Hybrid Turbo K04

[jam333]

hi what else is realy needed to get the best out of the hybrid turbo. i hear that a xs power manifold and 3 inch down pipe but what else should be done sud i be thinking about an intercooler. turbo timer?

[StaceyS3]

Intercooler, 3" tip with decent filter (would recommend the badger 5 tip) and possibly WMi to get good gains out of it but would certinally recommend putting a set of forged rods in the engine

There is of coarse an endless list of mods you can do but these are a good place to start at

[16Klappe]

Yes you will need an FMIC for a hybrid to run happily, you won't need a turbo timer though. If driven responsibly you shouldn't ever need a turbo timer.

Fitting a hybrid without any internal upgrades is pushing your luck, Bill at Badger 5 is the man to talk too if you are serious about doing it.

There are some very good threads on here with great info on fitting a hybrid, do a bit of a search. In the mean time this is a good read on SCN -

k04 Hybrid for 210/225 owners, LCR/TT/S3 etc-330bhp achieved!! - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

"fail to plan, plan to fail"

[jam333]

i was looking at backdraft motorsport site at there BDM K04 Hybrid Turbo. where do you buy the bader5 tip from and how much

[16Klappe]

i was looking at backdraft motorsport site at there BDM K04 Hybrid Turbo. where do you buy the bader5 tip from and how much

Badger5...badger5 - Google Search

Personally I would ring Bill, and talk him through your application and he will talk you through what is possible, what is probable, costings and your best way to achieve it. Buying a hybrid and slapping it on is only half of the work, if you speak to a specialist like Bill you will get first class service and will be working with somebody who knows what they are doing.

Have you considered the fact that you will need to install rods to safely achieve the stated powers of a hybrid?

What sort of power are you looking for? Why are you looking to do this work?

[<tuffty/>]

Badger5...badger5 - Google Search

Personally I would ring Bill, and talk him through your application and he will talk you through what is possible, what is probable, costings and your best way to achieve it. Buying a hybrid and slapping it on is only half of the work, if you speak to a specialist like Bill you will get first class service and will be working with somebody who knows what they are doing.

Have you considered the fact that you will need to install rods to safely achieve the stated powers of a hybrid?

What sort of power are you looking for? Why are you looking to do this work?

Don't forget Bill has his own section on ASN now...

Badger 5

<tuffty/>

[<tuffty/>]

hi what else is realy needed to get the best out of the hybrid turbo. i hear that a xs power manifold and 3 inch down pipe but what else should be done sud i be thinking about an intercooler. turbo timer?

Hi and welcome to ASN...

There are quite a few threads on this here, search for users Welly and Dane for a start (use the advance search system)

Turbo timer is a pointless addition as the S3's have after run water pumps..

Basics are..
Decent FMIC (large ebay cooler or Welly cooler as its now know or AH Fabs V2... see the stickies for more info on FMIC's
3" downpipe...
Custom mapping (not stage 1/2)
Rods...
550cc injectors

To get the best from it...
Large port head (AEB/AGU etc)
Water Methanol Injection (WMI)
XS Power manifold
Badger 5 80mm TIP
Jetex filter (and heatshield if you prefer)

Bill @ Badger 5 has done a fair few of these now...

<tuffty/>

[Jimgrim77]

Like everyone says above...Mani, rods, tip, fmic, downpipe all necessary.

My hybrid goes on tomorrow with xs power mani. Should be interesting.

Good luck with your build.

[Welly]

(large ebay cooler or Welly cooler as its now known)

LOL. That always makes me smile....

Exact size is: 600x300x76mm (FMIC FFRONT MOUNT TURBO INTERCOOLER TYPE B 600x300x76MM | eBay)

[jam333]

that fmic that you have show on ebay will need pipes and fittings where abouts do i get them from do you know any kits that will go with that item welly. basicly i have got my engine out and it seems a shame not to basicaly do what iv always wanted to du make it a flying machine im not in a massive rush to get it back tagether and im looking at the options

[<tuffty/>]

that fmic that you have show on ebay will need pipes and fittings where abouts do i get them from do you know any kits that will go with that item welly. basicly i have got my engine out and it seems a shame not to basicaly do what iv always wanted to du make it a flying machine im not in a massive rush to get it back tagether and im looking at the options

Loads of FMIC info in the stickies.... lets keep this thread on topic...

<tuffty/>

[jam333]

what rods sre needed and where is the best place to purchase these

[Welly]

what rods sre needed and where is the best place to purchase these

Most people use Integrated Engineering rods, but there are a fair few on the market these days, Scat and Brute amongst others make rods for the 1.8 20v T.

I'd go with the IE ones as that's what I have fitted. Advisable following others experiences to fit rifle drilled versions.

[<tuffty/>]

Bill @ Bagder 5 sells them... Badger 5 on ASN

Normally keeps Brute or Integrated Engineering rods... S3 will need 20mm rods (reference to the gudgeon pin size)

<tuffty/>

[jam333]

Integrated Engineering VW 1.8t Forged Rods For Late 1.8 Turbo Engines 20v 19mm Audi are these the boys you are talking about even tho they are 19mm

[<tuffty/>]

Yarp...

<tuffty/>

[badger5]

S3 have 144x20 rods..
in stock with me in either rifle drilled or non-rifle drilled.
£289 non, £389 with
+vat & delivery

[jam333]

sent you a email badger to your work email. what is the diffence between the too and what du du get with the extra 100 quid

[liquids3]

And what power bhp would you recomend rods??

[Jimgrim77]

And what power bhp would you recomend rods??

To be honest, Bhp is too narrow a focus as there is far more at play like psi and torque to consider.

It also depends on how aggressive the mapping is but the rods can go at any time and quite low bhp figures.

I will be continuing to limit and manage at under 300lb of torque until the rods are done.

Any more and I'll be putting it under too much duress I imagine.

Reliable and consistent performance delivery is my aim though.

[<tuffty/>]

And what power bhp would you recomend rods??

Its not hp that bends them... its torque... this has been discussed more times than I care to remember tbh mate and all it ever does is create a bun fight...

K03/4/hybrids are spikey in boost deliver... combination of that and more timing advance creates extremely high cylinder pressures that puts a lot of stress on the rods... our cars are old (regardless of mileage) and the stress of this level of tuning requires rods IMO...

Please have a search for the other threads but if this one turns into another 'rods' thread I'll just delete them... lets keep it on topic

<tuffty/>

[<tuffty/>]

sent you a email badger to your work email. what is the diffence between the too and what du du get with the extra 100 quid

Rifle drilling provides an oil way like the OEM rods to feed oil to the small end bushes... these tend to provide better reliability under certain circumstances... non rifle drilled rely on the oil squirters

<tuffty/>

[liquids3]

Thanks!,i will be in contact as wel then,another thing out the way then and not a bad price really!,thanks for replys,some of us are more new to more engine work mods!,thanks!,will book in for remap at some point as wel!(with front bumper of)!

[<tuffty/>]

Thanks!,i will be in contact as wel then,another thing out the way then and not a bad price really!,thanks for replys,some of us are more new to more engine work mods!,thanks!,will book in for remap at some point as wel!(with front bumper of)!

No probs mate... the 'rod' debate always seems to bring the worst out of people lol...

<tuffty/>

[16Klappe]

K03/4/hybrids are spikey in boost deliver... combination of that and more timing advance creates extremely high cylinder pressures that puts a lot of stress on the rods... our cars are old (regardless of mileage) and the stress of this level of tuning requires rods IMO...

Have you seen the log of Prawns hybrid, on day one of it's tune?

[<tuffty/>]

Have you seen the log of Prawns hybrid, on day one of it's tune?

Yes

<tuffty/>

[Prawn]

All I can say is that you REALLY need an XS power/relentless manifold on there with a hybrid, the gains to be had are simply insane.

[jam333]

what is the differance with the stage 1 2 3 hybrid turbos except the power too the one that backdraft motorsport offer

[<tuffty/>]

what is the differance with the stage 1 2 3 hybrid turbos except the power too the one that backdraft motorsport offer

The only one worth getting is one built with the 2283 comp wheel...

CR Turbos I know do these as Bill @ Badger 5 has done a few and has defined his own spec for the ones he fits... in Wellys S3 with all the usual mods it made between 330hp and 340hp

All this stage nonsense is just that... nonsense IMO... having been involved in most of the builds on this section of the forum where hybrids have been used I can say just buy one with that comp wheel and be done... there are all sorts of power claims with these but the 2283 is proven... have loads of data for it... its even been used in a K03 and made over 320hp...

<tuffty/>

[Jimgrim77]

The only one worth getting is one built with the 2283 comp wheel...

CR Turbos I know do these as Bill @ Badger 5 has done a few and has defined his own spec for the ones he fits... in Wellys S3 with all the usual mods it made between 330hp and 340hp

All this stage nonsense is just that... nonsense IMO... having been involved in most of the builds on this section of the forum where hybrids have been used I can say just buy one with that comp wheel and be done... there are all sorts of power claims with these but the 2283 is proven... have loads of data for it... its even been used in a K03 and made over 320hp...

<tuffty/>

Great post!

[liquids3]

The only one worth getting is one built with the 2283 comp wheel...

CR Turbos I know do these as Bill @ Badger 5 has done a few and has defined his own spec for the ones he fits... in Wellys S3 with all the usual mods it made between 330hp and 340hp

All this stage nonsense is just that... nonsense IMO... having been involved in most of the builds on this section of the forum where hybrids have been used I can say just buy one with that comp wheel and be done... there are all sorts of power claims with these but the 2283 is proven... have loads of data for it... its even been used in a K03 and made over 320hp...

<tuffty/>

Im getting a 2280 comp (hybrid) made,because the 2283 is rarely avalible i think!,is this a bad idea?

[beachbuggy]

Tuffty,

The 2283 is a great wheel, beautifully made and can flow immense amount of air. I've shown this to my machine guy and he was stunned by the complexity and work involved to make this wheel and for the price it's amazing.

All this said it is still over kill for the humble k04. Problems with surge and small exhaust housings make it a little to powerful. Yes 344bhp can be achieved but this was a one off, a practical 310-320bhp in my opinion is about right for this turbo, others may disagree. With this in mind the 2280 compressor is more than capable of this, however nobody wants a lower spec hybrid turbo, why spend £800 on a hybrid when for £900 you can have the top spec one! I agree with this but also think the some companies down play the 2280 when fitting to stage 1 turbos to warrant the extra cost of the 2283 compressor when actually it costs £18 more to buy! Call me cynical but I've learnt a lot about the business of hybrids I would be very interested in seeing what similar spec hybrids, 1 with a 2280 and the other a 2283 do side by side.

I agree staging turbos is just a marketing tool. Fact is it pretty much costs the same to build a stage 1 than a stage 4!

[jam333]

where is the cheapest place to buy a hybrid turbo

[Chlippo]

Fact is it pretty much costs the same to build a stage 1 than a stage 4!

100% agree with you on this one!

So while getting an hybrid...get the best of it or keep it stock

[liquids3]

Tuffty,

The 2283 is a great wheel, beautifully made and can flow immense amount of air. I've shown this to my machine guy and he was stunned by the complexity and work involved to make this wheel and for the price it's amazing.

All this said it is still over kill for the humble k04. Problems with surge and small exhaust housings make it a little to powerful. Yes 344bhp can be achieved but this was a one off, a practical 310-320bhp in my opinion is about right for this turbo, others may disagree. With this in mind the 2280 compressor is more than capable of this, however nobody wants a lower spec hybrid turbo, why spend £800 on a hybrid when for £900 you can have the top spec one! I agree with this but also think the some companies down play the 2280 when fitting to stage 1 turbos to warrant the extra cost of the 2283 compressor when actually it costs £18 more to buy! Call me cynical but I've learnt a lot about the business of hybrids I would be very interested in seeing what similar spec hybrids, 1 with a 2280 and the other a 2283 do side by side.

I agree staging turbos is just a marketing tool. Fact is it pretty much costs the same to build a stage 1 than a stage 4!

by the way im not slating what you have said to me,im on a learning curve!,you and tufty have the knowledge,im asking,just want the best power for money,and you have given me a great price!

[Jimgrim77]

where is the cheapest place to buy a hybrid turbo

I can understand why but I really don't think that it's about which is cheapest but, like stated by the key men on this site, components are the key.

[badger5]

sent you a email badger to your work email. what is the diffence between the too and what du du get with the extra 100 quid

OE rods are rifle drilled.. cheaper firged are not and rely on splash lubrication to lubricate the small ends.. This in my experience is not 100%, as some installs have a faint small end rattle over time as the small end pin wears due to inadequate lubrication.

Rifle Drilled forged rods have pressure fed oil to the small end like OE... which to me is my favoured rod. It costs more to get this done hence price is more.

There is NO MAGIC SAFE POWER/TORQUE FIGURE where you can be guaranteed rods will be ok...
these engines/cars are 10 years old and have done 1000's of cycles...

It is FOOLISH to think that sub x bhp and y torque its "ok"
Dream on... and hope luck is on your side.. cos thats what you are riding.

[sambryant]

OE rods are rifle drilled.. cheaper firged are not and rely on splash lubrication to lubricate the small ends.. This in my experience is not 100%, as some installs have a faint small end rattle over time as the small end pin wears due to inadequate lubrication.

Rifle Drilled forged rods have pressure fed oil to the small end like OE... which to me is my favoured rod. It costs more to get this done hence price is more.

There is NO MAGIC SAFE POWER/TORQUE FIGURE where you can be guaranteed rods will be ok...
these engines/cars are 10 years old and have done 1000's of cycles...

It is FOOLISH to think that sub x bhp and y torque its "ok"
Dream on... and hope luck is on your side.. cos thats what you are riding.

when buying rod please go for the rifle drilled. i made the mistake of buying non rifle drilled and had a nightmare trying to get them drilled. bills prices for rifle drilled rods are very good indeed

[Jimgrim77]

What is the price for Rods and fitment?

They will be next.

Thanks

[badger5]

rod price will depend on what type you wanted....
fitting you are into ~£450+vat region plus parts as a guide price

[aragorn]

I imported my drilled Brute rods from pagparts, as at the time Bill was only doing the undrilled IE ones and i wanted rifle drilled, which no-one in the UK seemed to be able to supply.

Cost me $606 for the rods and a set of ACL big end bearings (£381 at todays exchange rates) plus another chunk on top for VAT and import duty (from memory this was another 50-60quid), so probably somewhere in the region of £440 for the rods and bearings.

AFAIK bill does now stock the Brute rods, and his prices are pretty similar from what i've seen.

[Jimgrim77]

rod price will depend on what type you wanted....
fitting you are into ~£450+vat region plus parts as a guide price

Great. Many thanks. with rifle drilled...about a £1000 ish then.

[Prawn]

Jim: wern't you going to be giving us results last night? What went wrong fella?

[badger5]

I imported my drilled Brute rods from pagparts, as at the time Bill was only doing the undrilled IE ones and i wanted rifle drilled, which no-one in the UK seemed to be able to supply.

Cost me $606 for the rods and a set of ACL big end bearings (£381 at todays exchange rates) plus another chunk on top for VAT and import duty (from memory this was another 50-60quid), so probably somewhere in the region of £440 for the rods and bearings.

AFAIK bill does now stock the Brute rods, and his prices are pretty similar from what i've seen.

currently IE's in stock.. in rifle and non-rifle drilled

[badger5]

Great. Many thanks. with rifle drilled...about a £1000 ish then.

you are forgetting vat dude..
~£100-£150+vat in other parts required, shells, head bolts, gaskets, oil, coolant etc

[Alais DJA]

Bill, do you stock the xs power manifolds?


( and thanks again for the turbo-back call earlier)
Marcus

[badger5]

no. sorry.

sam bryant has been doing some arranging on these with relentless direct. i think he's got a link in his siggy if you can find it.

[aragorn]

currently IE's in stock.. in rifle and non-rifle drilled

Ah fair play.

TBH IE just messed me about so much, One minute they had AEB specific rods as the standard ones wouldnt clear the IM shaft, those were on back order, then discontinued, then they were supposed to be having new I-Beam ones made which would fit all engines which never seemed to materialise, then when i finally decided just to buy the ones that dont fit properly as i was bored of waiting, they had no stock and no idea when they'd be in.

Luckily i then discovered the Brute ones, which were slightly cheaper, all come rifile drilled as standard and fit the AEB without issue as they're I beam rather than H beam. Arnold at PAG was much better to deal with and everything went through smoothly.

These are the ones i bought:
Connecting Rods - Brute Connecting Rods - VW/Audi Brute 144mm Forged I-beam Connecting Rod Set. Forced Pin Oiling Rifle Dr

[Jimgrim77]

Jim: wern't you going to be giving us results last night? What went wrong fella?

ha..lol. Have to say that I am having a mare of a day but haven't forgotten and should have something in the next few hours to post.

Will try to vids and photos too if i get time but one thing at a time.

Sorry for delay, the car has been on the ramps since monday morning for one reason or another and it's doing my head in.

[Jimgrim77]

you are forgetting vat dude..
~£100-£150+vat in other parts required, shells, head bolts, gaskets, oil, coolant etc

If all in place, what bhp/lb of torque could you perhaps speculate on reliably achieving from 1.8t with a stage 3 hybrid?

Does anyone know?