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Gambba said:
Glen,
Not trying to pick a fight, but you firstly mention that the weight of the A3 1.8T vs a Golf VR6 is pretty close, I don't call over 100Kg pretty close!
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No, no...don't worry about me thinking you're looking for confrontation...discussions like these are a good way of everyone hearing a different perspective.
I have my own perspective...which I'm often quite vocal about...based upon my experience...I am also very interested to hear other people's points of view as this is the only way you learn!
Hell...I change my perspective regularly based upon what I've found / discovered...that's life.
...and without people nailing their colours to the mast and sticking up for what they believe...this would be a worse place.
However...back to the topic...
I have the figures at :
Golf VR6 = 1200KGs
A3 1.8T = 1150Kgs.
so the difference is only 50Kgs...these figures I have may be wrong though...and since I don'r own either I can't say with any authority.
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Then later on you state that the R32 has an alloy block so is closer in kerb weight to the S3 than we might think, this may well be but that still means the old cast block is still F'ing heavy..........meaning that in the initial discussion weight to power ratio does matter.
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Yes...the old 2.9 / 2.8 VR6 is heavy...but again don't go concentrating on the weight of the engine alone.
The whole engine assembly taking into account all ancilliaries, radiators, IC & Turbo if applicable should all be taken into consideration...if I remember correctly the difference between the 1.8T complete set up and a VR6 complete set up is only around 30KG.
So yeah...the old VR6 is heavy...but in a straight line this weight is not a problem...it's on the twisties it manifests itself as a problem...and again not so much the mass in question...more the location of it! The VR6 carries it's mass high up and forward of the driveline - not good!
The 1.8T carries far more weight low down..better for cornering.
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Also, just a note this started off as an old VR6 (Not new R32 version) vs a 1.8T A3, but somehow it's managed to turn this into comparing the latest VAG engine and chassis tuning dynamics to what is essentially a 7 year old car, kind of unfair me thinks.
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Fair point, well made.
I guess that's just what happens when threads get interesting.
But on your point...let's not forget that the R32 / S3 platform are the same...all the VAG 'A4' platform....and such the basic design of the two cars are not as far removed in time as we may think...at the end of the day, you can't polish a ****! So...both VW and Audi are tied to what the platform allows.
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I don't disagree with anything Glen has said, as who is to argue with somebody that has the best of both, I mean many!, worlds in terms of cars, and has a lot of experience when it comes to tuning......BUT, I do feel that you don't give full credit to the 1.8T engine, and often shoot it down for no reason.
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Cheers!...obviously these are all my opinions...and are, as such, subjective.
Actually, I like the 1.8T engine...I think it's a fabulous piece of engineering that goes underrated...it it wore a cosworth badge it would surely be higher thought of.
But, coming from bikes / cars with engines that have a 'soul' if you like...it's a bit muted.
I'm sorry if I come accross as negative...I'm not...those that know me pretty well (David R for one) will know that I will often say things to get people thinking about things...having a genuine opinion is a good thing...and sometimes saying something controversial is the only way to get people to stop, step back and decide which side of the fence thay are going to come down on. Not always a good thing...but certainly not a bad thing.
In my opinion the 1.8T is a good engine...it's just not a great engine...in my view.
All I'm attempting to do is enlighten the few who cannot se past it...there are other power plants out there that posess traits above and beyond those of the 1.8T...surely the more educated people become, the more their personal opinion matters?
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Personally I hate the V6/VR6 lumps in standard form, all that engine and not a fantastic amount of go, but that's just my thrupny bits worth.
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To be brutally honest...I'm not their biggest fan either...despite all I've written.
I am a VR6 fan...that is a fan of the engine...but I'm not a huge fan of the mk3 Golf VR6.
Don't forget that when I was looking for my choice in Golf...I went for a 2.0 16v (ABF) as in my view it's a better package than a VR6.
...but I could fill a thread on my thinking behind this easily...but it's not for this thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
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P.S. Always love to see you posting Glen, as it tends to make you think a bit about the topic
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Cheers agian Gambba...
Like I said...I'll play devils advocate just to try to get people to passionately air their views.
But, I guess not everyone sees where I'm coming from...and to those that don't and to those I offend...I'm sorry. I'm only attempting to get a vibrant debate going for the good of everyone!