type R's blah blah blah... Its proven - go look at the BMW 120d power specs.

    But really I'm just here to pitty the subject. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  26. #65
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Pflowers,

    28-32MPG for a 3 litre lump diesel being hammered is bloody good, how can that be compared to an S3??

    Myrichdad,

    LOL @ comment, no i do average 27mph @ 46mpg.

    Regards to suspension, time for an upgrade then, haha!

  27. #66
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Just round at Star Performance last night and a bloke in a A6 3.0 Tdi turned up. Opinion was that it would take a chipped S3 apart....

  28. #67
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    Just round at Star Performance last night and a bloke in a A6 3.0 Tdi turned up. Opinion was that it would take a chipped S3 apart....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    how can it? has it been chipped? a 3.0 TDI quattro has 225 PS as stock performance and an Unladen weight of 1765kg ...

  29. #68
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    Just round at Star Performance last night and a bloke in a A6 3.0 Tdi turned up. Opinion was that it would take a chipped S3 apart....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Have a word with yourself...

    Maybe in a world of never taking a bend or corner and never revving above 4000RPM...but with an able helmsman, not a chance...

  30. #69
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Have a word with the folk at SP.....

    Black A6 3.0 Tdi Quattro, on site Friday afternoon...

  31. #70
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    but with an able helmsman, not a chance...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Aha!

    Back to the major limiting factor fitted to all cars... Yep, its the driver.

    A whole range of incompetencies from "not trying" to downright "incapable". Reminds me of a story where a racing 125 cc machine took on a 1000 cc machine and kicked its ass....

    I think that this will be more of a match for your S3....

    Handling, carrying capacity, range, HP and torque figures, only let down by its turning circle, what a motor. Unmatched by any petrol unit I am aware of....

    Turning circle might be a bit of a problem when fitted as it can cause problems getting it on the drive.

    Someone get a competition together please....sort this out....

  32. #71
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    Have a word with the folk at SP.....

    Black A6 3.0 Tdi Quattro, on site Friday afternoon...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hmm...what's your point?

    I'm assuming Jim chipped an A6 up to give great power and torque. So what?

    Does that mean it will hand an S3 it's ass on a silver plate?
    No.
    It may well be hugely torquey and quick out of slow corners...but as quick on a twisty road, where nimble handling is an issue?
    I doubt it...altrhough using an S23 in this instance probably isn't such a good example...they aren't the last word in handling either, are they?

    I don't doubt it was hugely powerful...but that's not the whole story, is it?

  33. #72
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]

    Back to the major limiting factor fitted to all cars... Yep, its the driver.

    A whole range of incompetencies from "not trying" to downright "incapable".


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Driver...yes. But driver confidence is as large a part as driver skill.
    A reasonably good car that gives huge confidence and is easily accessible is easily faster in the hands of more people, than a much more capable car that takes years to master and racing driver like reflexes to drive.
    Back to the A6 vs S3...any given road I'll wager the S3 driver feels more at one with the car when driving to his / the cars limits than the driver of a diesel A6. For this reason alone, on a twisty challenging road, the S3 has an advantage.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Reminds me of a story where a racing 125 cc machine took on a 1000 cc machine and kicked its ass....


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was passed on the outside of a corner by a 250. I was on a 'blade...he was a better rider. I thought I'd pass him on the straight with way more power...never got near.
    The more nimble machine / rider just rode away.
    ...a bit like a chipped S3 vs A6 diesel, on a back road I think.

  34. #73
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    This thread has been an interesting read, just wanted to throw my thoughts in.

    My mate has a Bora 130 TDI. I went out in it and was VERY impressed with its energy, but the power comes in a brief lump then fades in all gears. That lump feels great, really pushes you back in your seat, but it's over too quickly to give an impressive "on paper" 0-60. I think it feels faster than it actually is.

    His TDI also fades at higher speeds, yes it gains speed but compared to the S3, which can quickly get to over 100 in 4th gear, it doesn't compete.

    He has been out with me in my S3 before and after chipping and he's in no doubt mine is the more powerful, but at half the BHP of my S3, his TDI gives a very good account of itself.

    I would definitely consider a diesel in the future though, most likely an Audi, VW or BMW. I think the German brands are getting the best results from diesels.

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    I have a chipped 2.0TDI and up to 100-120mph anyway, once on the move, the S3 would be going nowhere fast!

    And the Top Gear episode is all well and good, it was one type of car. You just have to look at the MKIV Golf PD150 compared to the 150bhp 1.8T to see that it's not always the case. I was embarrassed many times by them when I had a 1.8T and I'm not an F1 driver but I'm not a bad driver either.

  36. #75
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    just noticed that SP are putting on another track day at Knockhill, 15th Oct, 2-5 pm.... Guess I will have to sign up and try to pace some other types of cars... That will be the true test.

    Curiosity is killing this cat..

    See you there Glen ??

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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    His TDI also fades at higher speeds, yes it gains speed but compared to the S3, which can quickly get to over 100 in 4th gear, it doesn't compete.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My BMW can do 100 in 4th - although I know this is between VAG TDi cars and S3's.

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

  38. #77
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    just noticed that SP are putting on another track day at Knockhill, 15th Oct, 2-5 pm.... Guess I will have to sign up and try to pace some other types of cars... That will be the true test.

    Curiosity is killing this cat..


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You must me more daft than your comments suggest if you'd put a TDI against a petrol at a track like Knockhill...
    Of all the UK circuits, that's the one I'd give a TDI least chance.


    [ QUOTE ]

    See you there Glen ??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Love to...but I'm moving house that weekend.

    I'll tell you what though...I'll ask David R to pop along in my old chipped S3. Surely one chipped S3 is as good as another...so my previous steed should suffice.

    BTW, you ever watched David lapping Knockhill?

    I've watched him do 64 second laps in the wet...that's seconds quicker than the Evos, STIs, E46 M3s and C4Ss that were there that day...

    You sure you are ready for that huge portion of humble pie you are lining yourself up for?

  39. #78
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    [ QUOTE ]
    Just round at Star Performance last night and a bloke in a A6 3.0 Tdi turned up. Opinion was that it would take a chipped S3 apart....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Bizarre.. The things people think.. Each to their own I guess. The only way I can envisage an A6 TDI "taking apart" a chipped S3 is by crashing its not inconsiderable mass into the S3.

    [ QUOTE ]
    just noticed that SP are putting on another track day at Knockhill, 15th Oct, 2-5 pm.... Guess I will have to sign up and try to pace some other types of cars... That will be the true test.

    Curiosity is killing this cat..

    See you there Glen ??

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Anyhow, thanks to Glen for my weekend challenge! I'm going anyway so feel free to see how the cars compare - I'll not be taking part in any laying down of gauntlet, but if you want to make comparative times at the pit wall then go ahead - I'm confident that a standard S3 would be quicker than an A3 TDIQ. I may bring along my S13 200sx (180bhp) and I would fancy that to be quicker too.

  40. #79
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    Re: TDI v\'s S3


    Pity I can't make it David...

    [ QUOTE ]
    I may bring along my S13 200sx (180bhp) and I would fancy that to be quicker too.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Such a shame...as I could have brought along that old, overweight, underpowered, torqueless, ill-handling Mk3 Golf I have...

    I'll wager it too would turn in quicker laps than an A3 TDI.

  41. #80
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    Posts
    588

    Re: TDI v\'s S3

    Well that hooked em in...

    Three consequetive comments from the mods.... LOL

 

 
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