s3gazz's slow engine build

I think everyone is pretty stoked for Gaz to have got those figures, after all he has put ****** bucket loads of time, energy, enthusiasm and not a little bit of cash into his build. There is clearly something slightly amiss though, would it be better to say nothing at all and let Gaz run around with a car that's got a problem for the sake of not risking offending anyone?
Don't think most people care who mapped it but when a slightly freaky result turns up and there are some data inconsistencies and a dodgy looking actuator people are always going to ask a question. Don't think it matters where its mapped for those questions to be asked either. Big up to Gaz for an awesome build no one is trying to take anything away from him.
 
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I'm sorry but neither I nor gaz see them as negative comments. I felt they were questions aimed at helping him get to his goal. Ie ride height issues will be the same whatever dyno and whatever tuner he chose hence the question. Fyi rick does play that game just not in here... ;-) . All comments thus far are based upon what gaz has said and I can see people just try ing yi help. Any more off topic and it will have to he dealt with accordingly. :-D
 
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I am also glad rick doesnt bother with the disrespect on forums and its for that very reason he is my number 1 choice.

EDITED: so as not to contribute to this childish discrediting of tuners.
 
Last edited:
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Ok ok moving on guys.

BIll as my car stands the front wheels are almost under the side panels lol niki said to me it has to be standered high to go on his dyno pal and was only going to take it there as no one believes rick has mapped it to the figures he got from my car and what on the dyno print out.

this is how it's gone I bought a maf from ECP and never tested g/s now I have there low getting a new one today see if any different.
I had no preload on my actuater and so I unplugged the n75 and tried the car only getting 6 psi so I then added preload and now all gravy but somewhere from been mapped to getting home somate happened I don't have a clue what.
the actuater at the min I carnt add anymore pre load at all my change to a 15psi actuater if the wastgate is been blown open then the actuater is the problem and will all be solved plus a tweak for the tip been sealed.

i will be going to r-teck to see what happens on nikis dyno and then all will be revealed to what my car makes after ricks great tuning no dyno the same so just to close all suspicions .
 
badger5 said:
so it was a 6psi actuator..
15psi one will be much better holding boost...
Click to expand...


It is a 12psi actuator, always has been!.. It ran 11psi on n75 DC0 with Rick whilst he was mapping it. Which he was happy with..

Then a some stage as I explained to Gaz the nut on the end possibly had come loose and the preload backed off and even more likely the wastegate open.. It wasn't boosting till gone 4500rpm which as I told Gaz many a time, ment the wastegate wasn't closed fully, probably due to the nut coming loose..

Then when the nut was done back up as I asked the boost came back, and it was fine.. I can only think now it has been over preloaded if the screw thread has run out..

It happen to Prawn, as he called me from the side of the motorway saying exactly the same thing many moons ago..

I don't think a 15psi actuator will make any difference to Gaz as it's already at what I feel is the max of the setup.. But it is always good to test these things and maybe just maybe a little more can be gotten from this Turbo and setup..
 
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Thx dan.

so ill undo the actuater then dan and see what happens but still from the airflow I'm getting carnt see 50bhp added that's why I'm still convinced the wastgate or actuater lol
 
Gaz i asked you yesterday figures aside, what it felt like on the road, you know real world, and you said "very strong and made you smile...."

Surley thats all that matters, you dont have to prove anything ....:icon_thumright:

Prawn on your comments about not believing it made that power, and your disection of it ,,,that is probably why you are in construction and not a tuner....:icon_thumright:
 
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Would the preload he has now added, the maximum he can get, be now robbing him of travel and flapper angle?
So prob better to change for a stiffer one to begin with without the sacrifice of travel.

There is a good document floating around from the head of development at borgwarner that states an optimum wastegate flapper angle of 50degrees for max flow.
Not that gazz can set that now with the turbo on
 
Prawn said:
Ok, you see constructive help as negative?

Say Gaz is right, and the actuator was only holding 6psi. Why wasn't this picked up in the first few minutes of mapping? most mappers will setup base fuelling and things with the N75 unplugged and running on actuator pressure. Alarm bells ringing that this wasn't picked up straight away.

Also, Gaz states that the car feels the same to drive as when he picked it up, apparently with 352bhp. but logs show less than 300bhp's worth of air? How strange.... Logs also show it making the same 18psi at peak power that it made on the 352bhp dyno run, apparently. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think it's safe to say that we're all gutted for gaz, but somewhere along the line he's getting screwed, and instead of tip toeing around trying to be nice, why not just get to the bottom of it?

For what it's worth, I don't believe it ever made 352bhp, the graph looks wrong and the correlation between wheel horse power and crank horse power doesn't add up AT ALL.

I think the car still has issues, and once sorted, there will be a lot more to come from it, and more smiles for Gaz.

I just hope he doesn't waste too much more money trying to get to that end result.
Click to expand...

Lets talk facts.

The car was initally mapped with a bad MAF, it only read 222grams.. No matter how much was put through it..

A new Maf was ordered and fitted and it instantly went up to over 250grams at a flat 18psi.... It peaked if I remember correctly on the dyno at near 265grams

The car was fully checked and tested before it was run, and it was running 11psi on actuator

There were issues with the turbo Tip fitment, but this wasn't my fault, but the fact Gaz is actually running a chinese copy turbo that he asked me to make into a Hybrid, I did explain that I was a little wary but believed if it was done properly then it could be as good as an original. Gaz knew this, I knew this, and so the fact its made as much as the other hybrids just goes to show that you shouldn't always judge a book by its cover.

I spent numerous hours on the phone to Rick whilst he was mapping it to get feedback etc. Mainly as I wanted, as I set out to do , to produce a non surging, good mid range hybrid turbo.. This , if the figures are to believed is exactly what has happened.

I also spent many a hour texting with Gaz to get this actuator issue sorted... I was worried that as he had a copy turbine housing , and even though we had taken measures to stop the bush from moving, maybe just maybe that had happened again.. But no the actuator was at fault, either the loose nut or something else..

I will say what is posted and what the actual events are, don't quite match up and thus un informed opinions are being made with out the full facts... and to this I think praise should go to Gaz and to Rick and Gaz should take the car to R-tech or Bills and get an independant Dyno run and then comparisons can be made in fairness...

with out a little drama though, forums wont be worth reading.....:)
 
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s3dave said:
Gaz i asked you yesterday figures aside, what it felt like on the road, you know real world, and you said "very strong and made you smile...."

Surley thats all that matters, you dont have to prove anything ....:icon_thumright:

Prawn on your comments about not believing it made that power, and your disection of it ,,,that is probably why you are in construction and not a tuner....:icon_thumright:
Click to expand...

Quite possibly Dave, but I think deep down, we all know I'm probably right....

yes - how it feels on the road is the most important thing, but after god knows how long of ~200bhp, do we really think Gaz is going to feel the difference between 300 and 350? of course it'll feel fast as feck.

Nobody is trying to shoot down the claims, but something really doesn't add up, air flow is poor, and it's pulling 7's on the timing.

As for this clique, that one works both ways. From the other side of the fence, on which I'm quite obviously sat, it feels exactly the same. there seems to be some kind of anti-establishment clique, determined to jump on anyone offering constructive criticism and shoot it down as negative.

Sure, everyones great, good luck to you. Who needs advice anyway? it's all on google....

Gaz: the internet seems to tell me that I don't like you, although I'm not sure where it got that idea from. I hope you sort it mate, you ****** well deserve it.
 
Nobody is trying to shoot down the claims, but something really doesn't add up, air flow is poor, and it's pulling 7's on the timing.


Simple answer to that. if the MAf is knackered then the Load value the ecu is seeing will be out and thus on the timing map which is Load V rpm will also be wrong, lower Maf reading = Lower Load calculation which will mean the wrong timing cell is used, which will be higher than it should be...
 
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beachbuggy said:
Lets talk facts.

The car was initally mapped with a bad MAF, it only read 222grams.. No matter how much was put through it..

A new Maf was ordered and fitted and it instantly went up to over 250grams at a flat 18psi.... It peaked if I remember correctly on the dyno at near 265grams

The car was fully checked and tested before it was run, and it was running 11psi on actuator

There were issues with the turbo Tip fitment, but this wasn't my fault, but the fact Gaz is actually running a chinese copy turbo that he asked me to make into a Hybrid, I did explain that I was a little wary but believed if it was done properly then it could be as good as an original. Gaz knew this, I knew this, and so the fact its made as much as the other hybrids just goes to show that you shouldn't always judge a book by its cover.

I spent numerous hours on the phone to Rick whilst he was mapping it to get feedback etc. Mainly as I wanted, as I set out to do , to produce a non surging, good mid range hybrid turbo.. This , if the figures are to believed is exactly what has happened.

I also spent many a hour texting with Gaz to get this actuator issue sorted... I was worried that as he had a copy turbine housing , and even though we had taken measures to stop the bush from moving, maybe just maybe that had happened again.. But no the actuator was at fault, either the loose nut or something else..

I will say what is posted and what the actual events are, don't quite match up and thus un informed opinions are being made with out the full facts... and to this I think praise should go to Gaz and to Rick and Gaz should take the car to R-tech or Bills and get an independant Dyno run and then comparisons can be made in fairness...

with out a little drama though, forums wont be worth reading.....:)
Click to expand...
ahhhhh, some clarity :)
 
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s3gazz said:
Ok ok moving on guys.

BIll as my car stands the front wheels are almost under the side panels lol niki said to me it has to be standered high to go on his dyno pal and was only going to take it there as no one believes rick has mapped it to the figures he got from my car and what on the dyno print out.

this is how it's gone I bought a maf from ECP and never tested g/s now I have there low getting a new one today see if any different.
I had no preload on my actuater and so I unplugged the n75 and tried the car only getting 6 psi so I then added preload and now all gravy but somewhere from been mapped to getting home somate happened I don't have a clue what.
the actuater at the min I carnt add anymore pre load at all my change to a 15psi actuater if the wastgate is been blown open then the actuater is the problem and will all be solved plus a tweak for the tip been sealed.

i will be going to r-teck to see what happens on nikis dyno and then all will be revealed to what my car makes after ricks great tuning no dyno the same so just to close all suspicions .
Click to expand...

No one doubt Rick tuned it, He is a great tuner, i am 100% sure he has, and reading through here i cannot see where anyone has stated he didn't tune it. I think it's the low maf reading v power we are all trying to get to the bottom of for you, so obviously questions get asked. I hope you can sus it, or perhaps rick will come on and say i scaled XYZ to make it work in closed loop or some such whichcraft
 
Picking new maf up at 3am so ill go for a spin and see what happens might just be the maf I carnt say rick will get to the bottom of it no dowt.
i just hope it's not the turbo copy
 
Prawn said:
I blame Scott, it was all a perfectly reasonable discussion before Scott got involved.

It's usually a perfectly reasonable discussion Before Scott gets involved.

A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)

Just sayin....
Click to expand...

Blame me all you what.
But I'm not the only one who feels it. Maybe I'm the only one who's willing to stand up and ask the question why when no one else?

I stand by what I said.
I just wish others was willing to speak out and not just sit back and nod their head at the screen.

Gaz, enjoy the car. You got nothing to prove to anyone.
 
Hi all,

Gaz just nudged me to have a look at this thread. The car was running a peak CF of 3 on 2 cylinders, 1.5 on the other two.

Lambda approx 0.82, Peak injector duty cycle 89.5%

If something has changed since I set it up then things are likely to be different.

Regarding the power figure, I am quite suprised but there were no tricks involved. The dyno used is a Dastek setup in a a full dyno cell. It belongs to Ric Wood - some of you know who he is but for those that don't his credentials include building the engines for the top 228mph GTR's that broke the VMAX record. With the car running 12psi it made 290 on another dyno which is some kind of correlation.

That said, dyno's are a lottery and I fully expect power to be different on a different day on a different dyno. I did not build the engine, port the head, spec the cams, or build the turbo. My job is to get the most out of the car whilst maintaining an acceptable level of reliability. What power the car then produces is largely out of my control.

Thanks, Rick
 
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Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. said:
Hi all,

Gaz just nudged me to have a look at this thread. The car was running a peak CF of 3 on 2 cylinders, 1.5 on the other two.

If something has changed since I set it up then things are likely to be different.

Regarding the power figure, I am quite suprised but there were no tricks involved. The dyno used is a Dastek setup in a a full dyno cell. It belongs to Ric Wood - some of you know who he is but for those that don't his credentials include building the engines for the top 228mph GTR's that broke the VMAX record. With the car running 12psi it made 290 on another dyno which is some kind of correlation.

That said, dyno's are a lottery and I fully expect power to be different on a different day on a different dyno. I did not build the engine, port the head, spec the cams, or build the turbo. My job is to get the most out of the car whilst maintaining an acceptable level of reliability. What power the car then produces is largely out of my control.

Thanks, Rick
Click to expand...

From the horses mouth
 
s3gazz said:
Picking new maf up at 3am so ill go for a spin and see what happens might just be the maf I carnt say rick will get to the bottom of it no dowt.
i just hope it's not the turbo copy
Click to expand...

I asked the question re the logs you asked me what to do on fb... and what you posted, indicates an under reading maf... given the boosts rick posted after mapping it pretty much look as logged on your logs of the weekend. The bit which does'nt correlate as right is the g/s readings, and as Dan has correctly said, will effect where the ecu thinks load is and run higher timing that it ought to (or mapped to originally)

and some DATA to chew on - from logs off gaz compared to results rick posted as peak numbers from dyno when mapped.
1385645_453340008117423_682874440_n.jpg


Dyno
21881d1381483021-s3gazzs-slow-engine-build-gaz-s3-rr-small.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wasn't it peaking at 26psi on the dyno? and 23 psi on the road, which explain the higher torque figures..
 
beachbuggy said:
Wasn't it peaking at 26psi on the dyno? and 23 psi on the road, which explain the higher torque figures..
Click to expand...
I read that also at the time....... 2550mb request in gaz's log.. so wayhay..

hopefully the euro maf is the cause for more timing pull and low g/s
keep hearing more and more folks suffering crappy euro mafs
GSF ones I use, seem ok thus far
 
Unless the same ecu fault that Gaz had before all this started has come back ;-) , then hopefully the MAF is at fault...
 
s3gazz said:
i will be going to r-teck to see what happens on nikis dyno and then all will be revealed to what my car makes after ricks great tuning no dyno the same so just to close all suspicions .
Click to expand...

Good Good. I look fwd to reading the results.
I'm sure Dan will be pleased when the results corroborated. K16/7+7 spec unit I think?

Fingers crossed the ecp maf is the low g/s culprit
 
I'm sure you're all able to play nicely, any more reported posts emanating from this thread and I'll be testing out the 'Thread ban' option.

Thank you.
 
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New maf on and just need to go for a spin or log it now before I go to rick Thursday
 
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These ECP mafs... Without a dyno but with vag com is it possible to check if its duff?
Mines been on a ECP maf for about 2 years...
Looking at the vag come numbers its lost power.
Ive tryed to check what i can but have drawn a blank.
 
Fuel trims can sometimes give you a pointer.

If its underreadding, it'll run lean, resulting in the ECU upping the fuel trim to compensate.
 
Iv tried another ECP one just to see if it was duff and still will only read max of 235 g/s no more so must be ok.

unplugged the actuater again and hey presto only 6 psi after upping the preload
 
Anyone got a part number for a wideband maf as they might of have me a narrow band one lol
 
ECP/GSF part numbers for the generic Bosch part are differnt to OE... will have a label on the housing and starts with 021 from memory..

IIRC a narrow band MAF element running on a wideband ECU over reads... have seen this on the dyno before but Bill could confirm this...

NB vs WB maf scaling in the maps...
maf_comp_006.jpg


<tuffty/>
 
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yeh your right, the narrowband scale is shorter, so it would output more volts for the same airflow, which would show up as a higher reading.
 
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