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  1. #1
    feck_on_a_stick's Avatar
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    Has my car been mapped?

    I've had my S3 2 months now and looking to get the ECU sent off to get mapped as there's nowhere local I'd want to take it.

    I've thought that this S3 was a bit stronger than another S3 that I'd driven and wondered if it had been mapped previously. It's def not a stage 1 but I've had a friend who has a 225 TT and another who has a modified Toledo 1.8T and both also think it pulls very hard.

    One of them has VAGCOM so we went out the other night and did a couple of quick tests and I was wondering if one of you lovely people would be able to help me decifer the results?

    I'd read that bhp can be measured by looking at peak airflow but I don't think that was logged.........or was it? I'm pretty new to this...sorry

    The car is a 2002 BAM engine and seems standard apart from a 007p.

    Edit: I didn't know the best way to show these figures on here. If I can upload the excel doc, can someone let me know? There are more results hidden over to the right of my thread.

    Friday 24 February 2012 22:07:34
    8N0 906 18 BH 1.8L R4/5VT 1
    Group A: '002 Group B: '006 Group C: '115
    Engine RPM Engine Load Ave. Inj. Period Air Mass Flow Engine RPM Engine Load Intake
    TIME TIME TIME
    MARKER STAMP /min % ms g/s STAMP /min % ーC % STAMP /min % mbar mbar
    0.91 1480 69.9 6.8 22.56 0 1440 43.6 13 1.6 0.42 1480 50.4 1020 1030
    2.3 1520 94.7 8.16 29.67 1.41 1480 75.9 13 1.6 1.9 1520 90.2 1290 1140
    3.52 1600 83.5 7.48 28.11 2.72 1560 99.2 12 1.6 3.12 1600 97.7 1150 1230
    4.83 1640 32.3 3.06 8.81 4.03 1640 53.4 11 1.6 4.43 1640 39.1 1020 1100
    6.14 1640 36.8 3.4 12.14 5.34 1640 32.3 11 1.6 5.74 1600 31.6 1020 1040
    7.44 1640 36.1 3.4 11.53 6.54 1640 36.8 12 1.6 7.04 1640 36.8 1020 1040
    8.65 1640 36.1 3.4 11.33 7.84 1640 36.1 12 1.6 8.25 1640 36.1 1020 1040
    10.06 1680 30.1 2.72 9.36 9.17 1640 33.8 13 1.6 9.66 1640 33.8 1020 1030
    11.26 1680 24.8 2.38 7.69 10.46 1680 28.6 13 1.6 10.86 1680 24.1 1020 1030
    12.57 1640 12.8 0 3.81 11.68 1680 17.3 12 1.6 12.17 1680 13.5 1020 1020
    13.87 1600 12 0 3.83 12.97 1640 12 13 1.6 13.47 1640 12 1020 1020
    15.29 1560 25.6 3.06 9.47 14.29 1600 11.3 14 1.6 14.8 1600 11.3 1020 1020
    16.7 1600 48.1 4.42 15 15.69 1560 39.8 15 1.6 16.21 1600 46.6 1020 1020
    17.92 1600 42.9 3.74 12.44 17.1 1600 46.6 14 1.6 17.5 1600 46.6 1020 1040
    19.21 1600 27.1 2.72 8.25 18.41 1600 31.6 13 1.6 18.81 1640 30.1 1020 1040
    20.41 1600 35.3 3.4 12.03 19.61 1600 27.8 13 1.6 20.01 1600 28.6 1020 1030
    21.63 1600 41.4 3.74 12.94 20.83 1600 41.4 14 1.6 21.23 1600 41.4 1020 1030
    1 23.04 1600 39.8 3.74 12.44 22.14 1600 40.6 13 1.6 22.64 1600 40.6 1020 1040
    24.35 1600 42.1 3.74 13.39 23.55 1600 41.4 13 1.6 23.95 1600 42.1 1020 1040
    25.66 1600 41.4 3.74 12.61 24.84 1600 42.1 13 1.6 25.26 1600 42.1 1020 1040
    26.96 1600 39.1 3.74 11.89 26.14 1600 39.8 13 1.6 26.56 1600 38.3 1020 1040
    28.36 1600 48.1 4.42 16.14 27.47 1600 39.1 13 1.6 27.96 1600 39.1 1020 1040
    29.67 1600 60.2 5.44 17.67 28.76 1600 56.4 13 1.6 29.26 1600 60.9 1020 1060
    30.89 1600 51.9 4.42 15.75 30.07 1600 53.4 12 1.6 30.47 1600 51.9 1020 1070
    32.07 1600 51.9 4.76 15.86 31.29 1600 52.6 12 0 31.67 1600 52.6 1020 1060
    33.29 1600 73.7 7.14 28.11 32.49 1600 50.4 12 0 32.89 1600 50.4 1020 1050
    34.6 1680 100 8.5 32.47 33.69 1600 86.5 12 0 34.2 1640 95.5 1570 1190
    35.82 1720 92.5 7.48 29.47 35 1680 103.8 11 0 35.4 1720 106.8 1590 1290
    37.11 1640 13.5 0 2.67 36.31 1680 29.3 9 0 36.71 1680 14.3 1020 1100
    38.41 1120 21.1 2.04 4.97 37.61 1440 12.8 11 0 38.01 1160 24.8 1020 1030
    39.63 1000 17.3 1.7 3.33 38.83 1080 19.5 12 0 39.23 1000 18 1020 1020
    2 40.94 1120 12 1.36 2.64 40.05 1000 15 12 0 40.44 1040 12.8 1020 1020
    42.34 840 18.8 2.04 3.39 41.45 1000 12.8 13 0 41.83 880 15.8 1020 1010
    43.64 840 20.3 2.04 3.19 42.74 840 19.5 14 0 43.14 800 18.8 1020 1010
    44.86 840 19.5 2.04 3.17 44.06 840 19.5 14 0 44.46 840 19.5 1020 1010
    46.06 840 19.5 2.04 3.19 45.26 840 19.5 14 0 45.66 800 19.5 1020 1010
    47.27 800 20.3 2.04 3.5 46.46 800 19.5 14 0 46.86 800 19.5 1020 1010
    48.49 1320 65.4 6.12 16.64 47.67 840 27.8 14 0 48.07 1120 59.4 1020 1010
    49.78 2480 84.2 7.14 42.06 48.98 1680 69.9 14 0 49.38 2040 77.4 1180 1110
    51 4680 162.4 12.92 148 50.2 3040 121.1 12 0 50.6 3760 157.9 1860 1710
    52.31 4200 139.8 12.92 134.19 51.4 5600 181.2 11 0 51.82 6280 118.8 1020 1770
    53.51 5760 188.7 15.98 205.86 52.71 4760 191.7 11 0 53.11 5280 191.7 2330 2130
    54.92 4600 191.7 18.36 186.14 53.93 6160 172.9 12 0 54.42 4680 128.6 2340 1330
    56.13 5320 191.7 16.32 197.53 55.32 4840 191.7 14 0 55.72 5080 191.7 2340 2170
    57.33 5920 176.7 15.3 203.86 56.53 5520 191.7 15 0 56.93 5720 180.5 2250 2000
    58.55 6280 81.2 7.48 84.97 57.73 6080 172.2 18 0 58.15 6280 160.2 1940 1880
    59.85 5160 185.7 15.64 184.11 59.05 4960 182 18 0 59.45 5040 191.7 2220 2100
    61.06 5480 182.7 15.64 192.58 60.25 5280 185 21 0 60.65 5360 182 2220 2060
    62.47 5800 178.9 15.98 200.28 61.56 5600 181.2 22 0 61.96 5680 182.7 2220 2000
    63.67 6040 173.7 17 200.44 62.87 5880 180.5 24 0 63.27 6000 177.4 2140 1970
    64.98 4960 153.4 15.98 169.22 64.07 6120 166.2 25 0 64.49 6360 74.4 1020 1900
    66.18 5080 189.5 16.32 181.11 65.38 5000 191.7 25 0 65.78 5040 190.2 2190 2090
    67.4 5240 188.7 15.98 187.14 66.58 5160 185.7 26 0 66.98 5200 189.5 2190 2050
    68.6 5400 185.7 16.32 190.28 67.8 5320 186.5 27 0 68.2 5360 187.2 2190 2050
    69.81 5520 186.5 18.36 198.06 69 5440 188.7 27 0 69.4 5480 188 2190 2080
    71.01 5640 185 18.36 197.72 70.21 5560 185 27 0 70.61 5600 187.2 2150 2050
    72.21 5800 182.7 17.68 203.86 71.41 5680 181.2 28 0 71.83 5760 186.5 2130 2080
    73.62 4840 124.8 13.26 134.89 72.63 5840 182.7 29 1.6 73.14 5800 64.7 1020 2200
    75.03 4760 12 1.36 3.97 74.04 4840 191.7 27 1.6 74.55 4840 63.9 1020 2060
    76.32 4360 12 0 10.03 75.44 4640 12 23 1.6 75.94 4480 12 1020 1070
    77.55 4000 12 0 9.78 76.74 4240 11.3 23 1.6 77.14 4120 12 1020 1060
    78.96 3720 12 0 9.03 77.95 3880 12 22 1.6 78.45 3760 12 1020 1060
    80.26 3440 12.8 0 8.86 79.36 3640 12 21 1.6 79.76 3560 12 1020 1060
    81.47 3160 12.8 0 7.69 80.66 3320 12.8 21 1.6 81.06 3280 12.8 1020 1050
    82.77 2800 12.8 0 7.08 81.87 3040 12.8 21 1.6 82.37 2880 12.8 1020 1040
    83.99 1600 12.8 1.36 4.11 83.17 2640 12.8 21 1.6 83.57 2120 12.8 1020 1040
    85.19 1120 15.8 1.7 3.81 84.37 1360 12 21 1.6 84.79 1240 13.5 1020 1020
    86.48 880 18.8 2.04 3.28 85.59 1040 16.5 21 1.6 86 960 16.5 1020 1020
    87.79 840 19.5 2.04 3.33 86.9 840 20.3 21 1.6 87.39 840 19.5 1020 1010
    89.2 840 20.3 2.04 3.28 88.31 840 20.3 20 1.6 88.72 840 19.5 1020 1010
    90.42 840 19.5 2.04 3.19 89.6 800 19.5 20 0 90 840 19.5 1020 1010
    91.71 840 20.3 2.04 3.36 90.82 840 19.5 20 0 91.22 800 18.8 1020 1010
    93.02 1560 14.3 1.7 3.33 92.13 800 19.5 20 0 92.62 1600 20.3 1020 1010
    94.34 1520 28.6 2.72 8 93.42 1560 17.3 19 0 93.94 1520 28.6 1020 1010
    3 95.54 1520 13.5 1.36 3.36 94.75 1520 24.8 19 0 95.15 1520 21.8 1020 1020
    96.85 1520 31.6 3.06 9.39 95.95 1520 14.3 18 0 96.35 1520 26.3 1020 1010
    98.05 1560 78.2 7.48 25.61 97.25 1560 31.6 18 0 97.66 1520 30.8 1020 1020
    99.26 1760 100 8.84 35.94 98.46 1640 85 18 0 98.86 1680 94 1700 1170
    100.57 2000 128.6 10.88 53.17 99.68 1800 107.5 17 0 100.18 1920 117.3 2080 1370
    101.87 2320 162.4 13.6 75.61 100.97 2080 138.3 15 0 101.39 2200 149.6 2330 1610
    103.09 2640 191.7 16.32 108.86 102.29 2400 172.9 15 0 102.69 2520 189.5 2450 2010
    104.4 3120 191.7 19.72 141.17 103.5 2760 191.7 15 0 103.9 2920 191.7 2390 2500
    105.61 3560 191.7 18.36 147.06 104.8 3280 191.7 15 0 105.2 3400 191.7 2350 2420
    106.91 4040 191.7 17.68 164.44 106.11 3760 191.7 16 0 106.51 3920 191.7 2320 2370
    108.13 4480 191.7 17 173.56 107.31 4200 191.7 18 0 107.73 4320 191.7 2290 2300
    109.33 4880 191.7 17.68 180.36 108.53 4600 191.7 20 0 108.93 4720 191.7 2250 2200
    110.64 5240 190.2 17.68 190.22 109.84 5000 191 21 0 110.24 5120 188.7 2250 2090
    111.95 5600 184.2 17 198.06 111.15 5400 185.7 24 0 111.53 5480 182.7 2230 2040
    113.24 5880 178.2 17.34 203.86 112.46 5720 184.2 26 0 112.84 5800 183.5 2220 2030
    114.46 5080 12 1.7 7.83 113.64 6000 181.2 27 0 114.06 5960 94.7 1020 1950
    4 115.66 4600 12 0 10.67 114.86 4720 12 24 0 115.26 4640 12 1020 1090
    116.97 4480 12 0 10.89 116.06 4560 12 23 0 116.48 4520 12 1020 1050
    118.28 4280 12 0 10.5 117.37 4440 12 23 0 117.77 4360 12 1020 1050
    119.48 4000 12 0 9.75 118.68 4200 12 22 1.6 119.08 4120 12 1020 1050
    120.7 3760 12 0 9.42 119.88 3920 12 22 1.6 120.28 3840 12 1020 1060
    121.9 3600 12 0 8.72 121.1 3680 12 21 1.6 121.5 3640 12 1020 1050
    123.2 3480 12.8 0 8.92 122.3 3600 12 21 1.6 122.7 3560 12 1020 1050
    124.51 3360 12.8 0 8.28 123.61 3440 12.8 21 1.6 124.11 3400 12.8 1020 1050
    2002 Nogaro blue Audi S3 (BAM)

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  3. #2
    Essflee's Avatar
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    Yes, definitley mapped, aprox 256bhp...

  4. #3
    feck_on_a_stick's Avatar
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    Thanks Essflee.

    If that's right though, I'm a bit disappointed

    How do you work out the approx bhp from those results? Would be nice to learn so I don't have to keep asking
    2002 Nogaro blue Audi S3 (BAM)

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  5. #4
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    take the values in the g/sec column and multiply by 1.25.

    Your peak g/s is around 203, so thats ~254hp

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  6. #5
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    airflow g\s - 205.86 divide by 0.8 = 257 bhp around that mark

  7. #6
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    adding a quarter is somewhat easier than dividing by 0.8.

    I've never understood why folk insist on using that rule when multiplying by 1.25 is exactly the same, and much easier to do quickly in your head.

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  8. #7
    feck_on_a_stick's Avatar
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    Thanks guys

    Havin a look at it now, I can see how you worked it out.

    My friend who logged the results doesn't think I'm hitting the requested boost levels though for some reason.
    2002 Nogaro blue Audi S3 (BAM)

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  9. #8
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feck_on_a_stick View Post
    Thanks Essflee.

    If that's right though, I'm a bit disappointed

    .. because it doesn't pull hard enough ?
    Last edited by brasiliangringo; 28th February 2012 at 12:32.

  10. #9
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feck_on_a_stick View Post
    Thanks guys

    Havin a look at it now, I can see how you worked it out.

    My friend who logged the results doesn't think I'm hitting the requested boost levels though for some reason.
    If you go to measuring blocks 115 you can run a boost test (i think its in 3rd gear from about 2000rpm wide open throttle to near the red line) and log the results in a chart - upload the chart here but there should not be a huge deviation. There will be a specified boost and actual boost. However, i have no experience of doing this when the engine has been modified, but expect it will make no difference as new specified boost values will have been 'remapped in' which vag com should pick up.. ?

  11. #10
    feck_on_a_stick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brasiliangringo View Post
    .. because it doesn't pull hard enough ?
    It's a sharp car but if it's currently running approx 250bhp then I guess I can't help but feel a bit disappointed with how much it actually does lose putting that out onto the road. I'd read that it does, but had still hoped for a bit better

    Just from measuring it against a point in the road with some other cars I've had, I expected better with a map.

    Saying that, I'm still very happy with the car, and it means i can put my map money to use on a TIP pipe and few other bits and pieces instead
    2002 Nogaro blue Audi S3 (BAM)

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  12. #11
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    It doesnt "lose" any more than any other car.

    Its just a fairly heavy motor with not that much power.

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  13. #12
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    It doesnt "lose" any more than any other car.

    Its just a fairly heavy motor with not that much power.
    That's why you are gunning for a V8..

  14. #13
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    both my dailies are 1.8T's

    V8's are awesome but i couldnt afford to fuel one on a daily driven car!

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
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  15. #14
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    LPG.. Do the conversion yourself. Budget £1000 for a top kit. 80p / L. Theres a chap on here who runs his B5 S4 on a BRC LPG Kit and swears by it with no real power loss..

  16. #15
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    yeh its certainly something to consider, theres a V8 Merc Taxi that runs around here thats on LPG.

    The landrover has a long way to go before its finished anyway!

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
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  17. #16
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    Those V8 defender engines sound great. Although tea leaves love them - 2 people i know had their 2000 Td5s stolen in the last few months (both found burnt out). They pulled out the fairly ineffectual immobiliser from near the gear stick area / trans tunnel, so would seem after market security systems like toad and Clifford still have some hope !!

  18. #17
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Log block 20 & 31.

    The whole power from airflow thing is very hit and miss on turbo cars. Good timing is what gets you the power.

    Rick

  19. #18
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by feck_on_a_stick View Post
    Thanks guys

    Havin a look at it now, I can see how you worked it out.

    My friend who logged the results doesn't think I'm hitting the requested boost levels though for some reason.
    repeat and log 118 also to see duty cycle to n75.. that will give you an indication of if its maxed out trying to achieve

    if not meeting request,... leaks... tired turbo or actuator or both
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  20. #19
    feck_on_a_stick's Avatar
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    Thanks again. Looks like I've a few more runs to log
    2002 Nogaro blue Audi S3 (BAM)

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  21. #20
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    Post up your results please as am interested to understand the 118 results (not something i used)

  22. #21
    feck_on_a_stick's Avatar
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    Will do
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  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRST View Post

    The whole power from airflow thing is very hit and miss on turbo cars. Good timing is what gets you the power.

    Rick
    Obviously good timing is also crucial with any normally aspirated engine, so your answer suggests that forced induction (& greater pressure) in some way distort the accuracy of determining power through these readings - could you please explain why that is?

  24. #23
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by brasiliangringo View Post
    Those V8 defender engines sound great. Although tea leaves love them - 2 people i know had their 2000 Td5s stolen in the last few months (both found burnt out). They pulled out the fairly ineffectual immobiliser from near the gear stick area / trans tunnel, so would seem after market security systems like toad and Clifford still have some hope !!
    Entirely OT for this thread ofcourse, but my Landrover wont be having a crappy Rover V8. I've got a 4.2L ABZ motor From an Audi A8 to go in it. Projects sort of stalled for the last year though, i really need to pull my finger out and get a bit of a shift on with it. Too many other things going on though.

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  25. #24
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brasiliangringo View Post
    Obviously good timing is also crucial with any normally aspirated engine, so your answer suggests that forced induction (& greater pressure) in some way distort the accuracy of determining power through these readings - could you please explain why that is?
    Of course

    Timing is even more critical on a forced induction engine than on a N/A engine. Small differences in timing make large changes to power, and to exhaust gas temperature. When we use the divide by 0.8 figure we are assuming that the engine produces the same amount of power for every gram of air it consumes. The two are of course directly related, but also factored by something called BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption.

    Actually, to be correct you should be looking at the amount of fuel burned rather than air consumed. Again, these two inputs are directly linked, but are factored by the Air fuel ratio. Change the AFR ratio and the BSFC changes, as does the amount of power produced per gram of air.

    BSFC is also influenced significantly by ignition timing. The timing is important. When changing the timing, you aren't changing the amount of energy being produced (at least not by much) but how that energy is is distributed. The later the ignition timing, the more energy turns into heat and therefore less is available for mechanical work.

    You loose power and the engine runs hotter, but the same amount of power air is consumed. You often see cars running big boost, but the timing is so retarded they feel completely flat as literally all the fuel is being turned into heat!

    Rick

  26. #25
    brasiliangringo's Avatar
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    Thanks for that Rick - very interesting and something i can now look out for.. I find the 'elementary' is the best foundation for any learning but often overlooked by the likes of me who haven't had a basic qualification in engine tuning, something i thought about doing.. In fact, i tried to find some literature on amazon about tuning a modern engine (inc turbos), the basics onwards to remapping etc but found very little out there..
    Last edited by brasiliangringo; 28th February 2012 at 16:06.

  27. #26
    sideways steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brasiliangringo View Post
    Thanks for that Rick - very interesting and something i can now look out for.. I find the 'elementary' is the best foundation for any learning but often overlooked by the likes of me who haven't had a basic qualification in engine tuning, something i thought about doing.. In fact, i tried to find some literature on amazon about tuning a modern engine (inc turbos), the basics onwards to remapping etc but found very little out there..
    try these links, within which you will find links to suitable books etc

    NefMoto - Index
    GeekMapped.com

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideways steve View Post
    try these links, within which you will find links to suitable books etc

    NefMoto - Index
    GeekMapped.com
    Thanks - i will take a look

  29. #28
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    OT but kind of where its going now but i find that tuning is very often under rated, in the way that people think its a peice of cake.

    whack a remap on it , but any mong can get 200bhp from a 1.8t. Or whatever is the standard for a stage 1map on a s3, about 250bhp by looking at your result.

    Iv got a 1.8t and i have some plans for it, but im doing all the research and getting parts together for when i decide to spend the cash. Iv still got some cosmetic work to do firstly lol but Theres alot to learn and i know pritty much FA but im sure i can get 230bhp from my ko3s for under £600.

    Also i dont know if my car is re mapped or not, feels like it but theres only one real way to find out, and thats a RR day. Ahmm anyone gonna sort one out and drop some invites

  30. #29
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    You should also be able to tell from logging requested boost in VAGCOM

    Rick

  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. View Post
    You often see cars running big boost, but the timing is so retarded they feel completely flat as literally all the fuel is being turned into heat!

    Rick
    Let me get this straight: the same volume of exhaust gases (and boost) can be produced in a 'sweetly timed' engine as in a retarded one? The difference being the latter will result in heat creation where as the former will result in greater kinetic energy, meaning greater piston movement.. ?
    Einstein

  32. #31
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Absolutely spot on!

  33. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. View Post
    Absolutely spot on!
    Cool, thats quite helpful info on which to build

 

 

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