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Thread: 3rd gear logs

  1. #1
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    3rd gear logs

    Done some 3rd gear logs today, my mate thinks everything looks ok, can anyone see anything different.

    Any info would be great

    Cheers

    Friday 10 February 2012 02:26:14:36807

    VCDS Version: Release 11.11.2 (x64)
    Data version: 20120126
    8N0 906 018 BH 1.8L R4/5VT G 0001
    Group A: '115 Group B: '020 Group C: '003
    Engine Speed Engine Load Boost Pressure Boost Pressure Timing Retardation Timing Retardation Timing Retardation Timing Retardation Engine Speed Mass Air Flow Throttle Valve Angle Ignition
    TIME (G28) (specified) (actual) TIME Cylinder 1 Cylinder 2 Cylinder 3 Cylinder 4 TIME (G28) Sensor (G70) Timing Angle
    Marker STAMP /min % mbar mbar STAMP °KW °KW °KW °KW STAMP /min g/s % °ATDC
    0.62 1640 76.7 1640 1050 0.01 0 0 0 0 0.31 1560 17.78 15.3 25.5
    1.52 1920 93.2 2080 1210 0.92 0 0 0 0 1.22 1840 31.94 81.6 16.5
    2.42 2240 121.8 2440 1430 1.82 0 0 0 0 2.12 2120 48.64 87.8 13.5
    3.33 2640 154.9 2550 1760 2.73 0 0 0 0 3.02 2520 74.67 45.1 11.3
    4.24 3120 191.7 2550 2320 3.63 0 0 0 0 3.93 2960 113.56 42 1.5
    5.14 3840 191.7 2550 2540 4.54 0 0 0 0 4.84 3520 154.61 44.7 6
    6.05 4280 191.7 2550 2460 5.44 0 3 0 0 5.74 4120 170.89 47.8 11.3
    6.95 4840 191.7 2550 2300 6.35 0 3 0 0 6.65 4640 178.89 50.6 12
    7.86 5320 185.7 2550 2180 7.25 0 3 0 0 7.55 5160 184.36 53.3 11.3
    8.76 5800 182 2550 2110 8.17 0 1.5 0 0 8.47 5640 201.14 54.1 14.3
    9.67 6200 175.2 2550 2070 9.06 0 0 0 0 9.37 6040 203.31 55.7 14.3
    10.57 6520 170.7 2480 2110 9.97 3 0 0 0 10.27 6440 214.11 55.7 15

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  3. #2
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    looks like an aggressive map.
    whats block 031 show for fueling during all of this
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    LOL... looks like one of those 'lets turn the boost to 11' maps...

    I'd want to see block 031 in there to see what the fuelling is doing but airflow looks ok, minimal timing pull...

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  5. #4
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    is the requested boost at 2550 mbar maxed out at that figure?
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    you and I have seen too many of these.... Hopefully this one also has been given some fueling to go with the raised boost.

    logging blocks 112,118,031 will show egt's, ait's, n75 duty cycle, and fueling - Presuming your wideband.... which I think you are,,
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    www.badger5.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex C View Post
    is the requested boost at 2550 mbar maxed out at that figure?
    2550mb is max of the map sensor yes.. so in requested terms its as high as you can directly ask for.. You can of course do more than what you can see... but thats outside of the range of the ecu's map sensor.
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  8. #7
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    The map was done at Star Performance in Scotland. I will have to do some more runs but logging 112,118,031 see whats going on. Thanks for all the help and comments. Will post ASAP

  9. #8
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    Had my S3 mapped at same place will need to get some logs and see if there similar to yours.

  10. #9
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    239 bhp max power I make that from the airflow ? Seems a bit low surely when its running 1.5 bar of boost ?

    Especially since a stock 210bhp S3 only runs at about 0.8 bar, I would have expected nearly double the boost to have given more than 30 bhp ?

    Also that boost only hits the requested amount once throughout the run and tails off quite a bit. Is that normal for a remapped car or does it just have a weak actuator ?

  11. #10
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    Is it not 267 bhp. i thought it was air flow divide by 0.8.

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    Actual boost looks about right tbh...

    Its the map request thats confusing the issue... seen a few maps like this... its not the way others tend to do it... its a generic turn boost up to 11 and let it sort itself out... as Bill has said it would be more interesting to see if the fuelling has been sorted to cope...

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  13. #12
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    DOH, I was looking at engine load LOL !

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    once roads get a bit quieter will head out tonight and do some logs on mine and upload be good to see if running ok as done by same company just after i got the car.

    i have done both my logs but not sure best way to upload as excel file keeps shifting over any one help me on this please ??

    Friday 10 February 2012 18:59:23
    8N0 906 018 J 1.8L R4/5VT 0003
    Group A: '115 Group B: '020 Group C: '003
    RPM Load Absolute Pres. Absolute Pres. Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization Idle Stabilization RPM Mass Flow Load Ign. Timing
    TIME TIME TIME
    Marker STAMP /min % mbar mbar STAMP CF CF CF CF STAMP /min g/s % °BTDC
    0.42 1160 50.4 1020 1010 0.82 0 0 0 0 0.01 800 3.89 2.4 0
    1.71 1040 63.2 1020 1040 2.11 0 0 0 0 1.22 1440 16.22 10.2 7.5
    3.03 1240 42.9 1020 1040 3.44 0 0 0 0 2.53 1120 9.72 6.7 5.3
    4.24 1720 59.4 1020 1050 4.75 0 0 0 0 3.84 1440 22.61 14.5 23.3
    5.54 2400 17.3 1020 1160 5.95 0 0 1.5 0 5.15 2480 43.44 26.3 21
    6.86 2280 88.7 1020 1360 7.36 0 0 0 0 6.35 2040 40.83 86.3 15
    8.27 1880 97.7 1810 1240 8.75 0 0 1.5 0 7.76 1720 32.44 76.9 13.5
    9.57 2360 132.3 2330 1530 9.98 0 0 0 0 9.17 2200 53.03 89.4 12
    10.88 3080 191.7 2430 2490 11.28 0 0 0 3 10.48 2840 107.78 98.4 6
    12.1 3960 191.7 2450 2440 12.59 0 0 0 3 11.68 3640 150.89 100 6
    13.5 4880 191.7 2440 2430 14 3 3 3 6 12.99 4560 193.11 99.6 8.3
    14.91 5720 191.7 2280 2320 15.31 6 6 6 9 14.4 5440 217.78 100 8.3
    16.11 6280 191.7 2210 2190 16.51 5.3 5.3 5.3 9 15.71 6080 227.78 100 8.3
    17.31 6680 179.7 2180 2230 17.73 5.3 5.3 5.3 8.3 16.93 6560 231.22 100 10.5
    18.64 7000 149.6 1590 2340 19.13 0 0 0 0 18.22 6960 228.22 100 9.8
    20.03 6280 12.8 1020 1110 20.43 0 0 0 0 19.63 6520 13.33 9 9.8
    21.34 5280 12 1020 1060 21.74 0 0 0 0 20.84 5640 13.53 8.2 6
    22.54 4200 12.8 1020 1050 22.94 0 0 0 0 22.14 4560 11.03 7.1 5.3
    23.85 2880 13.5 1020 1040 24.25 0 0 0 0 23.44 3320 8.53 5.5 2.3
    25.07 1640 12.8 1020 1040 25.56 0 0 0 0 24.65 2080 5.39 3.5 3
    26.46 960 16.5 1020 1020 26.86 0 0 0 0 25.96 1120 3.22 2 16.5
    27.66 840 19.5 1020 1020 28.08 0 0 0 0 27.28 840 3.31 2 1.5
    Last edited by djx11b; 10th February 2012 at 19:13.

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    Friday 10 February 2012 18:17:57
    8N0 906 018 J 1.8L R4/5VT 0003
    Group A: '112 Group B: '118 Group C: '031
    Temperature Load Bin. Bits Bin. Bits RPM Temperature Load Absolute Pres. Lambda Factor Lambda Factor Bin. Bits Bin. Bits
    TIME TIME TIME
    Marker STAMP °C % STAMP /min °C % mbar STAMP
    0.4 525 0 0.9 800 21 0 1010 0.01 1.023 0.992
    1.71 520 0 2.21 1160 21 94.5 1050 1.31 0.899 0.992
    3.03 530 0 3.43 2560 18 0 1320 2.63 0.953 0.992
    4.32 560 0 4.74 2000 18 94.5 1220 3.82 0.992 0.992
    5.54 590 0 5.94 2480 16 0 1250 5.14 1.008 0.992
    6.75 630 0 7.15 2000 17 94.5 1280 6.34 0.984 0.984
    8.05 650 0 8.45 2520 18 94.5 1670 7.55 0.961 0.953
    9.36 680 0 9.76 3280 18 74.1 2140 8.86 0.953 0.953
    10.67 750 0 11.07 4160 18 77.3 2240 10.27 0.938 0.953
    11.87 795 0 12.27 4960 20 79.6 2290 11.47 0.953 0.953
    13.18 855 0 13.58 5760 22 80.4 2210 12.69 0.93 0.953
    14.4 905 0 14.8 6320 24 78 2110 13.98 0.938 0.953
    15.69 945 5.1 16.11 6840 27 79.2 2120 15.29 0.953 0.953
    17.02 975 16.1 17.5 7040 26 0 1390 16.61 0.821 0.821
    18.32 970 0 18.72 6560 24 0 1090 17.9 0.914 0.961
    19.61 935 0 20.01 5800 25 0 1060 19.12 1.991 1.047
    20.93 855 0 21.33 4600 25 0 1040 20.43 1.991 1.047
    22.13 790 0 22.54 2840 24 0 1040 21.73 1.991 1.047
    23.44 725 0 23.84 2480 24 0 1040 23.02 1.991 1.047
    24.73 675 0 25.13 2320 24 0 1040 24.24 1.991 1.047
    26.06 640 0 26.46 1840 24 0 1030 25.57 1.991 1.047
    27.26 610 0 27.66 1000 24 0 1020 26.84 1.991 1.047
    28.46 600 0 28.86 760 24 0 1020 28.06 1.554 0.945
    29.66 595 0 30.08 720 23 0 1010 29.26 1.016 0.945
    30.97 590 0 31.37 720 23 0 1010 30.48 0.938 0.945

  16. #15
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Hummm... lots of timing pull... dangerously so... fuelling looks std so basically all the boost and no fuel

    975 deg EGT's... ouchies...

    Your fuelling needs sorting mate...

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    best to go back to star performance and ask for fuel to be sorted out then tuffy ?

    thought bhp seemed a bit high for mods as only got a remap and badger 5 with jetex and cat back milltek

  18. #17
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    The lean fuel at the top end will give more power but at the expense of the engine running dangerously hot... EGT protection seems to be kicking in (920deg EGT's) but it could be too little too late... 975deg is pretty hot...

    You can try and ask... if thats the fuelling then its not right... should be 0.85 ish on boost... (12.5 AFR)

    You can see at the end of the run where the EGT's hit 975deg that the lambda drops to 0.82... thats the EGT protection kicking in... ideally the fuelling will prevent EGT protection from being needed under normal conditions as it just pours fuel in which is not the best...

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  19. #18
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    once again thanks for your advice. I have sent Jim a email with a link to this post so he can see my logs so will await his responce and see what he would advise for me. was looking to be getting my jbs manifold, pipewerx downpipe and sports cat fitted soon so might try and tie in all in if i need to head back up that way :D.

    I'm not to tech minded about all the logs and way it runs so any feedback or help would be great

    sorry hope i'm not hijacking the thread as well

    james
    Last edited by djx11b; 10th February 2012 at 22:08.

  20. #19
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    In the first log you post, look at the throttle plate angle... The boost PID maps need retuning. It is running too lean, and would make more power if richer and cooler. Also, it could also run more timing, leading to even more power and cooler running.

    Rick

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    Have to agree with tuffty, it looks like the tuner has just increased the boost map ldrxn to the magical 190, which seems to be a popular max without actually adjusting fuelling. In theory the lambda maps control the fueling but once you go past the EGT protection setting it'll do extra fuel in to combat the high egts. Basically you're relying on the safety features of the ecu to prevent high egts and lean conditions. As said before a properly tuned map shouldn't hit these limits/protection features. The cf's also show that the ting maps are also either stock or not correct.

  22. #21
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    The LOAD in block 115 isn't the Load at ldrxn... Of that I'm sure.
    The function that prevents high EGT it's the BTS, the map it's KFLBTS, some people tune fuel with that function, setting TABGBTS to a lower value.
    I think that the car runs to lean all the time... try to set the Lambda to +-.85, and EGT will drop, timing pull will drop and you'll have a more stable timing and higher...
    Last edited by Pedrosousa; 11th February 2012 at 05:50.
    Talking about the 800hp by 0-400 S3 : "Is it true that everytime you take this car down the strip, the earths rotation slows by 0.1 % ??"

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    Guys whats the equation/method of turning the lambda values to AFR??

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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    Guys whats the equation/method of turning the lambda values to AFR??
    Lambda = 1 = AFR = 14.7
    Talking about the 800hp by 0-400 S3 : "Is it true that everytime you take this car down the strip, the earths rotation slows by 0.1 % ??"

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    Quote Originally Posted by djx11b View Post
    Friday 10 February 2012 18:17:57
    8N0 906 018 J 1.8L R4/5VT 0003
    Group A: '112 Group B: '118 Group C: '031
    Temperature Load Bin. Bits Bin. Bits RPM Temperature Load Absolute Pres. Lambda Factor Lambda Factor Bin. Bits Bin. Bits
    TIME TIME TIME
    Marker STAMP °C % STAMP /min °C % mbar STAMP
    0.4 525 0 0.9 800 21 0 1010 0.01 1.023 0.992
    1.71 520 0 2.21 1160 21 94.5 1050 1.31 0.899 0.992
    3.03 530 0 3.43 2560 18 0 1320 2.63 0.953 0.992
    4.32 560 0 4.74 2000 18 94.5 1220 3.82 0.992 0.992
    5.54 590 0 5.94 2480 16 0 1250 5.14 1.008 0.992
    6.75 630 0 7.15 2000 17 94.5 1280 6.34 0.984 0.984
    8.05 650 0 8.45 2520 18 94.5 1670 7.55 0.961 0.953
    9.36 680 0 9.76 3280 18 74.1 2140 8.86 0.953 0.953
    10.67 750 0 11.07 4160 18 77.3 2240 10.27 0.938 0.953
    11.87 795 0 12.27 4960 20 79.6 2290 11.47 0.953 0.953
    13.18 855 0 13.58 5760 22 80.4 2210 12.69 0.93 0.953
    14.4 905 0 14.8 6320 24 78 2110 13.98 0.938 0.953
    15.69 945 5.1 16.11 6840 27 79.2 2120 15.29 0.953 0.953
    17.02 975 16.1 17.5 7040 26 0 1390 16.61 0.821 0.821
    18.32 970 0 18.72 6560 24 0 1090 17.9 0.914 0.961
    19.61 935 0 20.01 5800 25 0 1060 19.12 1.991 1.047
    20.93 855 0 21.33 4600 25 0 1040 20.43 1.991 1.047
    22.13 790 0 22.54 2840 24 0 1040 21.73 1.991 1.047
    23.44 725 0 23.84 2480 24 0 1040 23.02 1.991 1.047
    24.73 675 0 25.13 2320 24 0 1040 24.24 1.991 1.047
    26.06 640 0 26.46 1840 24 0 1030 25.57 1.991 1.047
    27.26 610 0 27.66 1000 24 0 1020 26.84 1.991 1.047
    28.46 600 0 28.86 760 24 0 1020 28.06 1.554 0.945
    29.66 595 0 30.08 720 23 0 1010 29.26 1.016 0.945
    30.97 590 0 31.37 720 23 0 1010 30.48 0.938 0.945

    I'm afraid its exactly the sort of map I was expecting to see (all too common)

    No adjustments have been made to factory fueling whilst adding in a shed load of boost.... which promotes exceedingly high egt's which promotes high timing pull.... Anything over 920'c is protection mode fueling, and anything over 6CF is regarded as too much timing pull also...

    Given this is only a 3rd gear run, imagine what the temps and timing pull are in longer sustained runs in 4,5,6th gears!!!!!

    Unsafe map imho as it stands.
    Check with Star and ask if they think the logs look ok, normal to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djx11b View Post
    best to go back to star performance and ask for fuel to be sorted out then tuffy ?

    thought bhp seemed a bit high for mods as only got a remap and badger 5 with jetex and cat back milltek
    The high flow TIP explains the nice high airflows... Add some fuel to the party and it will be better for it. 0.9x lambda's under boost is not good at all.
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  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRST View Post
    In the first log you post, look at the throttle plate angle... The boost PID maps need retuning. It is running too lean, and would make more power if richer and cooler. Also, it could also run more timing, leading to even more power and cooler running.

    Rick

    good spot.. very odd throttle angle... when it should be 100%.. I had'nt scrolled that far across.
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    I had one of these ****ty maps lads as bill and tuffty nose change it asap my turbo went wich made me go hybrid.

    At the time I did not have a job do I was f.....cked but don't do what I did and leave it as long as possible boost boost boost they just take ya money and f....ck ya car lads I'm on standered map now and still running same as bhp as I was with the map lol.
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  29. #28
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    Just looked at your location - Barrow. I had another car come to me from Barrow that had had a mysterious remap, displaying very similar symptoms. See here: AudiSRS.com :: 1 HAPPY CHAPPY AFTER REMAP AND EXTRAS

    Mass air flow DOES NOT EQUAL POWER, especially on a turbo charged car. It is purely a function of boost and hardware spec. It can be used to see the difference a hardware mod will make, eg bigger inter cooler, turbo, head work. It can't be used to compare one map to another due to timing and fuelling having such dramatic effects. 8 degrees timing at the top end is very poor, no way do you have 260+ I'm afriad

    Rick

  30. #29
    sean_s3's Avatar
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    How can we be guaranteed a safe map then ?

    Some of the companies that are selling these generic maps at affordable prices are supposedly reputable tuners .
    S3 Big Turbo

  31. #30
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    go on reputation and advise from others who have been somewhere and get +ve feedback.
    i would'nt choose by price, and would look for those who can validate the maps on a dyno, showing you actual before and after with logs etc....

    my 2p
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  32. #31
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    Afternoon Chaps

    Im not going to get chance to do the logs this weekend but i will at some point next week. By the looks of things its gonna be exactly the same as james'. I may have to arrange a trip to come and see one of you guys, not brilliant timing because in need of a new clutch also. Better get the overtime in.

    Again thanks for the input

  33. #32
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    Dimsport driver packs missing LAMFA and KFLBTS...

  34. #33
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R-Tech-Nick View Post
    Dimsport driver packs missing LAMFA and KFLBTS...
    That would do it...

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

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    Quote Originally Posted by R-Tech-Nick View Post
    Dimsport driver packs missing LAMFA and KFLBTS...
    Use LAMFA to set the AFR in WOT, and set KFLBTS to preserve the engine in case of high EGT

    I can post 2d images of LAMFA and BTS
    Last edited by Pedrosousa; 11th February 2012 at 22:16.
    Talking about the 800hp by 0-400 S3 : "Is it true that everytime you take this car down the strip, the earths rotation slows by 0.1 % ??"

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    I was pointing out most on the non specailist tuners will use editing SW which offers a basic map packs just to wack up the load, timing and boost limiters on ME * ecu which are lambda 1* based. If they are lucky they will tune a map with KFLBTS which is not set to 1 like 0261204899 if they are unlucky they will tune 0261207952 which has KFLBTS set to 1 across the board.

    But saying that even Damos, A2l files and supermap pack get the LAMFA X-axis wrong converting it into 16bitLo/Hi not Hi/Lowhich can confuse some tuners.


    IMO tuning the fuel via LMFA gets the best results.

  37. #36
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    Excuse my ignorance but do some tuners really just turn up the load timing and boost limiters and leave lamfa stock? Surely it's basic good practice when you run increased loads and timings to enrich the fuel to 12-12.5 at wot and the only way this'll happen is by adjusting lamfa or kflbts. I know some prefer kflbts And the fact it's triggered by EGT to enrichen, but surely leaving it stock is potentially dangerous to the engine?

  38. #37
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbuggy View Post
    Excuse my ignorance but do some tuners really just turn up the load timing and boost limiters and leave lamfa stock? Surely it's basic good practice when you run increased loads and timings to enrich the fuel to 12-12.5 at wot and the only way this'll happen is by adjusting lamfa or kflbts. I know some prefer kflbts And the fact it's triggered by EGT to enrichen, but surely leaving it stock is potentially dangerous to the engine?
    yes they do

    see lots of them...

    usually from mobile chaps selling cheap maps.. BUT not exclusively.. Also seen others who have a "name" also install such maps...
    go figure....

    westies was one of em... lean as you like map... made reasonable power, but stock fueling and egt's were mental... which had cracked most things manifold/turbo wise..
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    Quote Originally Posted by R-Tech-Nick View Post
    I was pointing out most on the non specailist tuners will use editing SW which offers a basic map packs just to wack up the load, timing and boost limiters on ME * ecu which are lambda 1* based. If they are lucky they will tune a map with KFLBTS which is not set to 1 like 0261204899 if they are unlucky they will tune 0261207952 which has KFLBTS set to 1 across the board.


    But saying that even Damos, A2l files and supermap pack get the LAMFA X-axis wrong converting it into 16bitLo/Hi not Hi/Lowhich can confuse some tuners.


    IMO tuning the fuel via LMFA gets the best results.
    Nick, can LAMFA be used to tune fuel in narrowband ECU's???
    Talking about the 800hp by 0-400 S3 : "Is it true that everytime you take this car down the strip, the earths rotation slows by 0.1 % ??"

  40. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbuggy View Post
    Excuse my ignorance but do some tuners really just turn up the load timing and boost limiters and leave lamfa stock? Surely it's basic good practice when you run increased loads and timings to enrich the fuel to 12-12.5 at wot and the only way this'll happen is by adjusting lamfa or kflbts. I know some prefer kflbts And the fact it's triggered by EGT to enrichen, but surely leaving it stock is potentially dangerous to the engine?
    Some tuners set the activation temperature of BTS to 200ºC (originally +- 850) and use KFLBTS to tune fuel... KFLBTS it's super rich the map must be edited if the idea it's to set fuel with this.
    Talking about the 800hp by 0-400 S3 : "Is it true that everytime you take this car down the strip, the earths rotation slows by 0.1 % ??"

  41. #40
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    I find this astounding that a tuner up here that is supposedly known as "reputable" and one which someone on this board was recently trying to arrange a group buy on remaps with, is pumping out maps like this on peoples cars :-(

    I was actually tempted to have them remap my car even though years back when I had my Mk2 Golf I had a bad experience with this company whereby it did make me wonder how good they actually were.

    On here this same company have had some very good feedback and they have been recommended to people quite a few times. They are also highly spoken of on ScottishVag.

    This needs to be stopped as its only a matter of time before someone pays good money for a remap and ends up with a blown engine.

    Whats even worse is that this tuner does have a rolling road and could easily check these maps on a car by car basis but clearly he either is not doing so or he doesnt know what he is doing, both of which are very concerning !

    Well I know I will deffo not be going there now for a remap. I think I will wait longer until I can afford a trip down to Badger 5 as he seems to be one of the only people that genuinley has a clue what there doing !

 

 
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