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  1. #41
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    21psi actuator??? there yah problem LOL (that and the drip feeding of the build spec lol ;P)

    Seriously dude... get it booked in to Bills or something... please don't take offence but I really think you are a little out of your depth here and need someone with the experience of these builds to look the car over...

    Not trying to appear biased or in any way reflect on Niki at R-Tech but Bill would be the better choice in the context of your issues... no disrespect to Niki at all (he is a good friend and I have the upmost respect for his capabilities and the work he does)

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  3. #42
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    Niki prefers playing with computers rather than spanners anyway

    Take it to Bill, he's about the only person in the entire country with the skills and equipment to put it right without fobbing you off and charging you for random crap you don't need or want.
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  4. #43
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    21 psi... Oh boy that's strong. Poor old n75/ecu is going to struggle to control that, it's going to be more an on/off switch than a progressive boost control.

  5. #44
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    Haha guys you have frazzled me! Al call bill
    The reason why I got 21psi is coz the last actuator was a 6-12 psi adjustable and it was made for the gt28, I thought it was struggling and turbo techincs said get an actuator that is as close to the top boost pressure. I also replaced the bov for same reason. I have still got all the springs for both actuators if they need to be changed!
    Don't worry al ring bill before!
    R.tech remapped my car originally and it was boosting 18psi that nackered that up in no time, that's why i ended up doing all this lol
    Cheers

  6. #45
    STEALTHQUATTRO's Avatar
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    Spoke to bill gona change wastegate actuator spring to 1 bar and see how we go, turbo dynamics wrongly informed me on the pressure of the wastegate spring! If no change straight to bills for diagnosis!
    Al get the spec sorted in future it's easy to forget stuff with all that has changed!
    Cheers lads

  7. #46
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    Hi guys is the ecu mapped to the wastegate size? Am worried if I get a 1 bar one it'l be stronger than the original one so I don't want to throw it out!
    Or will it just be a lower pressure spring so the ecu to be able to control it?
    What should the highest boost be for gt2871?
    Thanks aaron

  8. #47
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Lest of your problems I would think lol... a 1bar actuator is 14psi mate... it will be fine... lets focus on getting the hardware right and all working as it should then worry about the mapping...

    What you could also do is once you have fitted the 1bar actuator (did Bill explain pre-load to you?) you could try running the car with the N75 electrically unplugged... this should run around 15psi boost depending on how well you setup the pre-load... any more than that and you may have overdone it a bit...

    See if the car drives better like that...

    I suspect part of the issue you are having is the 21psi actuator... this is most likely the cause of the huge spike and the ecu is going into limp...

    With the right mods then you could be running at 1.6 to 1.8 bar...

    <tuffty/>
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  9. #48
    STEALTHQUATTRO's Avatar
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    No sorry wat is pre load? I ran it unplugged tonight it ran at 17.7psi it did seem to hold the boost tho,
    Ta

  10. #49
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    if its running 17psi unplugged then you either have no pre-load at all or the actuator isn't a 21psi one...

    Pre-load is when you use the spring pressure of the actuator to hold the wastegate shut... when you fit the actuator arm over the wastegate lever you tighten the rod a bit so that the spring keeps the wastegate shut... if preload isn't enough then you get slow spool and it won't hold boost at high revs... too much preload then you get boost spikes, boost creep and lack of control...



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  11. #50
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    I defo dint have as much pre-load as that!so that'll be the 17psi!
    when I put the actuator on I gave it a few turns so I had to push it over a few mm so I thought it was tight enough to keep it shut,
    I have just looked at the spring set it's 1.5bar in the actuator so if a take that out and put 1bar and try that!
    The actuator Is from jepan
    manufacturer Kinugawa quite new it's only £60 but build seems good!
    Have a look:
    Kinugawa Adjustable Turbo Wastegate Actuator Garrett GT2871R A/R.60 w/ 5 Spring | eBay
    Have herd owt bout them, am bit jeveus of foren gear! Lol
    Last edited by <tuffty/>; 5th September 2012 at 08:47.

  12. #51
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    hi guys, i replaced the 1.5 bar wastegate actuator spring for a 1.0 bar, i sorted the pre-load as to the vid from tuffty.
    i have not changed the 21psi bov spring but i think this is ok?
    first run out it held in second all the way but all went wrong after.
    i hsve done some more logs for you to look at.
    thanks:

    http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/...o/70926a56.png
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #52
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Looks like around 4.5k you have all the boost again and its hitting limp mode....

    Is this an actuator only run? have you electrically disconnected the the N75 yet and tried with that?

    Its fairly apparent that you are having a boost problem of some description and currently it looks like its over boosting... no need to change the spring in your DV as yet... (which one have you got as you keep referring to it as a BOV when its a recirculating valve)

    Unplug the N75 and do some runs... need to make sure its working on a smaller amount of boost first to eliminate other hardware problems and running actuator pressure will help...

    If the car runs fine on lower boost pressure then the issue appears to be boost related and that will help to narrow down the things that could potentially be causing this...

    Just so I understand your setup, you are using the N75 for boost control through the map and not using an EBC or anything to try and get more boost than it was mapped for...

    As long as the N75 is switch off (electrically disconnected but still plumbed in correctly), the actuator has a 1bar spring and correctly adjusted preload, you have an airtight charge system with no leaks then you should see 1bar of boost (maybe a tad more) and have no limp mode...

    <tuffty/>
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  14. #53
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    Hi no this is a full run with everything pluged in.
    The boost system is purly on n75, av only got a blitz boost controller to monitor boost, I did try using it as a boost controller years ago but ecu did't like it! So I took the boost solenoid out.
    It's re-circulating due to intake bring a maf!
    Al do some more logs for you tonight with n75 in- plugged!
    I have cleaned the mag and map sensor just in case but it dint make any difference
    We will get there! Lol

  15. #54
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    hi guys, right n75 unplugged! test run!
    the boost monitor said it only boosted upto 12.7psi? the actuator did have a good 3-4mm of pre-load, surly this was enough?
    here is the log anyhow:

    http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/...o/02ebe649.png

  16. #55
    RIP S3dave

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    0.8-0.9bar boost so you now have a base line...
    However... boost request is 1.2bar... and if this was mapped for a std actuator, its over double the expected baseline boost... so would overshoot straight into limp mode, presuming the limits of deviation have'nt been max'd..

    What actuator psi was it originally mapped for.. and was it mapped for full n75 control?

    What maf size is on the car now? 80mm? Was it scaled in software do you know?
    The ecu looks to be running a TT225 file in there, so I would presume its also got retrofitted egt sensor also, and the above questions re maf scaling are dealt with by it being flashed as a TT225...
    Last edited by badger5; 11th September 2012 at 09:41.
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  17. #56
    STEALTHQUATTRO's Avatar
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    It was the STD actuator for a gt28, it was adjudtable one, I'm really not sure will mike at jabba know? And yes it was mapped for full n75 control, and the egt was mapped in ad I fitted it into the loom, the mad is off an s3 because mine was the small one!
    I presumed it was scaled properly.

  18. #57
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    I assume the car feels drivable on actuator pressure (other than slightly under powered) and the 'issues' have subsided a bit?

    <tuffty/>
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  19. #58
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    Yea tuffty! It felt more powerfully threw the rev range because it held the 12.7psi, rather than dumping it!
    I don't understand what causes the cylinder 2 timing to retard!!!?!
    Well odd!

  20. #59
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by STEALTHQUATTRO View Post
    It was the STD actuator for a gt28, it was adjudtable one, I'm really not sure will mike at jabba know? And yes it was mapped for full n75 control, and the egt was mapped in ad I fitted it into the loom, the mad is off an s3 because mine was the small one!
    I presumed it was scaled properly.
    he's flashed a TT225 file into your ecu... presuming you still have you original ecu... so maf scaling is done by factory, not him.
    if the previous actuator was different psi his mapping was for that not what you have now.. on n75 control

    boost deviation code? have you seen that?

    swap coil and plug from 2 to 4 and see if the timing pull moves with it..

    its not high pull so as it stands I would'nt worry much, but with more boost, will come more timing pull more than likely..
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  21. #60
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    It's still the original ecu in the car, he must of done something with mapping the new maf because it needed to be changed to the s3 bigger type.
    No I haven't, what is boost deviation code?
    Al swap the coil pack and do another run, also chat to mike at jabba and let you know. Thanks ;-)

  22. #61
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    I have had a look and I think I have found the actuator that was on the turbo: it's an ATP actuator 12-14psi with adjustable rod end:

    Wastegate Actuator, High Pressure, 12-14 PSI, upgrade for GT28R : atpturbo.com

    It's the only actuator that is got the gr28rs, with double kinked rod and adjustable so it must be it.
    Hope this helps

  23. #62
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    airflow seems low to me for 12psi on a big garrett....

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  24. #63
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    hi guys i changed the coil packs round but it had no affect.
    am posting 3x log runs
    these logs are in order of 1st,2nd and 3rd WOT from the car started up.
    really interesting, the first and second run held the boost upto the red line! chucked me back into my seat!
    but on the 3rd run it dumped the boost, back to normal!
    i know i have a little intermitant EGT fault that pop's up now and again but even when it does not send a fault code it still dumps the boost.
    like i said it seems to hold boost fab when am WOT for the first time.

    http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/...o/87f9e533.png

  25. #64
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    Yeah... I'd stop there if I were you as you are pulling 10's at one point... as Bill pointed out earlier now that you have boost your timing pull is dangerously high... the ECU can only pull a max of 12 degrees out...

    Make the engine safe and unplug the N75 again... your throttle is still closing from 4.5k ish on the runs you had boost which looks to me like something is off and the ECU is controlling load via throttle angle as it would most likely be trying to dump the boost using the N249 and DV at that point....

    I would say you still have issues... no idea what they are but you have next to no boost control for whatever reason and the ECU is trying to reign it in using all the methods it can...

    Have you got the N75 plumbed in correctly? boost in the bottom, long one in to the TIP and the one opposite the long one to the actuator?

    There is clearly some issue here and it is the runaway boost... unplugging the N75 makes the car run as it should albeit it with less power so its potentially something to do with the N75 or the control of it...

    If it left Jabba fine then maybe its something you have done since... if the N75 is plumbed in the wrong way round then this could explain it...

    <tuffty/>
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  26. #65
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    Anything to do with a bad throttle body? he seems to have more airflow on partial...when on 100% it dies?....just a thought

  27. #66
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    throttle closing is ecu intervention... Its not in tune with actuator

    timing pull as said is too high which itself will pull back settings.

    you have choice of return to jabba to make good the map to the current actuator or look elsewhere for another vag tuner.

    assuming, you have n75 correctly plumbed in (normal valve, not a "race" thing) and its trying to control boost, the hardware is not matching the software.. and the boost you wish to run is not supported by suitable ign timing given the high CF being logged. The hotter it gets the worse they will go... your logs was 8sec,10sec,10sec runs only and it already got hot and unhappy with timing pull.

    what boost do you see on your gauge..
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  28. #67
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Stealthquattro: This thread is now just going round in circles. You need to take the car to someone that knows what they're doing and have them look at it.

    The map is clearly fubar, and thats not something your going to be able to fix yourself, and there may well be other hardware issues at play which cannot be diagnosed via the internet. If you dont take it somewhere, and keep ragging it around in its current state, all thats going to happen is your going to break something expensive.

    Unplug the N75, and leave it unplugged, until you get to a tuner.

    Drive the car like a Gran.

    Phone Bill or Nick or someone else that actually has a clue and get it booked in to get it sorted.

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  29. #68
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    Yea Aragorn I know it'd come to this, al ring bill and see what a tune would cost, am not to happy with jabba at mo thre not following up my requests!
    Al unplug the n75 and yea it's piped up right as I remember " straight to gate" from intake pipe straight up to wastegate!
    Na it's not a gay j n75! Just STD

  30. #69
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    Cheers for all the help guys, spoke to bill and am gona get it down to him at some point when av got the cash!!
    2 last q's: What's the max hp I can tune this ecu too?
    Jabba reconed 400hp after that it starts flaiking out!
    Would you agree?
    And what's ya thought to the emerald ecu?

  31. #70
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    400bhp my arse.......... unless on muchos happy dyno

    flat out, and uber hot, 370-380bhp max'd on 0,6x hotside

    emerald is standalone, wont support dbw, what you have is plenty capable for your spec of hardware
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  32. #71
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    I think he's talking about the capabilities of the standard ECU Bill, not so much his current hardware.

    there used to be a belief that the standard ECU couldn't be used to tune cars over a given power level, but to be honest I think that's all crap.

    I'm pretty sure Bill tuned a Big turbo leon to around 460bhp on the stock ECU, and I know R-tech tuned an EFR Leon to around 440bhp on the stock ECU. Christ, Wellys car has almost nothing plugged in or working and his pre-historic ecu is working fine at 450bhp!

    With bigger turbo'd I see no reason why the ECU couldn't be tuned to run 500bhp+
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  33. #72
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    Av got dyno for 362bhp not sure if that is at fly or wheels!
    So is this wrong?
    So is there no gain swapping small port to large port?
    Was thinking of changing turbo to gt3071 so no point?
    Just want to know my upgrading options lol
    Thanks

  34. #73
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    Go large port, go GT3071 and all will be good in the world... you would need a larger MAF housing so an S4 or RS4 one and as said, the std ECU is fine for 500+hp

    If going GT3071 I would be looking at getting the valve gear done... Have a read of my build thread if you need any ideas...

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  35. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by STEALTHQUATTRO View Post
    Av got dyno for 362bhp not sure if that is at fly or wheels!
    So is this wrong?
    So is there no gain swapping small port to large port?
    Was thinking of changing turbo to gt3071 so no point?
    Just want to know my upgrading options lol
    Thanks
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  36. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    I think he's talking about the capabilities of the standard ECU Bill, not so much his current hardware.

    there used to be a belief that the standard ECU couldn't be used to tune cars over a given power level, but to be honest I think that's all crap.

    I'm pretty sure Bill tuned a Big turbo leon to around 460bhp on the stock ECU, and I know R-tech tuned an EFR Leon to around 440bhp on the stock ECU. Christ, Wellys car has almost nothing plugged in or working and his pre-historic ecu is working fine at 450bhp!

    With bigger turbo'd I see no reason why the ECU couldn't be tuned to run 500bhp+
    We have done an LCR which made a smidge over 500bhp on leon cupra ecu
    Its possible... However, as I know full well, bosch me7 when max'd out on many sensors, MAP, MAF, forcing it to run in open loop boost control etc etc can be a fight.. and standalone, such as the S60 DTA I run on badgerwagen is soooo much better to map with. It does what you tell it, no quibbles, no nanny interventions... etc etc
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  37. #76
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    Oh lovely to hear! Av got me triple groove supertech valves and largeport head and am gona aventually get the titanium retainers too but there well expensive!
    Do I need new litters, cams and hydraulics?
    It seems to me that the head cost more then owt els!
    Cheers

  38. #77
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STEALTHQUATTRO View Post
    Oh lovely to hear! Av got me triple groove supertech valves and largeport head and am gona aventually get the titanium retainers too but there well expensive!
    Do I need new litters, cams and hydraulics?
    It seems to me that the head cost more then owt els!
    Cheers
    Titanium retainers should be used with the single groove valves... I believe there are issues using them with triple groove valves..

    I run supertech single groove valves (inconel exahusts) with supertech springs and titanium retainers... I use std lifters (as does Bill in his race engine)... you don't need cams but I would buy a full valve/spring setup over cams if budget is a concern... get the valve guides checked as no doubt the exhaust guides will need replacing..

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  39. #78
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by STEALTHQUATTRO View Post
    Oh lovely to hear! Av got me triple groove supertech valves and largeport head and am gona aventually get the titanium retainers too but there well expensive!
    Do I need new litters, cams and hydraulics?
    It seems to me that the head cost more then owt els!
    Cheers
    stainless inlet and inconel exhaust?
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  40. #79
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    After research I thought the problem was supertech single groove valves dropping and triple groove being ok, hence why I got triple groove. Am I wrong?
    There stainless valves because I wasnt expecting to exceed the red line.
    Av got some supertech valve guided too but they need reaming in!

  41. #80
    RIP S3dave

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    stainless exhaust valves............ not my choice.. especially for turbo motor.. Inconel is what is the normal choice for exhaust valves.. Stainless inlets

    The issue, if there ever was a real issue (as opposed build issue which got blown out of proportion on tinterweb by someone) was mixing triple grooved (ie std) collets and supertech springs and retainers.. Some angular difference between them was muted but I have never seen myself.

    I spec supertech valves in triple groove if on oe springs and single groove when mated to the spring retainer kit.. and use the full monty on BT where the motor likes to rev... The max I will push a stock valve train is 7800rpm... and valves if being considered for replacement I will always use inconel exhaust valves and stainless inlets..

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