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Thread: CR hybrid stage 3 turbo ....

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    CR hybrid stage 3 turbo ....

    I finaly got my car back on the road after a bent con rod. Mods are as follows :
    IE drilled rods
    Wossner 8.5.1 pistons 82.5 bore
    large port head
    reletless v2 manifold
    Bagger 5 tip
    4bar reg
    cr stage three ko4 hybrid.
    Now i took the car to Jabba sport to get it custom mapped so everything works with everything. They mapped the car and everything but with not great results 262bhp. The problem was the boost peeked at 1.2 bar and dropped to 0.9bar. so good results for the boost i had but not enough boost. We smoke tested for boost leaks and nothing. I have checked dump valve and everything and cant fined nothing. The only thing i can think of is that when i fitted the turbo i thought the actuator was the wrong way up so took it off (being a dick i am) then reliased it was the right way. I did not know the need of pre load on the wastegate etc. so chould it be that i did not put any pre-load on the wastegate and now its opening when it shouldnt?
    It a cr turbo actuator on it so i guess it will be 10psi set. So do i just unplugg my n75 and set it to run 10psi then plug it back in again?

    Thanks

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    Prawn's Avatar
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    Hmmmm

    Very low CR. what's the reason for that? Most hybrids do better at 9.5:1 than those at 9:1!

    Also, without wanting to worry you, I'd say 262bhp is pretty poor for the boost given the spec. My 216k engine with the same cr turbos 10psi actuator and same hybrid turbo was making 274 bhp on actuator pressure alone, which peaks at 12psi or so.

    Id suggest that there is some sort of issue, but I'd hope jabba would have noticed and informed you.
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    I was told that running low compression pistons on a turbo car was better than standard. He was going through everything with me at jabba and he could not fined anything wrong, just that the boost was too low. I just cant work out why that is

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    Prawn's Avatar
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    Well, has he tried to up the boost through the map, would it simply not go any higher? Something isn't right there, and if jabba were any good they'd work out why!

    Low CR on turbo engines is old fashioned and out dated. It may well apply of you're bolting on a massive garret unit, but for standard framed turbos like your hybrid you can run the turbo right to its limit on an engine with 9.5:1 CR without running into issues with det, so there is simply no need to go lower.
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    well the low compression pistons were a mistake then, thats what happends when you go on over peoples advise lol. So with the n75 valve not plugged in i should be getting 12psi boost? because i think the problem lays with me touching the adjustment on the acuator.

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    Prawn's Avatar
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    It could well do mate. Bill set mine on the Bench to crack at 10psi, but when installed it opens at around 12psi.

    Unplug your n75 and go for a drive and see what it's boosting to. If its less than 10psi there's an issue! Of there's no preload at Ll it might never be shutting properly!
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    No i did not put any pre-load on, been reading and it was three whole turns from closed to get the correct pre-load. Guess this could be the problem with not creating the required boost levels i hope

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    However I am running low compression pistons with similar spec apart from currently running a small port head and I am making over 300bhp with the boost at 20psi. So it does sound like something else is going on.

    2000 Audi S3 Black. Engine rebuilt Wossner internals, custom map, B5 3" TIP, Haldex blue, sport shifter, H&R ARBs, Green filter, 8P gear knob, 18" RSTTs, K-sport 8 piston 330mm brakes Ferodo pads front & rear, Nitrac disc rear, AP coilovers, adjustable tie arms, Powerflex bushes all round, yellow mount, LCR splitter, 3" DP & decat, 006p & Liquid CUBE, Forge FMIC, 550 injectors, CR Hybrid Turbo Stage 4 and Custom manifold


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    well i dont know then i am about to give up with my **** on wheels. i would not even know where to start then, all i know is the guy mapping it said it was good bhp for the level of boost. what are the standard boost levels?

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    Dani_B19's Avatar
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    Standard s3 is around 11/12 psi.
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

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    Prawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy999 View Post
    However I am running low compression pistons with similar spec apart from currently running a small port head and I am making over 300bhp with the boost at 20psi. So it does sound like something else is going on.
    Better yes, but still lacking when you consider mine with higher CR was making 312bhp at 15psi...
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    so what would you say has gone wrong? as i have done everything to the best i can do. Everything in the engine was replaced including the crank. spent over 4k on parts. just spent £400 on the mapping at jabba, where i was told the bhp is good for the boost, but if i sorted the boost i will be closer to 300bhp, which after spending all the money i did hope for. Just feels like i have been fuc**d then!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Better yes, but still lacking when you consider mine with higher CR was making 312bhp at 15psi...
    True, don't you also have a large port head ? The most I have seen is 311 bhp but with almost equal torque and still have the large port head and NA cams to go on. So still some room for improvement hopefully.

    I am not claiming low compression is the way to go more that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    Last edited by Hammy999; 11th September 2012 at 21:49.

    2000 Audi S3 Black. Engine rebuilt Wossner internals, custom map, B5 3" TIP, Haldex blue, sport shifter, H&R ARBs, Green filter, 8P gear knob, 18" RSTTs, K-sport 8 piston 330mm brakes Ferodo pads front & rear, Nitrac disc rear, AP coilovers, adjustable tie arms, Powerflex bushes all round, yellow mount, LCR splitter, 3" DP & decat, 006p & Liquid CUBE, Forge FMIC, 550 injectors, CR Hybrid Turbo Stage 4 and Custom manifold


    Audi S3 (310 bhp & 311 lbft)
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    so what boost lever should i be running the ko4 hybrid at? for what bhp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammy999 View Post
    True, don't you also have a large port head ?.
    I do indeed have a large port. It made 329bhp at 19psi on mmy ancient engine. Wellys made 338bhp on 22psi, also large pport and 9.5:1 CR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan s3 audi View Post
    so what boost lever should i be running the ko4 hybrid at? for what bhp?
    hard to say because you have low comp pistons.
    most builds on here use standard or higher comp.
    id go off hammys if i were you, aiming for 300 at 20psi, seems reasonable to me. tubular mani being a big part in that probably!

    i cant believe jabba told you waht they did and left it like that.

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    They said that i was low on boost, that the car was mapped so that once i found the boost problem everything is pre set so that i dont need it mapped again. i.e fuel ratio is all set for the increased boost.

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    Stage 3 is a stock k04 turbine clipped, with the 2283 compressor.

    I fear that clipping a stock k04 turbine is not good news to start. Also you don't mention what fmic and dp you have

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    sorry the turbo from cr turbo's was highest spec well it cost me over £800 i think. i have a 007p dv but standard intercoolers.

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    superkarl's Avatar
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    wow, well you need an intercooler to realise this cars potential!

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    is this why i am only getting the 262bhp? because it cant flow and cool enough? that run on the dyno was done first so it was the best run befor everything got hot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan s3 audi View Post
    so what would you say has gone wrong? as i have done everything to the best i can do. Everything in the engine was replaced including the crank. spent over 4k on parts. just spent £400 on the mapping at jabba, where i was told the bhp is good for the boost, but if i sorted the boost i will be closer to 300bhp, which after spending all the money i did hope for. Just feels like i have been fuc**d then!
    Mate i feel your pain, i like you seek advise on forums, and there is that much **** on this and other forums its unbelievable, what happens is somebody says something then everybody says it right with little knowledge, then before you know it, its got to be right because everybody says so....right....No it *** isnt....

    It annoys the **** out of me because i like you have spent thousands for little gain, Im sorry Mr Prawny but i dont buy into this new found wonder of the higher comps...sure like other things it may help, but saying its not making 300+ because of standard comps is a little far fetched...

    I think the biggest downfall in a few builds on here are CR turbos, (Bleeding Hybrids alright!)there are just to much variance in the results, I have just spent another 5 hours at RS today and the turbo just will not flow... peaked at 322 with stupid boost manni glowing like the suns on strike... It was only happy at 290!!
    Paul said get rid of it ASAP .....*** Nice....

    Its taken 75 runs on the dyno yes 75 to get it just above what a ko4 makes.... 10 hours Dyno time = not cheap!!
    Last edited by s3dave; 11th September 2012 at 23:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    Mate i feel your pain, i like you seek advise on forums, and there is that much **** on this and other forums its unbelievable, what happens is somebody says something then everybody says it right with little knowledge, then before you know it, its got to be right because everybody says so....right....No it *** isnt....

    It annoys the **** out of me because i like you have spent thousands for little gain, Im sorry Prawn but i dont buy into this new found wonder of the lower comps...sure like other things it may help, but saying its not making 300+ because of standard comps is a little far fetched...

    I think the biggest downfall in a few builds on here are CR turbos, there are just to much variance in the results, I have just spent another 5 hours at RS today and the turbo just will not flow... peaked at 322 with stupid boost manni glowing like the suns on strike... It was only happy at 290!!
    Paul said get rid of it ASAP .....*** Nice....

    Its taken 75 runs on the dyno yes 75 to get it just above what a ko4 makes.... 10 hours Dyno time = not cheap!!
    On the point of giveing up with the car. just upsets me that a standard s3 with a map put on it will make what my car does. That was the most bhp jabba could get out of it. I also forgot to mention in the list that i have a 3"down pipe with a de-cat

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    Fook me dave, sorry to hear the bad news mate.

    So whats your plans now? Are you looking to scrap the hybrid and try a different one or you ready for frowing the towel in with hybrids all together?
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

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    While your lack of FMIC will not have helped, in no way would alter your results to that degree...

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    i agree you should still be making circa 300 even with lower comp, you'l just end up using a tad more boost to do it maybe.
    take the car back to jabba.
    the turbo will and should flow more than that, cr can back you up with that!
    and any issue with mapping or the cars hardware should be flagged up and sorted or at LEAST advised, you are paying for a specialist and extensive service afterall!

    in the event of them not co-operating, find a different tuner.

    maybe post some logs so people can have a better idea of what the car is doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani_B19 View Post
    Fook me dave, sorry to hear the bad news mate.

    So whats your plans now? Are you looking to scrap the hybrid and try a different one or you ready for frowing the towel in with hybrids all together?
    Had Enough of CR hybrids... going IHI or gt28 When i feel the love again....and my wallet has recovered....
    Its very strong on the road but i was just expecting that bit more so it will do for the time being dani,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    i agree you should still be making circa 300 even with lower comp, you'l just end up using a tad more boost to do it maybe.
    take the car back to jabba.
    the turbo will and should flow more than that, cr can back you up with that!
    and any issue with mapping or the cars hardware should be flagged up and sorted or at LEAST advised, you are paying for a specialist and extensive service afterall!

    in the event of them not co-operating, find a different tuner.

    maybe post some logs so people can have a better idea of what the car is doing.
    Post logs? how is this done sorry?

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    Can imagine your wallet will be like a hookers arse at the minute mate.

    Be interesting to see you go down the IHI route.
    Driving the most secretive S3 on ASN

  31. #30
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    20v's run higher comp ratio than is traditional for turbo engines as the engine design allows it too... the 20v is a pretty efficient engine and can get away with running higher comp pistons... 8.5:1 comp ratio is typical of the older turbo engines as thats what was needed to prevent detonation on high boost... the disadvantage being you lose off boost performance but gain on boost performance...

    Lower compression will affect overall power... you will get less power and torque from it for the same boost... of course you can dial timing in and there has been no mention of how much timing advance has been used in this map...

    10 psi seems a bit low to me... sounds like the gate maybe blowing open.... 1.2bar boost is pretty tame too... Welly was running 22psi (1.5bar) to get 330 odd hp...

    Due to the size of the engine boost is needed to get power from them... you would be surprised that even with my GT30 on lowish boost I would be struggling hp wise...


    Just because you have a more capable turbo doesn't mean you instantly get hp... you have to bloody work for it... trust me I have been trying to crack 400hp for 3 years lol...

    In my time tuning cars I have similarly specced builds vary wildly for no apparent reason... its surprising how little a change can make a huge difference in output

    I am not up to speed with CR's 'stage' designations so is the stage 3 a 2283 billet wheel? Bill has had similar issue with Danes when the original turbo was supplied with a copy hotside... the wastegate bush dropped and essentially left a gap in the gate making it laggy and unable to hold boost... that wasn't play the game power wise either

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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    Its very strong on the road
    this is what matters dave! obv you've lost money, tbh im surprised RS didnt have some sympathy and sort you out a deal

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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    this is what matters dave! obv you've lost money, tbh im surprised RS didnt have some sympathy and sort you out a deal
    He did what he could Karl, you still have to pay for his time/equipment, end of the day you cant polish a turd!!
    (or you can do so it seems but its hard)

    Paul from RS has rang CR and told him what he thinks, and he is not mapping another Hybrid ...

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    OP -- your actuator preload is too soft. There is nothing more diabolical here than that. 0.9bar of boost at the top end is about the best you can expect if the preload is very light. Try running the car with the N75 unplugged from power. what's the maximum boost you see at redline? Something like 6-7psi? That's because the turbo simply needs adjustment. Tighten the nuts on the wastegate until you see 12psi at redline. Then restore the N75's power from the harness. But you're going to need to update your mapping after this, that's for sure.

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    Dave, gutted that you're not happy. Especially with the amount of work you've put in.


    Sorry to ask but are you running a clipped wheel on yours and what where the maf readings on your 322 run if you know?

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    Dave, it appears your comment is aimed squarely at me , it's not Internet sensationalism based on random thoughts. It's simple facts, backed up by the maths, and countless real world examples

    In ANY engine, you always want to run the highest compression ratio you can get away with. Increasing the CR increases thermal efficiency. Be it turbos or not. CR is only dropped on turbo engines to avoid pre detonation. On an old school 8v engine low comps like 8.5:1 may well be required, but on a modern high flowing head like the 20v is simply not needed!

    Find me any 20v engines of similar spec, one high cr and one low, and the higher cr engines will be making better power every time. Wellys hybrid, my hybrid, Toby's 300bhp ko4.

    I believe Bill is also now running 9.25:1 CR in the Ibiza with 600bhp!

    Times a tuning have changed, but many tuners havnt so keep on pumping old old school advice.

    I didn't say the OPs problem was entirely down to CR at all, I simply asked why such low comp on an engine that doesn't need it? I think it'll be a contributing factor to the lower figures, as his engine is, without question, less efficient than one with a higher Cr. the problem will be as discussed, the lack of pre load on the actuator, but even when that's fixed I'd bet good money that it won't make the power you would hope for having spent so much money due tto an unfortunate choice of spec
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  37. #36
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    Hi Prawny ..not aimed at you, I meant in general as you well know.... It just sounded like you said the root of the problem may have been the lower CR of the S3..As the OP then thought he had made a mistake keeping the S3 CRs ... post #5

    No Malice intended mate...

  38. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbuggy View Post
    Dave, gutted that you're not happy. Especially with the amount of work you've put in.


    Sorry to ask but are you running a clipped wheel on yours and what where the maf readings on your 322 run if you know?
    Dan, unclipped wheel, ported wastegate... The top G/s was 256

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    OP: As suggested correctly by slappy, actuator preload is the key, so you may have been the cause of your issues, BUT, Jabba should also have done more to sort this.. It would be obvious... I find these, so no excuse why they cant.

    Dave: As dan's asked I am intrigued to what airflows yours does. I have done many hybrids.. and they are sensitive to their surroundings and supporting mods. Winding up the boost is not the answer, they just get too hot. If you have a log of its airflow that might shed some light onto whats occuring. And for the record, Compression Ratio is significant......

    EDIT: just seen you post 256g/s..... is that a real number or just divide .8 as its very close to 320bhp so on the money..
    Do you run water meth? I dont remember. I say this as cars which have run wmi, and hybrids always have made more power from less boost (= less heat)
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  40. #39
    Prawn's Avatar
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    S'ok Dave *group hug*I was more shocked, because if you read again the OP hadn't retained the standard s3 CR, he's lowered it by 0.5, and in a world where cars with 9.5:1 are making significantly more power than cars at 9:1, hearing that the car in question runs just 8.5:1 seems like backwards progression as a result of tuning dinosaurs refusing to move with the times
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  41. #40
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    Dave,

    For reference I was getting 266grams which if you took the .8 is another 12bhp but whether relates to real world bhp is another matter. I would suggest you do a run without an air filter on to see if you can get better flow, be careful mind :-) it might be the filter is restrictive my first filter choked my turbo.

    On a side note, the fact you got 322bhp on a non clipped wheel just goes to show clipping isn't need. In the days before xs manifolds, Welly coolers and 3"dp etc then they where needed.

 

 
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