Badger5 TIP & JC Filter on Friday :)

[badger5]

n75 electrically disconnected dave, not physically disconnected which is uncontrolled boost!! just to confirm..
DP/cats would be my items for replacing with higher flowing items personally.

 

[[Dave B]]

What's the current DP/cat of choice?

 

[<tuffty/>]

What's the current DP/cat of choice?

Pipeworx seems to work well mate but the XS Power/Relentless one Welly is currently helping sort out could be an alternative if they finally manage to get it right...

<tuffty/>

 

[s3dave]

Agreed pipewerx is the one, a little expensive, but in this instance you do get what you pay for with zero issues.
(n75 en route should receive tomoz)

 

[Essflee]

This is YOUR PROBLEM dude..
You do realise 2550mb is the max the sensor can read????? where its way way higher on Daves... a Real 2800mb spike as logged on my dyno!
you are not running 2550mb, thats just all you can see it running!!!

Judging with vag-com or liquid is pointless where you see 2550mb boost levels... It can be way higher and you are blissfully unaware, until catastrophy occurs

Good point, forgot about the sensor maxing out, when I had checked requested vs actual the requested was 1.55bar but I was usually only seeing 1.46 ish bar due to boost leak, would this still be the same case ?

 

[[Dave B]]

Agreed pipewerx is the one, a little expensive, but in this instance you do get what you pay for with zero issues.
(n75 en route should receive tomoz)

Thanks Dave.

 

[S3KO4]

Checked my FPR no nasty build ups just some sand! I was a bit puzzled at that. I remember changing that line to a silicon one last year.

 

[metricspaces]

LMAO - I'm sorry guys but you crack me up.
you put remaps on your cars, DOUBLING the boost of factory std often, and you worry about an intake pipe which free's up the intake so the turbo can breathe to its potential, and now worry about rods?

Not everyone has the knowledge you do about modifying cars. So I think it's a reasonable thing that people ask questions about what effect a certain mod could have on their car, rather than blindly thinking "woohoo, 20 more ponnies, I'll stick it on". It may seem naive from your point of view - but that's because you already know all this stuff . It comes across as you think we shouldn't be asking about this?

The two concerns I had about this mod were:

1) Does hitting stage-2 bhp on a stage-1 map pose risks?

I remember reading about a guy who got a CC stage-1 map from JBS on his S3. Then a while later made some modifications that increased airflow, and ended up in a mess. I can't remember the exact details, but the map wasn't changed after he made the mods. I think he may have added a downpipe and ended up with dangerously higher temperatures because the turbo was flowing more.

So I was wondering if this increased airflow could have any negative effect on a stage-1 S3 without any other mods, either because were we are still on a stage-1 map, or because we hadn't got some modification usually done as part of a stage-2 map.

I'm still not clear about this.


2) The other question I had was about simply about looking at the BHP increase on face value, and asking whether it increased the risk of bending rods.

On Dane's car he basically went from BHP you would see on a stage-1 map, to BHP you would see on a stage-2 map. So I was wondering since you mentioned rods going are something to be worried about on stage-1, is it an even bigger worry if we go with the 3'TIP & Cone and are hitting BHP like Danes. But I think you've answered this for us - no, as we wouldn't be seeing more boost or more torque.

So adding this 3'TIP & Cone does not increase this risk of bending rods over and above the risk you already have with a stage-1. Am I correct here?

TIP does not magic you up boost... In almost all results seen so far (excluding Dave as its has a boost control issue), the torque is about 10lbft lower than pre-TIP, but sustained 1000rpm or more longer. Daves car has a boost control issue, which is why it spikes too high for comfort.

You are modding your cars... You have to decide.
Keep torque sensible, boost sensible, and you *should* be fine, BUT, there are 210/225 engines suffering rod failures.. Who knows, maybe they see >2550mb boost levels and spike due to other hardware issues??

Adding 3inch TIP is no different to adding, filters, induction kits, silicon TIPs, aside from this actually does give reasonable airflow and power gains.

 

[Prawn]

a very simple way of looking at it:

BHP does not kill rods. peak torque kills rods.

Boost = torque

so, adding bills 3'' TIP will not increase peak torque, it'll only increase bhp due to improved flow top end

Boost isn't increased either with the TIP, although power is up because it's more efficient.

So adding the TIP poses no additional threat to your rods, whatever your level of tune.

Basically, you could run 300bhp with 250lbft and not worry about your rods at all

or, you could run 230bhp and 300lbft, and be very scared for your rods.

Dane is seeing stage 2 S3 BHP, but only really average stage 1 S3 torque.

 

[metricspaces]

Yep, that was point two in my post above, about the rods. Bill's explanation, and yours, make sense on this point.

Still interested in point one from my post above. I'll try pull out the thread from the guy who I mentioned got a stage-1 remap at JBS, then put on some mods that increased airflow, and had problems.

 

[badger5]

Good point, forgot about the sensor maxing out, when I had checked requested vs actual the requested was 1.55bar but I was usually only seeing 1.46 ish bar due to boost leak, would this still be the same case ?

you can only see what the map sensor is limited to seeing if only looking at liqui or vagcom
boost gauge will confirm actual boost

 

[badger5]

Not everyone has the knowledge you do about modifying cars. So I think it's a reasonable thing that people ask questions about what effect a certain mod could have on their car, rather than blindly thinking "woohoo, 20 more ponnies, I'll stick it on". It may seem naive from your point of view - but that's because you already know all this stuff . It comes across as you think we shouldn't be asking about this?

The two concerns I had about this mod were:

1) Does hitting stage-2 bhp on a stage-1 map pose risks?

I remember reading about a guy who got a CC stage-1 map from JBS on his S3. Then a while later made some modifications that increased airflow, and ended up in a mess. I can't remember the exact details, but the map wasn't changed after he made the mods. I think he may have added a downpipe and ended up with dangerously higher temperatures because the turbo was flowing more.

So I was wondering if this increased airflow could have any negative effect on a stage-1 S3 without any other mods, either because were we are still on a stage-1 map, or because we hadn't got some modification usually done as part of a stage-2 map.

I'm still not clear about this.


2) The other question I had was about simply about looking at the BHP increase on face value, and asking whether it increased the risk of bending rods.

On Dane's car he basically went from BHP you would see on a stage-1 map, to BHP you would see on a stage-2 map. So I was wondering since you mentioned rods going are something to be worried about on stage-1, is it an even bigger worry if we go with the 3'TIP & Cone and are hitting BHP like Danes. But I think you've answered this for us - no, as we wouldn't be seeing more boost or more torque.

So adding this 3'TIP & Cone does not increase this risk of bending rods over and above the risk you already have with a stage-1. Am I correct here?

Now, if you are asking me to say black and white will it or wont it - I wont be answering such a question. Rediculous for me to.... I am not responsible for other mechanical issues on any vehicle other than ones I have built. What I can say is, the majority seem to loose initial torque slightly, on avg it looks like 10lbft, with reduced initial peak/spike, but does hold on to that torque from 4000rpm onwards, where previously it would fall away.

As for mods, vs risk of engine internals, like rods, its entirely down to the customer what they decide. The TIP does not generate any more boost loads, it does allow the turbo in breathe all the air it wishes, which is where the std size intakes seem to be a restriction to this flow from 4krpm onwards.

I am an advocate for rods 100% for peace of mind, as well as WMI being a seriously good idea on any k04 car. Watch your egt's, and glowing manifolds when you've booted it... They are always very high.

I have'nt yet seen results for a 3inch TIP alone which increased torque, more sustained what it had, usually with slightly less initial torque.

 

[badger5]

Yep, that was point two in my post above, about the rods. Bill's explanation, and yours, make sense on this point.

Still interested in point one from my post above. I'll try pull out the thread from the guy who I mentioned got a stage-1 remap at JBS, then put on some mods that increased airflow, and had problems.

yes.. S3paul it was I think... change of downpipe, alledged to have caused the following "Spike" and excessive boost, which ended in damage. I dont know the full facts, so cannot confirm what actually happened vs what got blamed for the problem.
Simple logging confirms if alls well or not. The difference in that example is turbos boost changed, and went high, and caused damage. Hybrid I believe it was also? std bottom end on hybrid is something I do not advocate unless you wish to cap boost levels low.

3inch TIP does not turn boost up on anything I have seen, althought it can help actual match requested boost when it can breathe better. Boost is closed loop controlled to its request on decent stage 1/2 maps

 

[metricspaces]

Thanks Bill, appreciate the replies. That's all useful info and I think it will useful for people considering this mod, especially ones less educated about these topics like myself

 

[badger5]

this is the more typical change in torque and its delivery on others I have seen. Danes being this picture but others results posted follow the same trend

 

[superkarl]

I think it should be a compulsory mod with any stage one map with the way they are tending to deliver their torque and boost, if people want to be safe.

 

[[Dave B]]

Dane - I received the N75 this morning so thanks for that. Will give it a try this week and post results (I tried to PM you but your inbox is full).

The torque and boost curves above are more what I'm after rather than the spike. One thing I have noticed recently is that there are more and more BAM owners posting up with high torque figures (290-300lb). Is there something different about the BAM engines which might cause mapping to have different effects? One thought that did cross my mind is what N75 valve comes as standard on BAM cars? Could it be a J valve? I'll confirm this either way when I remove mine and replace it with s3daves.

 

[Westy]

Dane - I received the N75 this morning so thanks for that. Will give it a try this week and post results (I tried to PM you but your inbox is full).

The torque and boost curves above are more what I'm after rather than the spike. One thing I have noticed recently is that there are more and more BAM owners posting up with high torque figures (290-300lb). Is there something different about the BAM engines which might cause mapping to have different effects? One thought that did cross my mind is what N75 valve comes as standard on BAM cars? Could it be a J valve? I'll confirm this either way when I remove mine and replace it with s3daves.

Have you tried running your car with the N75 electronically unplugged yet?

I am having boost issues on my BAM and I believe it's either the turbo to charge pipe hose or the N75. I have a hose on order and someone is lending me a 6 month old N75 to test with so I should know what my issue is by the weekend.

 

[[Dave B]]

Have you tried running your car with the N75 electronically unplugged yet?

No not yet. I'm hoping to do that tonight. What's the expected behaviour with the N75 electronically unplugged? I take it everything should remain the same as the N75 is still not managing boost? I suppose I should expect an ECL to go with it...

 

[Westy]

No not yet. I'm hoping to do that tonight. What's the expected behaviour with the N75 electronically unplugged? I take it everything should remain the same as the N75 is still not managing boost? I suppose I should expect an ECL to go with it...

I'm not sure what to expect mate, that's why I was interested to hear from you what happens. I'm sure Bill could shed some light. I was guessing that the ECU would just produce the amount of boost in the map table, kind of like what happens when you unplug the MAF!?

 

[<tuffty/>]

No not yet. I'm hoping to do that tonight. What's the expected behaviour with the N75 electronically unplugged? I take it everything should remain the same as the N75 is still not managing boost? I suppose I should expect an ECL to go with it...

You will run on actuator pressure only and it will throw a fault code saying the N75 is open circuit..

<tuffty/>

 

[Westy]

You will run on actuator pressure only and it will throw a fault code saying the N75 is open circuit..

<tuffty/>

Is this a safe test to do Paul?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Is this a safe test to do Paul?

Electrically unplugging the N75 is fine and perfectly safe... disconnecting the pipes is not such a good idea though ;P

In normal operation the N75 is cycled to cut boost pressure to the actuator thus controlling boost... when disconnected it simply allows boost pressure directly to the actuator which will open (thus controlling boost) at its designed opening pressure which is around 0.5bar....

<tuffty/>

 

[Westy]

Electrically unplugging the N75 is fine and perfectly safe... disconnecting the pipes is not such a good idea though ;P

In normal operation the N75 is cycled to cut boost pressure to the actuator thus controlling boost... when disconnected it simply allows boost pressure directly to the actuator which will open (thus controlling boost) at its designed opening pressure which is around 0.5bar....

<tuffty/>

Thanks. I may give this a go this evening too.

 

[[Dave B]]

So to clarify, if the N75 is indeed broken we expect that it is currently diverting air into the intake rather than the actuator which is causing excessive boost, and therefore if the N75 is electronically unplugged it will default to diverting air into the actuator meaning the car should only boost to 0.5bar, which should be reported as 500mbar actual boost in vagcom....?

Is this correct or have I completely missed the point

 

[<tuffty/>]

So to clarify, if the N75 is indeed broken we expect that it is currently diverting air into the intake rather than the actuator which is causing excessive boost, and therefore if the N75 is electronically unplugged it will default to diverting air into the actuator meaning the car should only boost to 0.5bar, which should be reported as 500mbar actual boost in vagcom....?

Is this correct or have I completely missed the point

Correct operation of the N75 will bleed boost into the intake rather than the actuator to get the boost up... guessing yours is doing this too much which could mean the N75 is a little sticky and finding it difficult to control initial boost spike..

VAGCOM should report 1500mb iirc as its ambient +boost

<tuffty/>

 

[s3gazz]

off topic but a little quicky

what gains would i see off 3"tip rufly car running alot better now iv got a forge 007p was the split **** lol
anyway wanting 3" tip some time soon what can i see from this got fmic, newspeed filter, 007p, n249 bypass, mapped but going on dyno in a week.

running 200 g/s 250bhp and 250 torqe

tar for any help guys soz for any going over it again and again.

 

[badger5]

varies between +8g/s to19g/s in airflow terms from what I have seen myself, and customers posting their results..

Danes rose from 196g/s to 215g/s from his stage 1 RTech map

 

[s3gazz]

varies between +8g/s to19g/s in airflow terms from what I have seen myself, and customers posting their results..

Danes rose from 196g/s to 215g/s from his stage 1 RTech map

cheers bill good enough for me mate ill need this on before i put it on dyno then so but get hand in pocket lol
ill ring u bill to order tar again

 

[[Dave B]]

Ok, I've just done a run with the N75 electronically disconnected. It didn't throw an ECL but it log a fault in Vagcom - N75 Open circuit. I then did a third gear run from 1500rpm to 6000rpm and the lack of diverted boost was noticeable, the logs are below:

So, does this mean that my actuators doing it's job but my N75 may not be i.e. it's sticking open and passing through too much boost?

 

[Westy]

Nice one Funky. I have no idea what that means but I'm assuming that as you now dont have any boost spikes its safe to say that your N75 is shot!

 

[<tuffty/>]

Ok, I've just done a run with the N75 electronically disconnected. It didn't throw an ECL but it log a fault in Vagcom - N75 Open circuit. I then did a third gear run from 1500rpm to 6000rpm and the lack of diverted boost was noticeable, the logs are below:

So, does this mean that my actuators doing it's job but my N75 may not be i.e. it's sticking open and passing through too much boost?

I could be wrong but the actuator does look a little on the weak side... would need to test a known working one for comparison... a weak actuator would give probs controlling boost too...

Plumbing the other N75 in should tell you if the N75 is the problem but I wouldn't be surprised if your actuator is a little tired too

<tuffty/>

 

[[Dave B]]

Ok, i'll give the other N75 a go later this week and do another log. IF it got to the stage where the actuator was weakened, what's the damage on a replacement?

 

[Westy]

Tuffty what are you reading to understand the actuator? Can the actuator be tightened by turning the arm?

 

[s3dave]

Yes could he give it a bit more preload on the actuator,? i would try the other valve first though.....

 

[[Dave B]]

I've just been noseying around the N75 valve to see what I need to do when changing the N75 tomorrow night (new hose clips arrive tomorrow) and I noticed that one of the hoses that should enter the TIP isn't connected to the TIP. It looks like it runs from the top of the throttle body, what is the purpose of this hose and what are the impacts of not being connected?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Erm... think it should be mate, its the breather for the charcoal filter... there is an outlet on the TIP for it... pretty sure I connected it up...

You will be drawing in unmetered air without it in if the port on the TIP is open...

<tuffty/>

 

[[Dave B]]

I saw the open port in the TIP for it so i've connected it up but I don't think it was connected as the jubille clip on TIP port was very loose and didn't look like it had been tightened enough to grip the port (if that makes any sense?). I wouldn't of thought this port was under enough pressure to pop out? Anyway it's connected up now and the test n75 should get fitted tomorrow so i'll report back after that.

If the TIP port was drawing in air, that wouldn't have any impact on the tweaking Bill did with the CC map would it?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Would have affected fuel trims a bit but they will settle back down... no idea why that would have come out or not be tight mate, maybe I just didn't notice it first 3" TIP fitting an all... no excuse really as I am normally quite fastidious about these things...

Wideband lambda will have compensated for the air so all will be good... ironically had a TT in last night with the same sort of high boost issue... was spiking at 26psi like yours and was an early Revo map... Bill turned the boost request down and even though VCDS reported 1 bar boost request it was still spiking over 25psi... changed the N75 out for a known working one and it was much better but still wanted to spike... tested the actuator and that seemed fine too... I can't remember what the conclusion was but the solution was to stick an MBC in parallel... granted its glossing over the issue a bit but without a few more hours of messing about with stuff its gonna take a while to get to the bottom of it... plus not knowing its history you don't know how long it was like that, if it had been running 26psi since it was mapped etc....

Apologies for missing that pipe though as I can only assume I did...

<tuffty/>

 

[[Dave B]]

No worries mate, I'm not pointing fingers I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't affect the map config. To be honest given how hidden that TIP port is I wouldn't have noticed it myself if I wasn't around that area checking the N75 hose clips.

Regarding the similar issue with the TT, I am starting to think that it's something to do with the BAM setup that's causing the spike. I've noticed a few users of this forum and a few in other forums who have experienced spikey boost curves/high PSI with just a map and they all seem to be on BAM engines. I'm going to swap out the N75 but I get the feeling there'll still be an outstanding issue after that

Re. the TT, when the MBC was fitted, what impact did it have on peak power and the rate at which EGT protection was enforced? What PSI was the MBC set to?