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  1. #1
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    MTM conversions? For a while now ive wondered why they are soooo expensive

    As above realy.
    The only thing that ever made me even close to like the kits is ( child in me) the external wastegate,
    I tried to look them up on QST and the first thing that confused me was the power figures... All the figures on the kits are 4bhp more than it says in the next kits write up...
    Why would it cost £6100 to reach 310bhp?
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

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  3. #2
    jcs356's Avatar
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    Difference is probably a lazy conversion between PS and BHP. Oh, and some of the cost may be due to the fact that the work on the bigger conversions is carried out in Germany so either the whole car of bits thereof have to make it there and back.

    I've got an MTM custom map on my car, was done by Kim back in 2004. In those days there weren't half the companies around that there are now, and even then, MTM was expensive to what the likes of AmD were offering. I chose MTM mainly because of their long history with the VW group, their reputation for innovation, and some great write-ups of their work in the press (remember Safer VW Motoring anyone?)

    Would I choose MTM again - yep.

    IMO the only weak link in the chain is QST itself. Yep, they know their stuff, but from my experience (which has been confirmed by others on here), sometimes they could be a little better/less arrogant when dealing with their customers. However they've stuck around whilst many others have floundered (how many times has AmD changed hands for example).
    Last edited by jcs356; 1st February 2012 at 22:36.
    Jason
    2001 Nogaro S3 (daily driver)

    1958 replica Porsche 356 Speedster (summer posing)
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  4. #3
    superkarl's Avatar
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    They are old and not up to date in the 8l/mk4 scene. Or rather, our cars are to old/not up to date to bother with anymore.

    They stick to what they're good at, being the first to offer an upgrade on new fast audis. Example: Latest RS6.

    Its a niche and probably a highly profitable business tuning brand new high end
    cars

  5. #4
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    staceys mtm kit and service was not good at all..

    anyone advising that egt's over 1000'c are "ok" are not helping their customers at all! daft.... and will kill components, guaranteed. (maybe thats the idea) - And as for custom remapping, they dont offer it now.. Wasted staceys time/money offering this then not doing it.

    Overpriced, overhyped....... outdated.
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  6. #5
    S3 Paul's Avatar
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    I did wonder bill to be honest
    I know PAT on here found that their injectors that where "special design " looked like drilled standard ones,
    The cost is beyond me.
    I mean for that kind of money i would want much more than 340ish bhp, Coupled to a ticking time bomb with EGT's that high,
    Noggy Blue 2001 S3

    I ask questions because i change my mind so much. If i ask questions you have already covered... just leave it be?

  7. #6
    Westy's Avatar
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    Dont even bother with them if you're looking for an 8L tuning kit! They are dinosaurs of 1.8T tuning, so far behind the time that they still fit their kits on cars with standard rods and standard intercoolers and map to try and achieve their claimed figures. Total madness in this day and age with all that we now know about standard rods and coolers.
    8P A3 TDI - 220bhp - 335lbft
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  8. #7
    jcs356's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    They are old and not up to date in the 8l/mk4 scene. Or rather, our cars are to old/not up to date to bother with anymore.

    They stick to what they're good at, being the first to offer an upgrade on new fast audis. Example: Latest RS6.

    Its a niche and probably a highly profitable business tuning brand new high end cars
    Spot on. It's like trying to find someone who does decent N/A VAG remapping (I went to Stealth Racing for the Cordy in the end).
    Jason
    2001 Nogaro S3 (daily driver)

    1958 replica Porsche 356 Speedster (summer posing)
    1997 Seat Cordoba SX 16v (track day toy) replacing (t)rusty 1994 Seat Ibiza GTi RIP

  9. #8
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Paul View Post
    I did wonder bill to be honest
    I know PAT on here found that their injectors that where "special design " looked like drilled standard ones,
    The cost is beyond me.
    I mean for that kind of money i would want much more than 340ish bhp, Coupled to a ticking time bomb with EGT's that high,
    special design... hmmm, std ones with numbers rubbed off?.. is what they looked like and performed like. 4bar reggy reqd on them. They would'nt tell stacey what size they were

    >100% IDC on them after 6.5krpm, runs uber hot
    Code:
    	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'112		Group C:	'118			
    		Engine Speed	Engine Load	Injection Timing	Mass Air Flow		Exhaust Gas	Enrichment Factor		Engine Speed	Intake Air	Boost Pressure	Boost Pressure
    	TIME	(G28)			Sensor (G70)	TIME	Temperature Bank 1	Sensor Bank 1	TIME	(G28)	Temperature (G42)	Control (N75)	(actual)
    Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°C	 %	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
    
    	18.1	1520	48.1	3.4	14.22	18.42	570	0	18.73	1560	31	94.5	1040
    	19.01	1600	82	6.46	25.44	19.32	575	0	19.61	1560	30	94.5	1090
    	19.92	1560	88.7	7.14	28.22	20.23	580	0	20.52	1640	29	94.5	1130
    	20.84	1760	91.7	7.14	32	21.12	590	0	21.42	2000	27	94.5	1200
    	21.73	2160	103.8	8.16	46.42	22.03	605	0	22.34	2480	27	94.5	1350
    	22.64	2600	115.8	8.84	59.94	22.95	625	0	23.24	2840	27	94.5	1560
    	23.54	3000	141.4	11.22	86.53	23.86	650	0	24.14	3240	27	82.7	1960
    	24.44	3400	191.7	14.62	138	24.74	675	0	25.05	3760	29	75.7	2500
    	25.36	3920	191.7	18.7	185.61	25.66	735	0	25.96	4240	29	73.7	2520
    	26.26	4360	191.7	18.7	192.42	26.56	785	0	26.86	4640	30	72.2	2540
    	27.17	4760	191.7	18.02	210.72	27.47	830	0	27.76	4960	30	72.9	2540
    	28.08	5120	191.7	18.36	229	28.37	860	0	28.67	5360	32	75.7	2530
    	28.97	5480	191.7	19.04	254.31	29.28	885	0	29.58	5760	34	79.6	2500
    	29.88	5840	191.7	18.7	262.25	30.18	905	0	30.48	6080	36	83.9	2520
    	30.79	6200	191.7	18.36	270.22	31.09	920	1.6	31.39	6400	37	86.7	2540
    max'd idc	31.69	6520	191.7	19.72	273.75	32.01	930	7.8	32.3	6720	39	85.1	2450
    max'd idc	32.6	6800	191.7	20.4	274.36	32.9	930	9	33.2	7000	42	85.1	2400
    max'd idc	33.5	7080	191.7	20.4	273.33	33.8	925	8.2	34.11	7240	45	84.7	2410
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    http://www.badger5.co.uk, Tel:01453822880
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  10. #9
    sideways steve's Avatar
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    I would be guessing but would say that the cost in the MTM stuff is due to the fact you retain your Audi warranty, so really its only going to be of any benefit if you have a new Audi and is useless if you have something the age of our cars !

    Incidentally they dont have a remap price listed through Audi for the new RS4 as apparently even MTM themselves state its not worth the money as you dont gain much from it. They said you would only get a reasonable gain if you went for the whole package with exhaust, intake etc etc.

  11. #10
    Maz
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    I remember calling them prior to getting my suspension sorted and realised pretty much straight away I was wasting my time. Firstly Hyacinth Bucket answered the phone and I thought I was booking the car in for afternoon tea at the Ritz rather than a suspension upgrade and then Kim told me he didn't recommend the H&R springs because they were prone to snapping and I should opt for the much more expensive MTM springs as they were far superior... I saved myself about £300 and went to APS instead.


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  12. #11
    StaceyS3's Avatar
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    Have to say the service at QST was diabolical after telling me he could map my car, but couldn't use the genesis 550cc injectors that i supplied? That should have sent alarm bells ringing but he made me buy MTMs supplied injectors at cost price which was still £440

    They then put the "base" map on there after we had disscussed that i had future plans with the car (further mods) it was left that i had to sort a few issues out (tiny ah fab v1 giving me 60 degrees plus intake temps) before taking it back for final mapping as no point adjusting timing when ecu is just going to pull it back? This set me back another £600 with the final £200 to pay with the finalised mapping

    Well not long after that the manifold cracked and melted a spark plug bent a rod broke a couple of valves but that admittedly was possibly partially my fault for driving it for 3 months with them inlet temps but i was advised that it was fine to run like that and told even though how much i had read up on here about rods bending that they weren't needed for this kit and never had any problems!

    This then all resulted in a new manifold which was machined slightly different so needed new downpipe or original modiifing (but thats a whole another story) rebore largeport head and AH V2 cooler which i had been waiting for for months, and i made my own custom 3" tip with billet adaptor

    After the rebuild took it to bills for a rr day and the car was running 24psi before hand which is what the map should be at (according to mtm) but with all the extra flow first time run up on bills roller with n75 plugged saw over 32psi and fueling in the 14s

    I then took it to qst the following week for the finalising of the map for kim to admit that he couldn't alter the boost on the map all he could really do was play with timing and one or two other things (which explains why couldn't use any other injectors other than theirs), he said someone would either have to flown in from mtm germany to map £££££ or he could possibly do it but keep taking the eprom out and sending the file to germany to get them to alter then try running again then alter further and edged me towards a custom map

    I fitted a softer spring to the wastegate whilst waiting to try and bring the boost down a touch so it was manageable and we took it out with him driving and me logging to see if everything was ok and although knock was all good as now running about 18psi fueling was in the 14s still and saw egts peak at 1050 in a 4th gear pull and he told me that was fine and sent me on my way

    I hate to think what egts were at when it was running 24 psi with the 60 degree plus inlet temps or what they were at >32psi needless to say i wont ever be using them again and wont reconmend them to anyone!

    I was very unexperianced before hand and really didn't know much about these cars and was relying on tuners advise be it right or wrong!

    I have learnt a massive amount about these in a very short time and had a great deal of help from bill with probably 10-20 phone calls a week during the 3 month build process (which i think he got rather fed up of) lol, and needless to say i know where i will always be taking it now even though its 200 miles away and thats BADGER 5

    I did get a £300 refund from QST once i had returned the MTM eprom but that really doesn't make up for the buggering about

    Big thanks to Bill and sorry about the essay and big moan but felt i needed to get that off of my chest
    Power & Torque 335bhp 285ftlb
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  13. #12
    beachbuggy's Avatar
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    My god that all beggars believe, and from a pro tuning company?!!!

    So I guess they couldn't use your 550's as they didn't know how to or couldn't change the relative flow to injector time on the map, which may explain why they had to use their injectors along with all the fueling maps because that was what on the map already.. But surely they knew how to adjust boost?!

    And as for the timing where they just +/- degrees across the whole map or where they able to do it at particular parts?

    It does beg the question though how they get away with it.

    sorry to hear about the problems you had, sounds a right expensive ball ache.

  14. #13
    StaceyS3's Avatar
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    Yeah cost me *** fortune and still paying for it

    He did say on the final meeting that he couldn't alter the actual map as in boost, fueling etc but said he could alter the timing which by the sound of things was across the whole rev range (unisettings type software???) any actual changes he said he didn't know how to alter MTM's code so file had to be sent back and forth being tweeked each time or the MTM mapping guy had to come to the UK and they still use solder in piggyback boards to this date and not gone over to OBD port mapping yet?

    He did say that his son is currently studing some form of IT software/programming and the plan is once he finishs UNI/college he will do QST custom maps and they will be going over to OBD mapping but said hes not able to deal with revo etc due to the companys ties with MTM?

    One other thing that wouldn't of helped i thought i was running a 4 bar reg before it went horribly wrong as AMD Essex said they put one in with Stage 2 Revo but when i rebuilt it all and cleaned my injectors and fpr in ultrasonic cleaning tank i noticed that it was still a 3bar reg in there and when i checked old invoices (> year old) for stage 2 map i had previously been charged for a 4 bar fpr so wasn't happy

    But did buy a 4 bar fpr before going to qst and that didn't make any difference to fueling because as Bill pointed out on the rr day the map was requesting 14s
    Power & Torque 335bhp 285ftlb
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  15. #14
    Maz
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    Sorry to hear your woes, that is terrible and reading this is enough to put anyone off going to MTM...
    ...have you been in touch with MTM HQ in Germany at all? I'm sure they would like to hear your thoughts on this and how badly their sole UK supplier treats their customers.

    WTF, Did I read that right, AMD charged you for something they didn't actually fit?? Shocking, that's seriosuly F'd up.


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  16. #15
    StaceyS3's Avatar
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    I know and by the time i had realised it was a bit to late (nearly 2 years later) and i know they used to put 4 bar regs in with stage 2 but they obviously didn't with mine?

    Not really crossed my mind about contacting them direct not sure if can be arsed now to be honest just glad its all running properly now
    Power & Torque 335bhp 285ftlb
    0-60 4.64 1/4 mile 13.02
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  17. #16
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    My s3 had the mtm big turbo kit on.
    it was running 320bhp with no problems at all with me driving it hard...
    one thing i will say though, the injectors did have the numbers rubbed off? which i found weird! The installation was neat and tidy, mind.

  18. #17
    Westy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3matty View Post
    My s3 had the mtm big turbo kit on.
    it was running 320bhp with no problems at all with me driving it hard...
    one thing i will say though, the injectors did have the numbers rubbed off? which i found weird! The installation was neat and tidy, mind.
    Did you ever see what you air intake temps were or what the fuelling was doing on the map?
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