Remapped? Buy rods!!!

[BENJAMIN]

Had a car in today with a strange misfire/flatspot and a light tapping noise.
Whipped the head off as I had my suspicions.......

This is becoming an all too common sight! These are Low mileage 20mm rods too!

 

[16Klappe]

Remapped by who? A pre pubescent child on his VTech 'my first computer'?

What's the spec on the rest of the car, and name and shame whoever did it!

 

[<tuffty/>]

Yep... and nobody believes that people need them... low mileage with just a remap is a little harsh though... must have been some boost spike...

Bill had an Ibiza in recently with the same thing... running an IHI conversion though but on std rods!!! madness...

<tuffty/>

 

[BENJAMIN]

Low mileage agu engine. K04 023 turbo setup.
1.3 bar, mbe management mapped by a reputable dyno operator. I'm firmly in the belief that for anything more than a k03s, Rods are necessary, these engines are getting old now, fatigue may be a factor here.

 

[Prawn]

I'm starting to get worried now

 

[16Klappe]

Low mileage agu engine. K04 023 turbo setup.
1.3 bar, mbe management mapped by a reputable dyno operator. I'm firmly in the belief that for anything more than a k03s, Rods are necessary, these engines are getting old now, fatigue may be a factor here.

Well there you go, the guy is an idiot and got what he deserved. Why was he running MBE on it and not mapped in on the Bosch? I'll be running a K03s hybrid on standard rods, and Prawn is planning on running his car on stock rods with a K04 hybrid so fingers crossed it can be mapped safely. Especially seeing as both of our engines are 200K and have never had the head off them...

The title and initial post are very misleading, I assumed you meant JUST a remap.

 

[MURRAYS444]

So after seeing the pictures of bent rods after remapping would it be a could idea to replace the rods before remapping, Sorry for sounding like an idiot!

 

[Lewis583]

That's why i decided to put rods in the engine i'm building at the moment, didn't want to risk it after reading some threads on here. *Cough* Wellys thread haha

 

[Lewis583]

Well there you go, the guy is an idiot and got what he deserved. Why was he running MBE on it and not mapped in on the Bosch? I'll be running a K03s hybrid on standard rods, and Prawn is planning on running his car on stock rods with a K04 hybrid so fingers crossed it can be mapped safely. Especially seeing as both of our engines are 200K and have never had the head off them...

The title and initial post are very misleading, I assumed you meant JUST a remap.

I'm guessing the MBE offered more advanced options than the Bosch 3.8 ecu

 

[<tuffty/>]

Well there you go, the guy is an idiot and got what he deserved. Why was he running MBE on it and not mapped in on the Bosch? I'll be running a K03s hybrid on standard rods, and Prawn is planning on running his car on stock rods with a K04 hybrid so fingers crossed it can be mapped safely. Especially seeing as both of our engines are 200K and have never had the head off them...

The title and initial post are very misleading, I assumed you meant JUST a remap.

Not entirely sure thats an entirely justified statement bud... for one thing there could be a legitimate reason for running standalone management... the engine may not even be in an Audi/normal car....

1.3bar is not a shed load... K04's are less spiky than K03's and hybrid K03's can be nasty spike wise... could be other factors here... don't know what the timing advance was like (no knock control on most standalone ECU's) so could be a few factors that contributed to this but.... its yet another demonstration of how rods in these engines are starting to show their weaknesses...

<tuffty/>

 

[BENJAMIN]

Well there you go, the guy is an idiot and got what he deserved. Why was he running MBE on it and not mapped in on the Bosch? I'll be running a K03s hybrid on standard rods, and Prawn is planning on running his car on stock rods with a K04 hybrid so fingers crossed it can be mapped safely. Especially seeing as both of our engines are 200K and have never had the head off them...

The title and initial post are very misleading, I assumed you meant JUST a remap.

What difference would the Bosch management make? None! The mbe progressively made 1.3bar with no spike! 12.5 Afr on boost (wide band correction too, yes that's better than your narrowband agu setup!)
The act of the matter is rods bend on these engines! You seem to be neglecting the fact that many rods have snapped on o.e management in a relatively low state of tune, wellys s3 threw a rod did it not?

Why you feel the need to make negative posts is beyond me. The title is an opinion based on my experiences that many others share, so YOU assumed wrong

 

[AARON77]

I love living on borrowed time
193000 miles 270bhp remap and 100 shot of nos
100s & 100s of 5k launches
Stock rods and pistons !!!!!!!!............

 

[BENJAMIN]

Not entirely sure thats an entirely justified statement bud... for one thing there could be a legitimate reason for running standalone management... the engine may not even be in an Audi/normal car....

1.3bar is not a shed load... K04's are less spiky than K03's and hybrid K03's can be nasty spike wise... could be other factors here... don't know what the timing advance was like (no knock control on most standalone ECU's) so could be a few factors that contributed to this but.... its yet another demonstration of how rods in these engines are starting to show their weaknesses...

<tuffty/>

Spot on, it's in a mk2 golf. It's not even as if it's having to drag round a lot of weight either.

 

[<tuffty/>]

So after seeing the pictures of bent rods after remapping would it be a could idea to replace the rods before remapping, Sorry for sounding like an idiot!

Typically a stage 1/2 remap is well within the engine components capabilities but it does seem that now these engines are getting on a bit that prolonged fatigue is a contributory factor to their final demise...

High boost/timing advance will kill rods all day long due to the increased cylinder pressures that come as a result (torque...) but sensible levels of tune should normally be fine...

What is evident is as these engines get some miles under their belts it becomes more of a lottery as to how long the rods will last... you could be lucky and never bend one while you own the car but the next owner bends a rod driving it up the street after buying it from you or you could bend one tomorrow...

<tuffty/>

 

[16Klappe]

I'm guessing the MBE offered more advanced options than the Bosch 3.8 ecu

But clearly at the cost of boost control!

Torque is what kills rods, not outright power (to a limit obviously!) if mapped properly with correct boost control there is no reason why a K04 should bend rods just like that. There are quite a few guys on VW forums running K04 setups on 1.8t's with stock rods with no problems, still on stock management. For all it's apparent faults the N75 system is very good for low down boost control. Where was this engine making peak boost? If it's anything under 4500RPM I'd say it's been mapped wrong.

As a direct comparison a friend of mine has a Mk3 golf with an AGU in it running a Qpeng mafless plug and play ECU which came flashed to a stage 2 map direct from Qpeng. It made 238bhp on an manual boost controller, ran for just over 4000 miles and bent it's rods.

Another 'friend' of mine from the same forum has an AUM in a B3 Passat estate, running on Bosch with a set of golf clocks etc, which has a K03s hybrid and runs at 249bhp and has had his engine fitted for 15K+ and it is perfect.

I'm not saying rods aren't a good idea, but it I wouldn't think it's true to say "if you have any more than a K03s you need rods" because that isn't always the case.

As Paul says, it's a lottery. Look at Aarons car, look at my car which even saw peaks of 28PSI. There are lots of examples out there of "BT" cars which make good power on stock rods, but there are as many that don't even make it past stage 2 haha!

 

[BENJAMIN]

I love living on borrowed time
193000 miles 270bhp remap and 100 shot of nos
100s & 100s of 5k launches
Stock rods and pistons !!!!!!!!............

Lol my Apy s3 is on stock everything, never been opened up. It's in revo stage 2 form, running 22psi and it's been fine for a couple of years now. I guess the previous owners maintenance and a lot of luck are involved. Some last 200k with no bother, some last 40k, it's a gamble!

 

[Lemon S3]

Quick Hijack question: What size are the rods on an APY engine, are the 20mm or 19mm pins? I think 20 but want confirmation.

 

[knoxie]

I love living on borrowed time
193000 miles 270bhp remap and 100 shot of nos
100s & 100s of 5k launches
Stock rods and pistons !!!!!!!!............

love it!!

 

[AARON77]

Lol my Apy s3 is on stock everything, never been opened up. It's in revo stage 2 form, running 22psi and it's been fine for a couple of years now. I guess the previous owners maintenance and a lot of luck are involved. Some last 200k with no bother, some last 40k, it's a gamble!

Its down to maintenance and luck I guess ???
It's not like you can't get a replcement engine

 

[BENJAMIN]

But clearly at the cost of boost control!

Torque is what kills rods, not outright power (to a limit obviously!) if mapped properly with correct boost control there is no reason why a K04 should bend rods just like that. There are quite a few guys on VW forums running K04 setups on 1.8t's with stock rods with no problems, still on stock management. For all it's apparent faults the N75 system is very good for low down boost control.

As a direct comparison a friend of mine has a Mk3 golf with an AGU in it running a Qpeng mafless plug and play ECU which came flashed to a stage 2 map direct from Qpeng. It made 238bhp on an manual boost controller, ran for just over 4000 miles and bent it's rods.

Another 'friend' of mine from the same forum has an AUM in a B3 Passat estate, running on Bosch with a set of golf clocks etc, which has a K03s hybrid and runs at 249bhp and has had his engine fitted for 15K+ and it is perfect.

I'm not saying rods aren't a good idea, but it I wouldn't think it's true to say "if you have any more than a K03s you need rods" because that isn't always the case.

I do agree with you to a point mate, you must admit there is an element of luck involved! The car in question was actually using the n75 hence why it was able to produce stable boost control.

For the sake of £300 odd quid surely it's a worthwhile investment? One boost spike and it could be goodnight and not everyone has a boost gauge fitted to monitor it.

 

[<tuffty/>]

But clearly at the cost of boost control!...

You can get much better control of boost on standalone than most 'mappers' can manage on Bosch mate...

<tuffty/>

 

[Gops]

I wanted to go CC stage 2 soon this year but feared rods might bend. Would stage 2 be pushing it? Mines APY S3 with 159k!

 

[16Klappe]

I appreciate that Paul, but for arguments sake do you agree with my thinking that this is probably more the mapping at fault than the theoretical setup? I don't know torque figures, haven't seen a dyno plot and am just going by what I think obviously. But if I was putting a K04 on a 1.8t with stock rods I'd want full boost from 4500RPM up to be on the safe side?

And yeah Ben, I totally agree for the 300 quid that the rods costs and the ease of fitting them if you are going past a K03s hybrid you would be a fool not too. But it's just such pot luck, for every thread you get about bent rods you'll get somebody like Aaron pop up with a quote like his, or me comparing it to two very differently mapped K03s powered cars.

*Edit -

I ask all of this, not to be an argumental little know it all but because hybrid is my next step and your guys opinions are more valuable than my thoughts.

 

[<tuffty/>]

I wanted to go CC stage soon this year but feared rods might bend. Would stage 2 be pushing it? Mines APY S3 with 159k!

I can see this going the same way that 'other' infamous rod thread went...

At 159k its impossible to tell... its completely subjective.... if the engine has not had a hard life then you could be fine, if its been ragged within an inch of its life you could still be fine...

Facts are they can and do fail.... I have seen them fail in std tune as well as stage 1/2 tunes...

Would I recommend you changing your rods? difficult one... if you are planning to keep the car a while you will get the value of what you pay to get them done and you can have the edge should you wish to sell the car on given that rod failure is getting more common...

Choice is yours realistically but for anything beyond generic mapping them changing the rods is a no brainer IMO

<tuffty/>

 

[BENJAMIN]

And yeah Ben, I totally agree for the 300 quid that the rods costs and the ease of fitting them if you are going past a K03s hybrid you would be a fool not too. But it's just such pot luck, for every thread you get about bent rods you'll get somebody like Aaron pop up with a quote like his, or me comparing it to two very differently mapped K03s powered cars.

*Edit -

I ask all of this, not to be an argumental little know it all but because hybrid is my next step and your guys opinions are more valuable than my thoughts.

Nail on the head. It's just such pot luck! My s3 made more torque and power than the mk2! And mines done 40k more.
F##k me does the mk2 fly though! Like, eye jiggling pull out of corners, muchos fun!

 

[<tuffty/>]

I appreciate that Paul, but for arguments sake do you agree with my thinking that this is probably more the mapping at fault than the theoretical setup? I don't know torque figures, haven't seen a dyno plot and am just going by what I think obviously. But if I was putting a K04 on a 1.8t with stock rods I'd want full boost from 4500RPM up to be on the safe side?

There is no evidence to support that the mapping is at fault so sorry I don't agree... remember rods fail on stage 1/2 and std levels of tune...

<tuffty/>

 

[Lewis583]

Like, eye jiggling pull out of corners, muchos fun!

I NEED to get mine finished ASAP!

 

[16Klappe]

There is no evidence to support that the mapping is at fault so sorry I don't agree... remember rods fail on stage 1/2 and std levels of tune...

<tuffty/>

Yeah, I see that. I too have seen failed rods on all stages of tune, but what confuses me (and sorry if I am showing an obvious flaw in my knowledge!) but if an APY or AMK can make 26/70BHP on their rods without people being so worried about problems would I be right in thinking that a K04 on an AGU would be the same risk as running a K04 on an APY/AMK?

Sorry if that seems a bit dim, but you see people running 270bhp in S3's all over the shop and if the rods are the weak link why is this power particularly unsafe on an AGU? Do they not share the same rods?

 

[BENJAMIN]

Yeah, I see that. I too have seen failed rods on all stages of tune, but what confuses me (and sorry if I am showing an obvious flaw in my knowledge!) but if an APY or AMK can make 26/70BHP on their rods without people being so worried about problems would I be right in thinking that a K04 on an AGU would be the same risk as running a K04 on an APY/AMK?

Sorry if that seems a bit dim, but you see people running 270bhp in S3's all over the shop and if the rods are the weak link why is this power particularly unsafe on an AGU? Do they not share the same rods?

Same rods, but agu pistons are 9.5 to 1 instead of 9 to 1 compression ratio. So potentially higher cylinder pressure but that being a factor in failure is speculation. Aslong as it is mapped with particular attention to timing advance there should be no more danger, in my opinion anyway lol.

 

[superkarl]

I can see this going the same way that 'other' infamous rod thread went...
<tuffty/>

Lol. As soon as I saw the title

 

[AudiS3-Turbo]

I will just wait for mine to bend then swap the rods over,out of interest did you compression test this before you pulled the head off? curious if it would be noticeably down..

 

[16Klappe]

Same rods, but agu pistons are 9.5 to 1 instead of 9 to 1 compression ratio. So potentially higher cylinder pressure but that being a factor in failure is speculation. Aslong as it is mapped with particular attention to timing advance there should be no more danger, in my opinion anyway lol.

So in reality, for me to do the much more readily available, easier to build up in bits and potentially cheaper conversion to a K04 assuming I ran it at 250/260BHP I *shouldn't* be in any more danger than a stage 1 S3 which IMO is safe?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Yeah, I see that. I too have seen failed rods on all stages of tune, but what confuses me (and sorry if I am showing an obvious flaw in my knowledge!) but if an APY or AMK can make 26/70BHP on their rods without people being so worried about problems would I be right in thinking that a K04 on an AGU would be the same risk as running a K04 on an APY/AMK?

Sorry if that seems a bit dim, but you see people running 270bhp in S3's all over the shop and if the rods are the weak link why is this power particularly unsafe on an AGU? Do they not share the same rods?

Not sure thats the point the OP is trying to make... the rods in the AGU will be the same as the rods in an APY/AMK/BAM S3... the same risk of failure is the same on any 1.8t... BAM is mechanically the same as an AMK... arguably the AGU is at more risk as it runs a higher compression ratio to the S3 engines...

In this case the fact its an AGU is irrelevant... the fact is these rods (be they in an AGU/AMK/BAM) are prone to bending at any level of tune in any car...

<tuffty/>

 

[BENJAMIN]

So in reality, for me to do the much more readily available, easier to build up in bits and potentially cheaper conversion to a K04 assuming I ran it at 250/260BHP I *shouldn't* be in any more danger than a stage 1 S3 which IMO is safe?

K04 is arguably less dangerous than a spike hungry k03 hybrid. Im ditching my k04 setup if you are genuinely interested in that route pm me if necessary. ( std mani, k04-022 (done 40k), b5 80mm tip, apy injectors, 3" decat dp and all 4 water/oil lines)

 

[16Klappe]

Not sure thats the point the OP is trying to make... the rods in the AGU will be the same as the rods in an APY/AMK/BAM S3... the same risk of failure is the same on any 1.8t... BAM is mechanically the same as an AMK... arguably the AGU is at more risk as it runs a higher compression ratio to the S3 engines...

In this case the fact its an AGU is irrelevant... the fact is these rods (be they in an AGU/AMK/BAM) are prone to bending at any level of tune in any car...

<tuffty/>

Yeah man, I was just being selfish and asking for information so I can impress Prawn with my knowledge tomorrow when I phone him up and tell him I'm thinking of starting buying K04 bits instead of saving for a hybrid.

I personally wasn't sure if the AGU rods were the same as S3 rods, that's all. It's still a lottery, but I'll feel happier running a K04 at the same pressure as a stage 1 tune on an S3 than I would running a K03s hybrid at stage 2 pressures/20PSI+.

When are you looking at changing Ben? Coming months?

 

[BENJAMIN]

I will just wait for mine to bend then swap the rods over,out of interest did you compression test this before you pulled the head off? curious if it would be noticeably down..

Sometimes they bend and snap adding additional 'breathers' to your block, so probably not the most sensible approach lol.
Yeah it was down but not as much as you'd expect and would sit there idling so smoothly. Bizarre.

 

[BENJAMIN]

When are you looking at changing Ben? Coming months?

Yeah couple of months I'd imagine mate.

Worth noting that mk2 conversion has been daily driven for 2 1/2 years by the same owner with that engine/setup.

 

[The Doctor]

Ha, loving this thread. Anyway I'm currently only on a Stage 1 map @ approaching 90k miles, but am considering upgrading the rods at 100k because I intend on keeping the car for a good few years yet and may choose to modify it further at a later date. Roughly what would I be looking at (£££) to have the rods replaced by an independent specialist and would you suggest having any additional work done at the same time?

 

[16Klappe]

Yeah couple of months I'd imagine mate.

Worth noting that mk2 conversion has been daily driven for 2 1/2 years by the same owner with that engine/setup.

Ideal, if you would be so kind as to drop me a PM when it comes to taking it off and let me know a price if I have the funds and it's all ready to bolt on I'll probably be interested.

Then it'll be a trip to R-Tech for some mapping, although I do want to get badgered this time

I've been Stormed and R-Tech'd, but never Badgered

 

[<tuffty/>]

Ha, loving this thread. Anyway I'm currently only on a Stage 1 map @ approaching 90k miles, but am considering upgrading the rods at 100k because I intend on keeping the car for a good few years yet and may choose to modify it further at a later date. Roughly what would I be looking at (£££) to have the rods replaced by an independent specialist and would you suggest having any additional work done at the same time?

Not sure... can ask Bill

May as well have a GT30 fitted at the same time ;P

<tuffty/>