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  1. #1
    Paradox1's Avatar
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    k04 power difference?

    ok not a typical turbo thread. I'm just wondering if anyone knows why a cupra will get a overall highee bhp and tq from the same k04 compared to a a3? I've seen loads of cupras and s3's claiming up to 280 on a stage 2 k04 setup but I have never seen a a3/golf gti get above 260. anyone know why this is?

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    Dyno lottery... and different mods... its that simple... LCR/S3/TT 210/225 engines are mechanically the same...

    Don't get hung up on figures... they are subjective at best and subject to far too many variances to be a true comparison of like for like...

    Only way to compare is same dyno, same day... you make what you make and the other car makes what it makes...

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    one thing I've learnt is that dyno's are the biggest con

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    it's simply down to the tuners really mate, and mileage probably has a factor in it too.

    Many of the seats seem to be very low mileage, compared to almost all the audis being well over 100k, so that's got to play a part in it,

    Also, many of the Seat boys like to go to places like AMD and jabba who have hapy rollers who give everyone massive figures, where as the audi owners tend to go to places like Bill or JKM who have very realistic dynos, and don't give the happy figures people like to see.
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    prawn how much can the different sets of rollers be out though!!!
    seriously 10 15 20 30 bhp ????
    Surely these have to be calibrated to a certain specification
    I would have thought AMD would want there's to be spot on as the dyno the AMD touring car?
    I mean if there aiming for a figure an there at a competitive level surely it wouldn't be worth if the dyno is as you say "dyno happy"
    I'd be interested to try a dyno at say bills then one at AMD ????
    s there a possibility that it could be the other way round?
    Last edited by AARON77; 20th January 2012 at 11:35.

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    Prawns been to a few rollers and had various readings on his car. Think it was the torque figures that varied the most. Some reading 290 some reading 270. Cant remember the finer details though.

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    One thing that hasnt been said yet is s3's and cupras have a K04 turbo and a3's and golfs have a K03 turbo which is smaller!
    Ive been Badger 5'd

    Can we break the magic 300?????? In a word Yes 314 BHP 249 lbft at Badger 5

    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    steves is way quicker than any stock turbo'd s3 i have driven
    I only date skinny Women! They keep my power to weight higher...

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    My K04 turbo is only 7 months old and produced 326lbft of torque 3 weeks ago at Bill's. One of, if not the largest torque figure he'd seen from a standard K04. I put that down to it being a brand new turbo and Bill not seeing too many fresh plain K04 units.

    Also bare in mind that the turbo was only running about 25psi so has a little more to give, especially when the manifold goes on
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    My K04 turbo is only 7 months old and produced 326lbft of torque 3 weeks ago at Bill's. One of, if not the largest torque figure he'd seen from a standard K04. I put that down to it being a brand new turbo and Bill not seeing too many fresh plain K04 units.

    Also bare in mind that the turbo was only running about 25psi so has a little more to give, especially when the manifold goes on
    That torque is quite amazing! Really makes me think twice about potential hybrid now.

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    i would it makes you think more about rods first tho

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    Paradox1's Avatar
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    thanks lads,just thought the cupra boys had something special lol. so what us the max a safe limit of a k04 turbo. may upgrade as I'm on a stage 2 k03s atm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox1 View Post
    thanks lads,just thought the cupra boys had something special lol. so what us the max a safe limit of a k04 turbo. may upgrade as I'm on a stage 2 k03s atm
    What do you mean by "safe limit"?
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  14. #13
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    By K04 do you mean an actual K04 like S3'/LCR's etc use or K04 hydrids designed to be a 'bolt-on' upgrade to a K03 as there will be differences there...

    A lot of the Ibiza boys on SCN run K04 hybrids (technically a K03 hybrid) with good results but they can vary too...

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    Prawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AARON77 View Post
    prawn how much can the different sets of rollers be out though!!!
    seriously 10 15 20 30 bhp ????
    Surely these have to be calibrated to a certain specification
    I would have thought AMD would want there's to be spot on as the dyno the AMD touring car?
    I mean if there aiming for a figure an there at a competitive level surely it wouldn't be worth if the dyno is as you say "dyno happy"
    I'd be interested to try a dyno at say bills then one at AMD ????
    s there a possibility that it could be the other way round?
    Dyno results can vary MASSIVELY from dyno to dyno mate, there's a famous dyno in the Mini scene that tends to read 20-25bhp higher than any other, and that's on 100bhp cars!

    DaveB's old A3 dyno'd 254bhp at Storm and made 225 at JKM 3 weeks later.

    Torque can vary even more though, my daily dyno'd 224bhp / 233lbft at Bills, then in exactly the same atmospheric conditions, it ran 216bhp / 268lbft at Regal, so that's 33lbft difference!

    The dyno operator can basically get the dyno to read what he wants to, I remember seeing a chipped UK power increase claim with 2 different dyno plots, one done at about 6 degrees ambient temp with a correction factor around 1.0, one done with the dyno suggesting the temp was 62 degrees and a correction factor of about 1.25 so elevating the bhp by about 25%!

    needless to say someone noticed the ambients in the small print and called him on it, and it cost him credibility

    Dyno figures, unless done on the same dyno, same operator, same gear, and preferable same day or at least similar ambient temps, are totally useless to compare!
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    Things like this that Rtech were talking about when i went there. They log on Vagcom at the same time so get both readings. Mine was 199.3bhp using the 0.8 rule from Vagcom and on the rollers made 199.7bhp.

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    airflow /.8 is a guide..

    get into bigger bhp cars and this guide does'nt apply so readily. only on stage 1,2 cars

    there are many dyno's which measure only atw figures then "add" a % depending on what the operator told the software was on the rollers. they do only atw measurement and add this on... Hmmmm

    some do coastdowns, so derived rolling losses are taken into account, and these will show the variations in atw figures as things warm up, but on coastdowns they also nett them back to plausable again.

    some dyno's like maha seem to have very high costdown losses compare to others.. giving high @fly figures..

    some dyno's are inertia only, some are braked, and the settings of these are adjustable...

    many variances..

    choose your dyno of choice and stick with it.. imho.
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  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post

    The dyno operator can basically get the dyno to read what he wants to, I remember seeing a chipped UK power increase claim with 2 different dyno plots, one done at about 6 degrees ambient temp with a correction factor around 1.0, one done with the dyno suggesting the temp was 62 degrees and a correction factor of about 1.25 so elevating the bhp by about 25%!

    needless to say someone noticed the ambients in the small print and called him on it, and it cost him credibility
    !
    Ha I remember seeing that when on ukmkivs. Nice blokes but wasnt impressed when I'd found they had disconnected the EGR valveb(derv) and left the hose flying about, think the same thing happened to a mates car on the same day.

    I too find it strange that dynos can vary so much, but I expect they not exactly regulated, and I'm sure that tuners can get them to give happier readings. If your really bothered about accuracy, get the engine out and get it bench tested, costs a fair bit though. When ever anybody asks me what power my car is... I always tell them 500 horses, that usually does the trick and they leave me alone
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  19. #18
    camscockle20vT's Avatar
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    Does camel power change the out come over horse power? iv never had a dyno test and i probably never will, if i ever get a remap and the dyno comes with then obviousley i would, and be very intrested in the results, but in reality i havent a clue and they could tell me anything tbf, most maps promise 220bhp from a k03s so why would they tell me otherwise? Think its all about willy waving if theres nothing to be gained from the figures other than my cars faster than yours

  20. #19
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    sometimes its annoying hearing people talk about cars bhp.

    obv on a forum were watching build threads and seeing gains being made after each mod on the same dyno, thats ok. its the gains that matter. started with X hp, did this and i got Y hp.

    what annoys me is hearing (my mate as an example) '***** had his car bluefin chipped, gives another 60hp, its got 285bhp now'..... Yeh, of course it has mate.

    sometimes its willy waving, and annoying. but then we gotta know a round about number to give us something to smile about after spending all that money.

    i guess though that someone like these LCR fellas going to AMD and dynoing 310 on a stage 2 ko4 is a hell of an ego boost to be fair, i think anyone would be chuffed. but its not the be all and end all. they may have started with 240hp stock on that dyno (unlikely) but we just dont know.

    if someone asks me, which they do, i say i dunno, never had it dyno'd, but its fairly quick. i would only go to a known 'accurate' dyno too, why make yourself look a fool claiming your stage 1 has 280hp like you see in these ads

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    sometimes its annoying hearing people talk about cars bhp.

    obv on a forum were watching build threads and seeing gains being made after each mod on the same dyno, thats ok. its the gains that matter. started with X hp, did this and i got Y hp.

    Yeh thats the only reason i see fit for a dyno test tbf, i choose to mod my car with the goal of not spending loads but getting bang for my buck and i see dyno days as a waste of money, i read plenty of the BT builds and other epic build threads and for those guys its practical to see if spending the amount they have already is paying off, and other technical stuff that i dont understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscockle20vT View Post
    ...i see dyno days as a waste of money...
    Shame... they are normally pretty good days out where you get to meet lots of like minded people etc and put faces to user names...

    There will always be the peeps chasing numbers and stuff and I am certainly not one of those and I am all about bang for buck even at the level I have gone

    Try one... you will love it... I will organise another at B5 sometime soon and you are not too far away ;P

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    Quote Originally Posted by ;1470104

    Try one... you will love it... I will organise another at B5 sometime soon and you are not too far away ;P

    <tuffty/>
    Can you please organise it for after Easter
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;1470104
    Shame... they are normally pretty good days out where you get to meet lots of like minded people etc and put faces to user names...

    There will always be the peeps chasing numbers and stuff and I am certainly not one of those and I am all about bang for buck even at the level I have gone

    Try one... you will love it... I will organise another at B5 sometime soon and you are not too far away ;P

    <tuffty/>
    I agree completely. Love the car and caught the bug for modifying. Not chasing figures but love the changes in performance after each change although it does get a little consuming sometimes.

    It'd be interesting to give it a run on another dyno and nice to put faces to names at the same time.

    If its ok to come up and a date set, i'd try to be there.

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  25. #24
    camscockle20vT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;1470104

    Try one... you will love it... I will organise another at B5 sometime soon and you are not too far away ;P
    Sounds good i seen a few dyno days and like i said it does intrest me but i just see it as a waste of money for my needs, but id like to meet a few of you guys at some stage as iv never got involved with a forum like i have this one and everyone seems a good bunch. Oh and where is B5 :s lol
    Last edited by camscockle20vT; 21st January 2012 at 07:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    i guess though that someone like these LCR fellas going to AMD and dynoing 310 on a stage 2 ko4 is a hell of an ego boost to be fair, i think anyone would be chuffed. but its not the be all and end all. they may have started with 240hp stock on that dyno (unlikely) but we just dont know.
    They would'nt be making anything like that here tho
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    I'll definitely be along to the next Badger 5 dyno day, as hopefully I'll have a car worth dyno-ing for a change!
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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    My K04 turbo is only 7 months old and produced 326lbft of torque 3 weeks ago at Bill's. One of, if not the largest torque figure he'd seen from a standard K04. I put that down to it being a brand new turbo and Bill not seeing too many fresh plain K04 units.
    Wow, I thought mine was high @ 311 lb/ft. That's from an MTM custom map from QST back in 2004. I can remember being disappointed at the time that it was 'only' 261 bhp and they stated 270bhp on their literature, but driving it I'd definitely have the higher than expected torque and lower than expected power (assuming it's within the safe limits of the engine of course!). Only downside was the clutch went at 58k, but popped a Sachs Organic (rated to 330 lb/ft IIRC) in with a standard DMF and it's been fine for the past 33k (quickly touches piece of wood!)

    Agree that the whole RR thing is a lottery and some are known to be optimistic, others are more realistic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs356 View Post
    Wow, I thought mine was high @ 311 lb/ft. That's from an MTM custom map from QST back in 2004. I can remember being disappointed at the time that it was 'only' 261 bhp and they stated 270bhp on their literature, but driving it I'd definitely have the higher than expected torque and lower than expected power (assuming it's within the safe limits of the engine of course!). Only downside was the clutch went at 58k, but popped a Sachs Organic (rated to 330 lb/ft IIRC) in with a standard DMF and it's been fine for the past 33k (quickly touches piece of wood!)

    Agree that the whole RR thing is a lottery and some are known to be optimistic, others are more realistic.
    I agree with you there. I was disappointed at only making 275bhp but I'm over the moon with the 307lbft I left with (we turned down the map due to standard rods).

    My clutch started to slip on Monday so that will get done when my rods are replaced in April. I've turned the map down again to save the clutch this time

    At least I know I'll have 330+ lbft of torque to play with once it's all done and hoping the XS exhaust mani will unleash some more bhp from the K04.

    I've had all my dyno readings done on Badger5s dyno so I have nothing to compare it with. I'll get to another dyno once all the work has been done and it's been back to Bills. Be very interested to see what the differences are.
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  30. #29
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    how high can the s3 go?
    or should it be how much power and torque can the chassis handle?
    No point in xx bhp/torque if you cant use it.
    just a thought

  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jezzy View Post
    how high can the s3 go?
    or should it be how much power and torque can the chassis handle?
    No point in xx bhp/torque if you cant use it.
    just a thought
    chassis going by this vid is ok....

    Audi S3 800 HP.avi - YouTube

 

 

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