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  1. #1
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    S3 or A3 Track car?

    Hello all,

    As we are selling the 205 track car we've had for years we are wanting something with a bit more power. So which do you think would be the better option? A3 Or S3 and reasons why please.

    Thanks alot.

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  3. #2
    S3featesV9's Avatar
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    A3, cheaper to buy, lighter, no haldex to cause you issues and probably more spares readily available.

    Have a read through prawns a3 track toy thread.
    MODS - Custom Code phase 1, 007p DV, various powerflex bushes, EBC grooved and drilled - red stuff pads, N249 deletion. Badger5 V2 80mm TIP. Scorpion backbox + custom centre section, LCR front splitter, Jetex Fr-08001, R32 rear ARB, Forged IE rifle drilled rods, 20mm rear & 15mm front spacers.

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    I would say FWD A3 for a track car and as said have a read of Prawns track car thread....

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    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  5. #4
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    Neither.

    If you desperately want a 1.8T vag model I'd go for a Leon as the base car will be an awful lot cheaper - Cupra (K03S) or Cupra R (K04) depending upon budget. You'll be ripping most of the interior out to save weight so no point in paying over the ods for a fancy interior!
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  6. #5
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    I concidered a stolen recovered S3 as a track toy but... they still cost too much to have as yet another money pit.
    As said...
    I would go mk4 golf or leon to be fair
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    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

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    Mk4 golf but I'm biased lol

    A3 would be better as there is less weight to start with.
    Word!!!

    My A3/Martys Golf would smash that, and this guys £7000 GT9743 supercharged love machine.

  8. #7
    Chugger

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    as said LCR would be best,

    followed by A3, then S3, if you've got loads of money.

    Even then I think you would be hard pressed to match a 205 track car
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  9. #8
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportstractor View Post

    Even then I think you would be hard pressed to match a 205 track car
    In terms of what Jimbo?

    For sheer handling and driving pleasure, then perhaps the 205 would be the better drivers car, but in terms out outright pace, an A3 track car will wipe the floor with it.... as the OP said he's after something a bit quicker.

    Even in ko3S form, we used to walk all over 205's on trackdays and at the ring, even though they handle amaizngly, 220ish bhp in an 1100kg A3 makes up for a lot of handling losses :P


    If you're thinking 2wd / 4wd I'd definitely say go with the 2wd version over the 4wd, there's a huge weight penalty with the 4wd chassis, and it's more money, time and effort to get them to handle properly.

    I think though, in terms of value for money, pre facelift leon cupras are where it's at at the moment! 180bhp with a ko3S as standard and 312mm brakes, and can be picked up for £1000-1200!!!!

    Not quite as light though....

    Check out my build thread if you want any inspiration for an A3 track car
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    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  10. #9
    Prawn's Avatar
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    or an LCR thinking about it more.....

    TO make an LC handle you'll need LCR wishbones, arb, hubs, rack, brakes, etc etc..... then you'll still not have the ko4 either!

    A rough lCR for sub £3k HAS to be the best starting point for a track car on the mk4 chassis
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    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

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  11. #10
    Chugger

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    I would of just thought a well tuned 205 could keep up, although thinking about it there probably isn't a massive weight difference... A supercharger kit may be required
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  12. #11
    Prawn's Avatar
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    yea, a standard engined 205 (1.6 or 1.9) doesn't have a chance Jimbo, my mates gti-6 engined 205 track car is around 180bhp, and with better tyres (R888's) on his vs my Federals he's around 20s per lap slower at the Ring than I am, despite having done 2-3x as many laps as me. that's with 210bhp from a dead ko3S in mine.
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    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

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  13. #12
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    205 with an Mi16 on ITB's with cams etc should be fairly competative against a k03'd A3 i'd have thaught? Obviously you've not said what motor your current 205 has.

    Personally if your upgrading then 4wd is a sensible next step, and while it might be heavier it will have distinct advantages when it comes to getting the power down, and theres probably only 100kgs in it. On the A3 the quattro cars also get properly independant rear suspension, which is another benefit over the beam axle on the FWD models. Ofcourse wether Haldex is the right tool for the job i cant say, as i tends to act like a fwd car until you get into trouble. The idea of 4wd should be that you dont get into trouble in the first place!

    The funny thing is that plenty folk use Scoobys and Evos as track cars, and with those no-one seems to go "omg, they're 4wd the weight will slow you down". Yet come to A3 land and everyones suggesting FWD cars?

    FWD is THE worst option for power transmission, and good front wheel drive cars handle well DESPITE their awful drivetrain.

    The issue becomes more and more prevalent as you up the power ofcourse. A 110hp 205 will be perfectly fine on a FWD chassis. Stick 300hp in said 205 and things change!

    Theres good reason why 4wd cars dominate motorsport whereever they're allowed. Remember the BTCC banned 4wd in the late 90's after the B5 quattro did so devastatingly well against the FWD and RWD competition. Once changed to a FWD only car, the B5 did absolutely ****.

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  14. #13
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    Yeah but there is a point when awd becomes worth having, and sub 300bhp isnt it, if you have got an LSD of course. Iv seen what prawns car can do, absolutely destroyed evo's and scoobys at Combe. Alot of it comes down to the driver but the fwd sure did prove itself then
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  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportstractor View Post
    Yeah but there is a point when awd becomes worth having, and sub 300bhp isnt it, if you have got an LSD of course. Iv seen what prawns car can do, absolutely destroyed evo's and scoobys at Combe. Alot of it comes down to the driver but the fwd sure did prove itself then
    Id be interested to see that, not doubting just intrigued.

  16. #15
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    there are a few vids on youtube if you're interested

    My username is prawn16 on youtube, I think there's a really old Castle Combe vid, and a few nurburging lap videos. the slower of the Ring lap videos is in my daily though.

    there was one awesome comment from a scooby owner though, along the lines of:

    ''You only overtook the scooby because it was running low boost that day''

    ''oh right, fair enough, what power does the scooby make on low boost?''

    ''400bhp, 500bhp on high boost''

    ''oh, mine's 200bhp ''

    Still makes me laugh.....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    there are a few vids on youtube if you're interested

    My username is prawn16 on youtube, I think there's a really old Castle Combe vid, and a few nurburging lap videos. the slower of the Ring lap videos is in my daily though.

    there was one awesome comment from a scooby owner though, along the lines of:

    ''You only overtook the scooby because it was running low boost that day''

    ''oh right, fair enough, what power does the scooby make on low boost?''

    ''400bhp, 500bhp on high boost''

    ''oh, mine's 200bhp ''

    Still makes me laugh.....
    Haha, yeah cool i'll take a look this evening when I get in.

    The only time I wouldnt be impressed is if the scooby was non-turbo lol.

  18. #17
    Prawn's Avatar
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    it was good fun, the quote in my sig is from that day too.

    Car has had LOADS of development since then too, and at ADI was an extra 2 secs per lap quicker on average compared to the Combe day in April last year.

    Cannot wait to get behind the wheel now that it has another 100bhp!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  19. #18
    A3AH's Avatar
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    Hopefully ill get to have a look in the flesh on the 28th.. Im just looking forward to getting mine remapped. I purchased jetex,TIP and 007p yesterday.. Then upto r-tech on the 25th.

    Ill have a look at these videos on youtube tonight, because i remember you saying you did a sub 9 minute Ring so i want to see it cos thats quick.

  20. #19
    slepy's Avatar
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    Prawn what was your rough cost to get the car K04d, all LCR suspension bits etc that you would already have in a S3?
    And what will be your next step when it comes to power? It's just a matter of time till you get bored with what you have.
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  21. #20
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    I'm entirely sure that if you put prawn in a scooby or evo that was similarly prepped as his A3, with the same power to weight ratio, he'd be quicker in the scooby/evo than he is now.


    Just because he can goto a trackday and piss all over "better" cars doesnt mean that FWD is good. It probably means that the other cars were either badly setup or badly driven, and that his car is well setup and well driven.

    As for the aforementioned 400hp scooby, we all know what bar horsepower figures are like, fact is the car probably had nowhere near 400hp, a **** driver, road tyres, and badly setup suspension. Because had he actually had 400hp, then even if Prawn had managed to out brake him or out corner him, with nearly twice the power he'd have blown him away as soon as the track streightened up.

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  22. #21
    A3AH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    I'm entirely sure that if you put prawn in a scooby or evo that was similarly prepped as his A3, with the same power to weight ratio, he'd be quicker in the scooby/evo than he is now.


    Just because he can goto a trackday and piss all over "better" cars doesnt mean that FWD is good. It probably means that the other cars were either badly setup or badly driven, and that his car is well setup and well driven.

    As for the aforementioned 400hp scooby, we all know what bar horsepower figures are like, fact is the car probably had nowhere near 400hp, a **** driver, road tyres, and badly setup suspension. Because had he actually had 400hp, then even if Prawn had managed to out brake him or out corner him, with nearly twice the power he'd have blown him away as soon as the track streightened up.
    I never disputed that?

  23. #22
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    It doesnt take a genius to work out that a 400bhp scooby with a similar driver set up correctly would wipe the floor with the A3..

    Especially on the ring.

  24. #23
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by A3AH View Post
    I never disputed that?
    I never said you did?

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  25. #24
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slepy View Post
    Prawn what was your rough cost to get the car K04d, all LCR suspension bits etc that you would already have in a S3?
    And what will be your next step when it comes to power? It's just a matter of time till you get bored with what you have.
    I don't want to get into the other argument, so I'll just reply to this post I think :P

    The only things on the car that are shared with an S3 are the wishbones, hubs, steering rack, and rear brakes I believe, total cost for those bits is sub £300.

    Nothing else on the car is shared with a standard s3, it's all uprated parts, ko4 hybrid, XS mani and downpipe, B5 TIP, so all money you'd still be spending on an S3 as well.

    my next step for power, IF I need it at all, will be rods and to simply up the boost, it's running sub 300 now, and is 340+ capable with rods.

    I've had it for 4 years with 220bhp though and not really felt the need for more power until very recently, for the last year or so it's only had arund 200bhp, so I think the jump to 300 will keep me MORE than happy for a good while yet, and with the potential for 340 IF I ever get bored, I can't see me needing to worry.

    If I stuck rods in it and took it to 340bhp, and removed my aircon, stereo, and central locking to save a few more Kg, you would need 476bhp in an S3 to match the power:weight ratio.....

    that gives you an idea of how potent it will be.....

    I think that'd be enough!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  26. #25
    slepy's Avatar
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    Thanks for that.
    I'm really confused what to buy. TT, S3, A3, A4, S4. Good that at least I know I want an audi...
    It's getting warm so about time to get it now and start modding.

    Edit:
    or LC...
    Have you seen any cages for leon though?
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  27. #26
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    OMP and custom cages both make cages for a leon,

    cage fitment is identical on the Leon and mk4 golf too, although OMP do do a leon specific cage that's not FIA/MSA compliant as the front legs bend too many times, so to remain compliant you'd need to install the straight legged mk4 golf variant that I've got in the A3.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  28. #27
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    OK, thanks
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  29. #28
    A3AH's Avatar
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    Was the 220bhp you had from stage 1 or 2, or should i say what did it have when you were using it.before you up'd the power?

  30. #29
    Chugger

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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    I'm entirely sure that if you put prawn in a scooby or evo that was similarly prepped as his A3, with the same power to weight ratio, he'd be quicker in the scooby/evo than he is now.


    Just because he can goto a trackday and piss all over "better" cars doesnt mean that FWD is good. It probably means that the other cars were either badly setup or badly driven, and that his car is well setup and well driven.

    As for the aforementioned 400hp scooby, we all know what bar horsepower figures are like, fact is the car probably had nowhere near 400hp, a **** driver, road tyres, and badly setup suspension. Because had he actually had 400hp, then even if Prawn had managed to out brake him or out corner him, with nearly twice the power he'd have blown him away as soon as the track streightened up.
    Nevertheless, I think your under estimating the fwd chassis. They do hold their own pretty well. The scooby seemed pretty well equipped for track use.

    Honestly wouldn't bother track prepping an s3 unless you have a fair bit of money to spend on it.
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  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3AH View Post
    Was the 220bhp you had from stage 1 or 2, or should i say what did it have when you were using it.before you up'd the power?
    Its a stage 2 ko3S on an AGU, once upon a time it made about 225bhp, but many years of hard use took their toll on the turbo, and for all of last years trackdays and Ring trips we were running around 210bhp. Last dyno in September came out at 208bhp.

    It's a shame in some ways I've changed the turbo now, as I had visions of gettng a sub 08:30 at the Ring on a ko3S. We did 08:40 many times in traffic, and looking at Best sectors from my data logging a theoretical best lap to date was 08:36, but still with loads of long hold ups. I reckon the ko3S would have been good for an 08:20 on a really clear lap.

    Quote Originally Posted by sportstractor View Post
    Nevertheless, I think your under estimating the fwd chassis. They do hold their own pretty well. The scooby seemed pretty well equipped for track use.
    A few of the scoobs were caged up on 888's and the like yea, and that blue EVO 8 was around 400bhp as well, i guess they just couldn't drive all that well!
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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  32. #31
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    Ive just (couple of weeks back) got a smacked S3 that im going to track. Like everyone has said though the parts are expensive, but im commited now so hopefully it will be interesting to see come summer......there is no off the shelf cage for an S3 though which makes me worry as obviously everyone has ignored it for motorsport !

  33. #32
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    I am gonna throw in a curve ball here and say I really fancy a TT quattro as a track car... stripped and caged of course with a GT3076r...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  34. #33
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    Me too! Just finding a dog cheap one isn't easy
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  35. #34
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydie1 View Post
    there is no off the shelf cage for an S3 though which makes me worry as obviously everyone has ignored it for motorsport !
    mk4 golf 5 door cages goes straight in mate

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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  36. #35
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Whilst I admit that 4wd has it's clear benefits when using massive power, I found this article hugely interesting to read:

    Audi S3 Turned Race car for the “The Green Hell”

    Whe Audi decided to build an 8P race car, they actually REMOVED the 4wd system in favour of a FWD setup! And no, that's not for class regs either....
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  37. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murf View Post
    Hello all,

    As we are selling the 205 track car we've had for years we are wanting something with a bit more power. So which do you think would be the better option? A3 Or S3 and reasons why please.

    Thanks alot.
    Neither, get something RWD for the track far more involving and fun.

    At a push (as much as I hate to admit it) you'd be better off out of those 2 options with the FWD but only from weight saving perspective.
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    Take 1 quattro, remove the 2 front wheel drive shafts = RWDish

  39. #38
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    Only, it wouldn't work. I don't think.

    I assume, that the haldex system works on ABS wheel speed sensors, so remove the front shafts, the output flanges spin, ABS discs don't spin, car doesn't move, so haldex never engages!

    Not sure what would happen if you were able to manually switch the haldex on though, but I still can't imagine it being any good :P
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  40. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Only, it wouldn't work. I don't think.

    I assume, that the haldex system works on ABS wheel speed sensors, so remove the front shafts, the output flanges spin, ABS discs don't spin, car doesn't move, so haldex never engages!
    Minor detail

  41. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barks View Post
    Take 1 quattro, remove the 2 front wheel drive shafts = RWDish
    Nearly....remove prop-shaft and select reverse = RWD.
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    By Shy19s in forum General Chat
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    Last Post: 30th July 2008, 00:42

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