JMB RetrofitsChris Nott
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  1. #1
    dany2k's Avatar
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    stage one remap vs stage two remap

    hi all,
    i've owned my 1.8tq long enough now to know im keeping it for a good while: indeed until im settled into my new house and can justify upgrading to a 8p s3.

    my question is: is there much of a difference between a stage one v stage two map on a 1.8tq? i dont think ill ever be able to justify a turbo upgrade and the associated internals, especially with 8l s3s coming in at 4000.

    what you think?

    danny
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

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  3. #2
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    check out jabba sport they'll explain it

  4. #3
    Welly's Avatar
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    A lot of work to fit the associated parts for a stage 2 remap on a TQS - most notably, the downpipe which is the big one really - it is a must.

    If I were you mate I would leave it.

    You'll get 10 BHP at the absolute most I would think, and put everything under yet more pressure which just encourages things to break. Fair enough when you are gaining 50- 60 BHP, but for 10? Not sure it's worth it. Stage 1 remaps get towards pushing the K03 turbo to it's limits, they don't have much more to give.

    Spend the money on something else - beer for example.
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  5. #4
    mk1chopper's Avatar
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    if your planning on getting an 8P S3 dont bother spending any more money on your current motor

  6. #5
    dany2k's Avatar
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    hi all, thanks for ur input. ive just had a look and the general idea is just right: stage 2 is going to be a nono! i think i can justify a stage 1 remap to tick me over until i get myself on a secure enough footing to get the s3: just wanted to know if stage 2 was a realistic option... guess not!
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

  7. #6
    Welly's Avatar
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    There you go dude, you can use the money you save on buying some tickets from an Iranian spammer.... Happy days.

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  8. #7
    dany2k's Avatar
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    damn, the pun is lost due to the disappearance of our iranian friend's post!
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

  9. #8
    JamJay's Avatar
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    It depends whether you have a K03 or K03s turbocharger. I'd say that Stage 2 K03s was worth it personally as the gains are greater.

    Stage 1 K03s - 210 > 215bhp
    Stage 2 K03s - 235 > 245bhp

    This is how it goes on MK1 Leon Cupra anyway and unless the A3 has any limitations over it then I'd expect you got the same.

  10. #9
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    235/245bhp on a K03s?? hummmm

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  11. #10
    JamJay's Avatar
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    I guess it's dyno dependant but that is the general feeling. I don't own K03 but the same figures are reported by the Ibiza Cupra owners also.

    I have noticed however that K04 FWD seems to produce better dyno figures that AWD K04 for example on the same dyno...perhaps this is a difference between the marques then.

  12. #11
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamJay View Post
    I guess it's dyno dependant but that is the general feeling. I don't own K03 but the same figures are reported by the Ibiza Cupra owners also.

    I have noticed however that K04 FWD seems to produce better dyno figures that AWD K04 for example on the same dyno...perhaps this is a difference between the marques then.
    Yeah, maybe, but the fundamental requirements are still the same, as they are the same engines.

    I'm not saying your wrong - but look at it from this perspective:

    To make 235 - 245 BHP, the engine physically needs to flow in the region of approx 188 - 196 G/S of air. This isn't speculation, it's just how it is.

    The most I have EVER heard of a K03S turbo'd engine making was Prawn's at just into the 180s (approx 225 BHP). And that was more than just your average motor, it had a reasonable amount of work done.

    My K03S AGU managed to make a best ever flow of about 177 g/s (221 BHP), again, far from stock.

    IMO, K03S turbos cannot make that horsepower - they just can't.

    Anyway, moving on, as this is a done over again and again subject... lol.
    Last edited by Welly; 6th January 2011 at 12:22.
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  13. #12
    dany2k's Avatar
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    hi jay, thanks for the input. im 99% sure ive got a ajq k03 so was expecting around 210 give or take a couple or bhp after a remap. ill compliment it with a cotton filter and a forge 007p, but once thats done, she's getting no more outta me

    as for the vw/audi/seat/skoda same engine, different tuning god knows! i rememba that mk1 150bhp seat leon's outperformed mk4 150 golf gtis: probably to do with weight differences etc. saying that, coming from a mk4 golf to a mk1 a3, i gotta say that the audi just feels a lot better put together... deffo a better place to be on the motorway!
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

  14. #13
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dany2k View Post
    hi jay, thanks for the input. im 99% sure ive got a ajq k03 so was expecting around 210 give or take a couple or bhp after a remap. ill compliment it with a cotton filter and a forge 007p, but once thats done, she's getting no more outta me

    as for the vw/audi/seat/skoda same engine, different tuning god knows! i rememba that mk1 150bhp seat leon's outperformed mk4 150 golf gtis: probably to do with weight differences etc. saying that, coming from a mk4 golf to a mk1 a3, i gotta say that the audi just feels a lot better put together... deffo a better place to be on the motorway!
    I totally agree with you mate. A remap is well worth it, it will transform the car completely. You'll be plenty happy with it, and it will easily tide you over until you decide to move on.

    Plus it will give it a better resale value...
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  15. #14
    s3dave's Avatar
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    Dont know how much buy, but the seats respond better to the maps over and over for some reason....?
    I think its because the AWD will sit heavier on the rollers maybe?
    Last edited by s3dave; 6th January 2011 at 12:35.

  16. #15
    dany2k's Avatar
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    true say welly, leave the big power to the s3s ;-)

    as for the awd and rollers it does stand to reason. maybe the rollers just outright lie
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

  17. #16
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dany2k View Post
    maybe the rollers just outright lie
    Some do mate.
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  18. #17
    JD09's Avatar
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    Where's Bill's dyno lottery picture...

    Welly, come give me the kick up the backside I need to get a remap on mine!

  19. #18
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD09 View Post
    Welly, come give me the kick up the backside I need to get a remap on mine!
    OK.

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by JD09 View Post
    Where's Bill's dyno lottery picture...
    Good question. I Googled the term 'Dyno Lottery' on image search and one of the results was titled: hentai masterbation girls videos.

    WTF?
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  20. #19
    <tuffty/>'s Avatar
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    I will have to sort out a 'spring' (or when the weather gets a bit better at least) dyno day at Bill's... you can get your car mapped then ;P

    <tuffty/>
    Silver 2001 AMK S3. Silver alcantara interior... now with added powarrrrrrrr, torques. VAGCOM + KII-USB. >> My build thread...

  21. #20
    dany2k's Avatar
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    3rd VW Golf GTI of the day now remapped ... Good healthy car now making 210bhp ... 60bhp more than standard .. Nice and smooth as well.

    comment feed on more-bhp.com damn i wish i had that kinda performance gain lol!
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

  22. #21
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    You're all *******s! haha. Ko3S FWD all the way i say!

    My old large port AGU with a ko3S and stage 2 map makes 187-189g/s every day of the week, it made 238bhp at Storm ( I put that down to the dyno lottery though) and 225bhp at JKM several times with a boost leak from the PCV, it's much quicker since fixing the leak.

    My new AUM engined KO3S A3 makes 183-185g/s on the road. At Bills dyno day it made 224bhp on his rollers, with just a stage 1 Rtech map, jetex filter and a 3'' downpipe. on the 224bhp run it flowed just 175.5 g/s, so it's flowing 10g/s more on the road.
    Fuelling on the stage 1 map goes rich at 5k to stop the std downpipe overheating, so power is lost there for sure.

    Out on the road the AGU KO3S car is quicker than the AUM, both with a full interior. I've raced the pair of them with a mate, and there's a fair difference. So considering the slower car has 224bhp, i don't think it'd be unreasonable to say the AGU is at 230-235bhp.

    it's also worth noting that the FWD stage 2 ko3S car with the front mount and CC2 map is quicker than a mapped S3 in a straight line. That wouldn't be the case with a TQ though, due to the weight.

    The most important thing to note though, about the stage 1 vs 2 maps, is that it's not peak power which is hugely increased, it's midrange power.

    Whilst peak power might only go up by 10-15bhp, the midrange power can rise by 30-40 bhp across a large range, due to the extra boost allowed by the downpipe, and FMIC keeping temps down.

    Still, if you're saving for an 8P s3, and you've got a ko3 rather than a ko3S, I'd just get a stage 1 map, stage 2 is a good bit more work. you'll still be more than happy with it!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  23. #22
    dany2k's Avatar
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    good man prawn, i think m position on this is clear: stage 1, deal with it :-)

    ooh and more-bhp are offering remaps for 175.00 at the moment: I used them before for a golf gt tdi... seemed professional and knowledgeable enough! wonder what software map they use.
    Audi A3 8L 1.8T Quattro 180 in black. Totally standard: for now...

  24. #23
    JD09's Avatar
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    Nice post Prawn, very informative.

    Welly, Paul, found it!


 

 

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