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Thread: 3rd gear logs

  1. #81
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by djx11b View Post
    think there had been a bit of a mix up with my logs and millermk1 logs. so sent over my own logs in a email.

    reply was - Yes, fine for the boost but we can fit a 4.0bar reg.

    so recommending i get a 4.0 bar fitted to help out with my fueling. Are these easy to fit or is it a garage job ?

    In relation to YOUR Logs.. not millars, 4bar FPR is a crock of **** reply..
    The MAP REQUESTED fueling, as per your logs is standard, and LEAN... Adding a 4bar FPR is not the fix.. It will simply force adaptions to back out 15% fueling as it will be too rich, but STILL only fuel to stock 0.9x lambda under boost.

    MAP is your issue...
    they did see yours logs did they not?

    dont fit 4bar fpr. it will not fix their incorrect fueling requests in their map.
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  3. #82
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by sideways steve View Post
    I dont understand why hes now trying to sell you a fuel pressure regulator. He should be correcting the fuelling in the remap ! LOL

    Also to expand on that a bit in relation to tufty's post, if you did go ahead and fit an FPR the car will still run lean as your map will still adjust the fuelling to achieve the requested 0.95 lambda value. So although you will force more fuel into the fuel rail mechanically via the FPR the ecu will think the car is overfuelling and reduce the injector duty cycle even more than it already is to keep the lambda value the same as it is just now.
    well, it actually wont.. as its adpation will pull 15% out as seen in block 032 trims and it will still maintain its requested lambda request.
    Its working the fuel pump hard for no good reason also.
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  4. #83
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by djx11b View Post
    ahhhhh wish i never done my logs now lol (kidding) love the car love the power just need my fueling sorted. if they don't recommend it and it looks fine to them what other options do i have ? ?
    If they cannot realise the fueling is incorrect, what sort of tuners are they?
    running it like it is, is causing very high EGT's which is destructive to the turbo/manifold.. Crazy
    High EGT's, lean running, promote high timing pull as the cyl temps get so so hot... none of this being appropriate or safe tuning.

    CHECK: You have sent them the logs you posted on here yes? If we can see this, ask yourself why they cannot?

    Why would you want to go with more mods as suggested when the advise received so far from them is so wrong?

    If me.. I would be after it getting reverted to stock, refund, and find another tuner (a revo dealer or something in scotland perhaps) as their software is well proven and does not run lean. OR venture south and go to one of the tuners who get discussed a lot on here)

    Sorry, but it makes my blood boil hearing such fob off's from other tuners.. Ridiculous.
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  5. #84
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    The issue you have here, as I see it, is that if the tuner does not know that the car is running dangerously, then they're never going to be prepared to rectify the issue free of charge.

    It seems that they've been putting maps like these on cars for years, and because the fuelling is the same as standard, they're assuming it's OK.

    Clearly it's not, but until you can get the tuner to accept there is an issue, you're buggered!

    From the e-mail you posted above he clearly thinks it's fine, although he's clearly stuck in the last decade if he thinks a 4 bar FPR is required, and seriously, £99 for a 4 bar FPR? sounds a little extreme to me!
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  6. #85
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    i sent my logs to jim the same one's i have posted here. i have also emailed asking for him to look at this post again and see what advice and the information on the issue you guys are talking about. If it is not solved i will revert back to standard map and go elsewhere. i have also asked for a refund if it has to go this far but hopefully it can be fixed.

    thanks for all the advice and input guys as i'm not to clued up on the logs etc

    will update if i get a reply

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    well, it actually wont.. as its adpation will pull 15% out as seen in block 032 trims and it will still maintain its requested lambda request.
    Its working the fuel pump hard for no good reason also.
    Cheers for eplaining that, I wasnt sure if it would pull the duty cycle down or do it via trims as you have said. I guess either way though the end result is still the same, if you were to up the fuel pressure mechanically the ECU just thinks the car is too rich and pulls back fuelling to reach the requested lambda value because thats what the map is requesting.

    I visited this particular tuner about 10 years ago when I had an issue with my Mk2 Golf 1.6 Driver where it would accelerate to about 75mph tops and never go past it, it would go really flat. I checked a few things but as I didnt know the car very well at that point I figured it would be worth paying a "vw specialist" to take a look at it for me and diagnose the issue.

    The response I got after a diagnostic and rolling road tune up was "its not a GTI so what are you expecting" Obviously I was not too happy and replied that I still expected it to be able to go above 75mph. His advice was to fit a webber carb as that would improve performance and solve my issues as he blamed the old pierburg carb as being old and unreliable.

    On getting home I looked into pricing for Webber's and ended up buying the conversion kit and fitting it all myself, took the car out and surprise surprise the issue was still there and it had made no difference at all. I then spoke to a nice chap at webber who was a carb expert over the phone and described what the car was doing and instantly without even seeing the vehicle or having any VW specific experience said "sounds like a timing issue to me".

    Out I went and pulled off all the timing covers to discover the belt was out by about 2 teeth on the cam. I had never even thought to check this as I had receipts stating the car had the timing belt done by another well known garage not that long before I had bought it so never once for a minute did i think it would be this !

    After redoing the timing belt the car went like the clappers.

    It now seems that even though that was some time ago, this company seem to still be going down the same route of trying to sell you something to fix a fault that should not exist if they indeed are a "specialist" in that field.

    People can make up their own minds here but I think that some of the replies in this topic speak for themselves. I certainly wouldnt be even considering going back for further mods when they seem to fail to be able to sort out an exisitng issue that was soley caused by software they have flashed onto someones ECU.

  8. #87
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Changing the fuel pressure is one of the worst things you can do on these cars. It knocks out all the calibrations, and will probably end up throwing a fuel trim exceeded comment.

    The ECU is doing exactly what it being asked to do, there is nothing wrong with any hardware here, just a lack of understanding.

    Rick

  9. #88
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    update - Jim has been in contact with OCT-Tuning who supplied the map which is on my car they are refusing to take any blame for my lean fuel even after Jim has sent them my logs and also telling them my car should be 0.85 not 0.95 after my last email with all the information you guys put up. They are saying it is my hardware and not there map and refusing to budge on the matter which Jim agrees is not right in this case.

    Jim has offered to put my car back to a stock map and them custom map it himself which i feel is a fair outcome.


    someone mentioned off this forum to unplug my n75 to keep boost low till sorted as well just double checking this would be ok ?
    Last edited by djx11b; 15th February 2012 at 14:28.

  10. #89
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    wow, so OCT tuning have just shot themselves in the foot as far as customer service and apparent technical understanding goes?

    surely they can see that it is the map thats actually requesting the lean lamda? the hardware is doing what its told to do

    anyway sounds like a good plan to get Jim to map it for you
    Alex S3 AMK
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  11. #90
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    replies Jim had from oct tuning have not been much help at all



    Last edited by djx11b; 15th February 2012 at 15:32.

  12. #91
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    I will be interested to see what Star now do with regard to their relationship with OCT tuning based on his last response. At least they (Star) are finally now in agreement that its not a hardware issue !

    I had a look on the OCT tuning website and they look quite reputable, but then again its easy to build an awesome looking website and have no knowledge of anything else LOL

  13. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by djx11b View Post
    update - Jim has been in contact with OCT-Tuning who supplied the map which is on my car they are refusing to take any blame for my lean fuel even after Jim has sent them my logs and also telling them my car should be 0.85 not 0.95 after my last email with all the information you guys put up. They are saying it is my hardware and not there map and refusing to budge on the matter which Jim agrees is not right in this case.

    Jim has offered to put my car back to a stock map and them custom map it himself which i feel is a fair outcome.


    someone mentioned off this forum to unplug my n75 to keep boost low till sorted as well just double checking this would be ok ?
    Result mate... props to Jim and Star for sorting this out and his offer... if this thread has done nothing but bring awareness to others that not all remaps are equal then thats all good...

    Just had a read of OCT's website and they bang on about the maps using phrases such as 'Constant emissions values', 'Consumption-optimized' and 'TÜV certification'

    This could go some way to explaining the rationale behind the fuelling strategy they are using as VAG use 0.95 lambda for a reason and thats for emissions and economy etc... maybe enriching the fuel means they can't get TUV approval and in Germany etc thats required for tuning products...

    Either way at least its getting sorted out and thats the main thing

    <tuffty/>
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  14. #93
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Actually, this map won't do any damage. It is using the exact strategy that Audi used originally. The EGT is only modelled on this ECU, it does not use a physical sensor. The EGT model will add fuel when the modelled temperature rises, - this can be seen in action in this log. Audi did it like this because the engine produced its required power, and boost levels were very consertive, emissions and fuel consumption are reduced. When boost is increased, the temperatures obviously climbs much more quickly.

    The purpose of a remap is usually to optimise the perfomance and response, which is what you are missing out on here.

    Rick

  15. #94
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    I'm confused... Are OCT saying they're map isn't requesting the .95 and therefore its a hardware issue?
    Last edited by beachbuggy; 15th February 2012 at 15:35.

  16. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachbuggy View Post
    I'm confused... Are OCT saying they're map isn't requesting the .95 and therefore its a hardware issue? Djx11b are you able to get a copy of the map, then I can tell you exactly what the Lamfa table is requesting.
    From OCT's response I think thats exactly what they are saying. Additionally they are still saying the map is also only requesting 1.3 bar despite those logs showing just over 1.4 bar requested.

  17. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRST View Post
    Actually, this map won't do any damage. It is using the exact strategy that Audi used originally. The EGT is only modelled on this ECU, it does not use a physical sensor. The EGT model will add fuel when the modelled temperature rises, - this can be seen in action in this log. Audi did it like this because the engine produced its required power, and boost levels were very consertive, emissions and fuel consumption are reduced. When boost is increased, the temperatures obviously climbs much more quickly.

    The purpose of a remap is usually to optimise the perfomance and response, which is what you are missing out on here.

    Rick
    S3's with AMK/BAM engine codes do use an EGT sensor in the turbine housing... there are also modelled EGT's too from what I understand but the logged EGT's are from the probe in the turbo... EGT protection from the probe readings kick in at 920 degrees and then the ECU will pour in fuel (in the low 11's) to bring it all back in check... thats not really an ideal situation here... running 0.95 lambda at the boost levels a remap offers is not the best and relying on EGT protection is not 'tuning' IMO...

    AFR for more power is 12.5 (0.85 lambda)... using 0.95 lambda at 1.3bar or more on a K04 with the std hardware the S3 has will just end up sending EGT's through the roof... why do that intentionally when you can tune to prevent such a scenario?

    <tuffty/>
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  18. #97
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    edited
    Last edited by djx11b; 15th February 2012 at 15:36.

  19. #98
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    so there saying your 3 bar FPR is hacking into the ECU and changing the lamda request tables?
    Alex S3 AMK
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  20. #99
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    have edited my posts about any email i got.

    Jim knows about this post and just asked that i mentioned it was not his remap and oct tuning that was the problem

    happy with his help on the matter as getting there

    james

  21. #100
    sideways steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex C View Post
    so there saying your 3 bar FPR is hacking into the ECU and changing the lamda request tables?
    LOL Its one of these new fancy magic FPR's that is linked into the ECU wirelessly. LOL

  22. #101
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    yeah the little FPR promoted it self to big fat controller
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  23. #102
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    S3's with AMK/BAM engine codes do use an EGT sensor in the turbine housing... there are also modelled EGT's too from what I understand but the logged EGT's are from the probe in the turbo... EGT protection from the probe readings kick in at 920 degrees and then the ECU will pour in fuel (in the low 11's) to bring it all back in check... thats not really an ideal situation here... running 0.95 lambda at the boost levels a remap offers is not the best and relying on EGT protection is not 'tuning' IMO...

    AFR for more power is 12.5 (0.85 lambda)... using 0.95 lambda at 1.3bar or more on a K04 with the std hardware the S3 has will just end up sending EGT's through the roof... why do that intentionally when you can tune to prevent such a scenario?

    <tuffty/>
    Yes, just realised this is an EGT sensor equipped derivative. EGT sensor feedback uses a PID loop and can send the car into the 9's lol, it feels like someone has pulled the handrake up. It is saving a lot of engines though!

    Rick

  24. #103
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    should i do this as might not get chance for a week or 2 to get back up to star or am i ok to potter about very slowly till then -

    someone mentioned off this forum to unplug my n75 to keep boost low till sorted as well just double checking this would be ok ?

  25. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by djx11b View Post
    should i do this as might not get chance for a week or 2 to get back up to star or am i ok to potter about very slowly till then -

    someone mentioned off this forum to unplug my n75 to keep boost low till sorted as well just double checking this would be ok ?
    TBH as long as you are not spanking the car you will be fine... the trouble with this is more long term damage than anything else... getting hot all the time will mean EGT protection coming in more often and sooner in the rev range... this can lead to bore wash and excessive ring wear etc (I should know as I have had this myself...)... other long term damage would be cracked turbo housing and manifold... yes they do all crack eventually but the housings I have seen from cars that run hot are a mess...

    Just drive normally and you will be fine...

    <tuffty/>
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  26. #105
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    thanks have been driving like a granny since finding out about logs anyway and don't go far either so will be ok.

  27. #106
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    Hopefully I am not going to get in trouble but here is another pro tuned Lamfa map. The reason I wont get in trouble is that stock!

    Last edited by beachbuggy; 15th February 2012 at 22:54.

  28. #107
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    Will PM you dan !
    Last edited by sideways steve; 15th February 2012 at 18:42.

  29. #108
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    This new layout doesn't help posted images does it lol...

    That map on mine in tuner pro is in the 0.85's... WinOLS presents it a little differently as I am not sure the axis are right in tuner pro (prob the XDF I am using)...

    <tuffty/>
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  30. #109
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    X axis is wrong in that definition, as well as 99% i've seen which goes a long way to explaining why people don't tune LAMFA properly.

    Rick

  31. #110
    sideways steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by <tuffty/> View Post
    This new layout doesn't help posted images does it lol...

    That map on mine in tuner pro is in the 0.85's... WinOLS presents it a little differently as I am not sure the axis are right in tuner pro (prob the XDF I am using)...

    <tuffty/>
    Are you talking about the image beachbuggy posted here or something else ?
    Last edited by sideways steve; 15th February 2012 at 19:02.

  32. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by sideways steve View Post
    Are you talking about the image beachbuggy posted here or something else ?
    The image... as Rick has mentioned the axis is wrong as IIRC in WinOLS its the other way around and the values sit in the last column representation of the table

    <tuffty/>
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  33. #112
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    Sorry about the delay on this everyone, here are the logs.

    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#0000FF
    djx11b[/COLOR];1491468]
    Friday 10 February 2012 18:17:57
    8N0 906 018 J 1.8L R4/5VT 0003
    Group A: '112 Group B: '118 Group C: '031
    Temperature Load Bin. Bits Bin. Bits RPM Temperature Load Absolute Pres. Lambda Factor Lambda Factor Bin. Bits Bin. Bits
    TIME TIME TIME
    Marker STAMP °C % STAMP /min °C % mbar STAMP
    0.4 525 0 0.9 800 21 0 1010 0.01 1.023 0.992
    1.71 520 0 2.21 1160 21 94.5 1050 1.31 0.899 0.992
    3.03 530 0 3.43 2560 18 0 1320 2.63 0.953 0.992
    4.32 560 0 4.74 2000 18 94.5 1220 3.82 0.992 0.992
    5.54 590 0 5.94 2480 16 0 1250 5.14 1.008 0.992
    6.75 630 0 7.15 2000 17 94.5 1280 6.34 0.984 0.984
    8.05 650 0 8.45 2520 18 94.5 1670 7.55 0.961 0.953
    9.36 680 0 9.76 3280 18 74.1 2140 8.86 0.953 0.953
    10.67 750 0 11.07 4160 18 77.3 2240 10.27 0.938 0.953
    11.87 795 0 12.27 4960 20 79.6 2290 11.47 0.953 0.953
    13.18 855 0 13.58 5760 22 80.4 2210 12.69 0.93 0.953
    14.4 905 0 14.8 6320 24 78 2110 13.98 0.938 0.953
    15.69 945 5.1 16.11 6840 27 79.2 2120 15.29 0.953 0.953
    17.02 975 16.1 17.5 7040 26 0 1390 16.61 0.821 0.821
    18.32 970 0 18.72 6560 24 0 1090 17.9 0.914 0.961
    19.61 935 0 20.01 5800 25 0 1060 19.12 1.991 1.047
    20.93 855 0 21.33 4600 25 0 1040 20.43 1.991 1.047
    22.13 790 0 22.54 2840 24 0 1040 21.73 1.991 1.047
    23.44 725 0 23.84 2480 24 0 1040 23.02 1.991 1.047
    24.73 675 0 25.13 2320 24 0 1040 24.24 1.991 1.047
    26.06 640 0 26.46 1840 24 0 1030 25.57 1.991 1.047
    27.26 610 0 27.66 1000 24 0 1020 26.84 1.991 1.047
    28.46 600 0 28.86 760 24 0 1020 28.06 1.554 0.945
    29.66 595 0 30.08 720 23 0 1010 29.26 1.016 0.945
    30.97 590 0 31.37 720 23 0 1010 30.48 0.938 0.945


    MILLERMK1

    Group A:
    '112 Group B: '118 Group C: '031
    Exhaust Gas Enrichment Factor Bin. Bits Bin. Bits Engine Speed Intake Air Boost Pressure Boost Pressure Lambda Control Lambda Control
    TIME Temperature Bank 1 Sensor Bank 1 TIME (G28) Temperature (G42) Control (N75) (actual) TIME Bank 1 (actual) Bank 1 (specified)
    STAMP °C % STAMP /min °C % mbar STAMP
    0.59 495 0 0.01 1600 24 0 1040 0.29 0.977 0.992
    1.5 505 0 0.9 1520 23 0 1070 1.21 0.977 0.992
    2.41 525 0 1.81 1880 21 0 1130 2.11 0.86 0.984
    3.32 535 0 2.7 1480 22 0 1080 3.01 1.008 0.992
    4.21 545 0 3.62 1840 21 0 1140 3.92 0.992 0.992
    5.13 560 0 4.52 1720 20 0 1110 4.82 0.906 0.992
    6.03 565 0 5.43 1480 21 0 1070 5.73 1 0.992
    6.94 570 0 6.33 1640 21 0 1090 6.65 0.961 0.992
    7.84 570 0 7.26 1680 21 0 1050 7.53 1.016 0.992
    8.84 570 0 8.14 1760 21 0 1050 8.46 1.023 0.992
    9.75 575 0 9.15 1920 21 94.5 1130 9.44 0.961 0.992
    10.67 585 0 10.05 2200 20 94.5 1350 10.35 0.984 0.992
    11.56 610 0 10.98 2560 18 94.5 1650 11.26 0.984 0.992
    12.47 665 0 11.86 2960 18 94.5 2090 12.16 1.023 0.992
    13.38 715 0 12.77 3480 18 91.8 2540 13.07 0.977 0.984
    14.39 785 0 13.67 4040 18 92.9 2510 13.99 0.953 0.961
    15.29 825 0 14.68 4680 19 94.1 2310 14.99 0.953 0.945
    16.31 850 0 15.6 5160 20 94.5 2230 15.92 0.945 0.945
    17.23 875 0 16.59 5680 21 94.5 2130 16.92 0.938 0.945
    18.31 900 0 17.61 6120 24 94.5 2060 17.93 0.945 0.953
    19.21 915 0 18.61 6520 26 94.5 2080 18.92 1.016 0.953
    20.33 940 11 19.55 6800 27 83.9 2160 19.94 0.86 0.867
    21.32 950 20 20.64 6440 28 0 1490 20.95 0.93 0.805
    22.23 920 8.2 21.64 5320 28 86.7 1970 21.92 0.75 0.813

  34. #113
    sideways steve's Avatar
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    Looks like another requesting stock lambda value and hitting EGT protection when the temp goes above 920 degrees although on this log its easier to see it doing it towards the bottom.

  35. #114
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    wow, it really does shovel fuel in there when it gets hot
    Alex S3 AMK
    Bilstein B8s, H&R Springs, Neuspeed ARBs, Genuine 18" BBS LMs & LCR Brembos

  36. #115
    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.'s Avatar
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    Yes, same as the other tune, it's bad.

    Rick

  37. #116
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    I will mention this to Jim tomorrow when speaking to him as it will help him with ot tuning.

    two different cars so both can't have the same hardware issue that they claim.

    thanks for uploading the logs

  38. #117
    sideways steve's Avatar
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    They also both have different maps albeit from the same company so surely they cannot both be OCT generic maps ? Boost request is completely different between the two.

  39. #118
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    From what i'm told millermk1 remap was done over 4 years ago so would be a different version of the map perhaps.

  40. #119
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    Yeh that would make sense, I would still be interested to know if it was still an OCT one though and if so why they reduced the boost on it. Perhaps OCT themselves had issues and dropped the boost to make it more reliable ? Who knows !

  41. #120
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    maybe it was running too lean
    Alex S3 AMK
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