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Thread: Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

  1. #2721
    Welly's Avatar
    VX220 SC Driver :)

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    Soo chuffed for you Prawny - good work dude
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  3. #2722
    nanananananananan BATMAN

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    dude thats insane well done dude!!!!

    My rides thread : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-f...t-journey.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox1 View Post
    Healthy??? no,no,noooo

    Mine is healthy


    yours is on steriods!!!

  4. #2723
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigal 1 View Post
    Not if you are running 235 Yoko full wets
    From what I have been told, wets will make no difference at all, its an animal. Strictly a dry weather car. I will have to learn to drive it all over again and probably on actuator most of the time. Can't wait.

  5. #2724
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    at last a 2283 comp wheel flowing what its capable of...
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  6. #2725
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    at last a 2283 comp wheel flowing what its capable of...
    It probably helps that it has actually been rebuilt right...

  7. #2726
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    Hats off to you 350 bhp is great and must be good fun in fwd, is your the most power fwd audi on this forum. I also had some good news with mine making 510 bhp with more to go with 1000cc fuel injectors and more boost
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  8. #2727
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    Still can't stop grinning today, just thinking about it!

    So, a pretty wicked few days for me I must admit.

    After the drama of epic vibrations on Saturday afternoon, and spending most of sunday changing bits and test driving to no avail, I eventually pulled out the one bit it couldn't be, and found the NEW pass side shaft had a failled inner CV.

    Luckily, Bobby found me a pair on ebay in London, and a 3 hour round trip saw me with a pair of new shafts. result.

    I fitted the new pass side shaft on Monday morning, then decided to go on an extended test drive to see Gareth at Ace Engineering so I could use his corner scales to weigh the car and see how close my home setup had been on the corner weights.

    I left home, and put enough fuel in to take it to just over half a tank, in the hope that I'd arrive at Gareths with exactly half a tank for the weigh in. Lucikly, with a bit of frugal driving for the last 20 miles, I was pretty much bang on half a tank when I arrived.

    it's a 54L tank, so half a tank being 27L. Specific gravity of petrol is 0.737, so 27L of fuel weighs 19.9L, or I'll assume 20 in this case

    I arrived at Gareths, and parked up amongst the fleet of Northloop cars:





    We got the car into position and setup the corner weight ramps ready to drive the car on:



    And up onto the scales:



    And the results: it's a bit heavier than I expected, but the diagonal cross didn't seem too bad considering it'd just been levelled with a tape measure:



    And with me in the diagonal weight slightly the other way:



    Still, not too terrible for something that's never been setup before. I've got a few more things to move around then change, and about another 2 stone to lose myself, then I'll invest in a proper setup and corner weighting session.

    Big thanks to Gareth for being able to fit me in at such short notice, we only arranged it that morning as I had a day off I hadn't really planned. Good to see you again sir

    With that done, I helped Gareth deliver a customers car, then headed home to complete my 100 miles extended test drive, and was all set for R-tech on Tuesday!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  9. #2728
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    Congrats mate epic result
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  10. #2729
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    Quote Originally Posted by s3dave View Post
    It probably helps that it has actually been rebuilt right...
    fo sho
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  11. #2730
    nanananananananan BATMAN

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    thats pretty good weight distro there, been thinking the last week to get mine on a scale and see where all the weight sits.

    stupid question but whats the difference with BHP and WHP? for instance if my car is 220 wheel horse power what will the bhp be?

    My rides thread : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-f...t-journey.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox1 View Post
    Healthy??? no,no,noooo

    Mine is healthy


    yours is on steriods!!!

  12. #2731
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIGGZ View Post
    stupid question but whats the difference with BHP and WHP? for instance if my car is 220 wheel horse power what will the bhp be?
    depends on the losses... which vary between cars
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  13. #2732
    nanananananananan BATMAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    depends on the losses... which vary between cars
    ok so is 220whp good power then of the std k03s?
    in South Africa its strong but im not sure anywhere else?

    My rides thread : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-f...t-journey.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox1 View Post
    Healthy??? no,no,noooo

    Mine is healthy


    yours is on steriods!!!

  14. #2733
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    yes very good.. BUT, meaningless when trying to compare to other rollers figures
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  15. #2734
    nanananananananan BATMAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    yes very good.. BUT, meaningless when trying to compare to other rollers figures
    point taken thanks bill

    My rides thread : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-f...t-journey.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox1 View Post
    Healthy??? no,no,noooo

    Mine is healthy


    yours is on steriods!!!

  16. #2735
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Since the day I picked the car up back in February, Niki and I have been talking about sticking rods in it, and bringing it back to see what it can really do.

    Finally that day came, and the car was booked into R-tech for a map tweak on Nov 20th.

    R-tech being 130 miles away, I was up early, and had my standard 'day out' breakfast of a hybrid Pasta n Sauce, 1x Cheese and Broccoli hybridised with 1x Cheese leak and ham pasta n sauce. Properly awesome combo.



    And we're off!



    All was going well as I headed up the A34, with the car feeling good.



    Until I got to oxford and everything just seemed to stop. I was due at R-tech at 0930, so wasn't too impressed with this:



    Quick stop in a petrol station for another coffee





    I arrived at R-tech at 09:35, and went to drive up onto the ramp, only to find my splitter caught the ramp and it wouldn't go on, so the bumper had to come off:



    And onto the ramp it went:



    Trying to load the car onto the dyno, it was sitting FAR too low in the rollers, so really annoyingly, after checking all the corner weights just the day before, I had to raise the coilovers at the front to be able to get it strapped down properly

    I took measurements, and will reset the coilovers to the same height as near as I possibly can.

    It was much colder at R-tech this week compared to Badger 5 last weekend, just 12 degrees inside the unit. Niki also has the benefit of a back door, with a few strategically placed fans to draw fresh cold air in from outside, rather than sucking in the warmer air from inside the workshop.

    so, with almost ideal atmospheric conditions for the dyno (cold and wet), a base line run was done, with some really quite surprising results!



    318bhp and 310lbft, exactly as it arrived. Very promising indeed. On the old engine with this very same map, it previously made 291bhp at R-tech in feb, so the new engine is 27bhp up on the old one in similar conditions. This was at the original 18psi of boost.

    The guys always use a bit of WD40 type spray to help the car get traction on the rollers, but after the first run, we noticed the rollers had gone black. Jim and Niki both said they hadn't seen that before, there was like a layer of rubber coated on the rollers from my RS-Rs!





    Sticky!!

    After a few issues (Niki had to pop out to attend his daughters school where she was ill - all OK now thankfully), Niki and Jim got to work with doing some load testing and making alterations to the map:



    Nikis concentration face:



    Strapped down with the fans in place:



    The new ECU live emulator Niki has is absolutely fantastic, they load a copy of my map onto the emulator ECU, and run it on this, which can then be live mapped whilst the car is running on the dyno. So different to the old fashioned bench flash / change and re-flash method that used to be necessary with the ME3.8 ECU.



    Adam Hobden popped in to say hello and was proudly showing off his new T3/4 monster turbo, having realised his ko4 hybrid was never going to beat mine



    Niki carried on mapping, without the help of the water meth at first. it went up to 325bhp/318lbft first, then a few more tweaks saw 331bhp / 327lbft, with the car swallowing up LOADS of ignition advance and not pulling any corrections at all. Boost was kept at a peak of 21psi, which we both agreed we didn't want to go above.

    Just before lunch, a few more tweaks saw us at 344bhp and 343lbft, still on the smallest meth nozzle, rated by AEM to 200bhp. Still seeing very little heat produced, and no corrections to the timing at all.



    After lunch, Jim fitted the medium sized meth nozzle, which we had always planned to end up on, and Niki ran the car again, similar results again, 344bhp with 21 degrees ignition advance, 2-3 degrees pull in the midrange after some very heavy brake testing (out of a possible 12), but still no pull at all at the top end. Niki decided to try dialing some more timing in above 4500rpm, and the grin on his face after the first run said it all!

    A bit more testing, and a few more runs, and Niki found that the car would happily take 27 degrees of timing at the top end without any CF's at all, and was making amazing power.

    We settled on 25.5 degrees of timing from 4500rpm to the limiter at 7500rpm, which resulted in final figures of 353bhp and 345lbft, still at 21psi peak boost. It's still not pulling any timing at the top end, AFR is 11.9:1, and despite repeated load testing and brake testing on the dyno, right after the 353bhp run, the inlet manifold was ice cold to touch, and even the cam cover was cool enough that you could hold your hand on it, so that's where it stayed, at the full fat 353bhp.




    A few other hyrbids have come close to this, one making 352bhp, and one making 348bhp, but these have both needed lots of boost to make this figure, and have been generating crazy heat, with the results not being sustainable, so Niki has pulled them all back to around 330bhp for the road. Unlike these, mine is making 353bhp with less heat than you'd usually see at 330bhp, the way it flows is just amazing.

    The car feels absolutely incredible to drive, with over 330bhp held from 5000-7000rpm, and torque holding above 300lbft from 3500-6400rpm. a very broad spread indeed 3rd gear when it hooks up, from 5-7.5k rpm, is absolutely ballistic, proper hold on tight roller coaster stuff if I'm honest.

    Actuator pressure remains very smooth and sensible, with 287bhp and 276lbft at 15psi.

    All in all, I could not be happier with the result at all, I owe Niki, Jim, and ben a HUGE thank you for spending so long on the car, the guys cleared the diary for the whole day for me, and had no other customers all day long, just Niki and Jim, all day on my car getting it right, with Ben manning the phone and sorting out anyone who came to speak to Niki.

    The drive home was entertaining in the rain, and pretty scary when I did try full boost in the wet. I'm really looking forward to getting it out on the open road on a dry day.

    One last cheeky flame pic:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  17. #2736
    superkarl's Avatar
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    why does it cope so well with heat unlike other hybrid builds?
    what were egt's at?

  18. #2737
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    others have needed much more boost to make the same figures, this doesn't because it flows SO well, and has higher compression. large port head, large port inlet, full 3'' exhaust, it's all helping

    Also, just as retared ignition makes things hot, hugely advanced ignition helps keep things cool, this is running at 25.5 degrees where Niki said the most he's dialed into other hybrids has been 21 degrees, and beyond this they've pulled too much out. it's allowing all the extra timing because everything is flowing so well.

    The badger 5 ported hotside, coupled with Dan attacking it even further with a die grinder has to help too, most hybrids are just bored right through in a butcher fashion like CR do, where mine is nicely ported.

    Also, the 7 degree clip on the turbine wheel, although intended to try and kill the surge, will also be allowing it to flow at the top end a little better than an unclipped wheel. On other forums for other brands you often hear of people clipping turbines to increase top end flow

    It's all little things, but clearly when you add them all together it's the reason mine is making 350bhp sustainably where others will only make 330
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  19. #2738
    chaz20vt's Avatar
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    Re: Prawns A3 track car / Nurburgring toy

    Excellent read mate
    Good work

  20. #2739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    others have needed much more boost to make the same figures, this doesn't because it flows SO well, and has higher compression. large port head, large port inlet, full 3'' exhaust, it's all helping

    Also, just as retared ignition makes things hot, hugely advanced ignition helps keep things cool, this is running at 25.5 degrees where Niki said the most he's dialed into other hybrids has been 21 degrees, and beyond this they've pulled too much out. it's allowing all the extra timing because everything is flowing so well.

    The badger 5 ported hotside, coupled with Dan attacking it even further with a die grinder has to help too, most hybrids are just bored right through in a butcher fashion like CR do, where mine is nicely ported.

    Also, the 7 degree clip on the turbine wheel, although intended to try and kill the surge, will also be allowing it to flow at the top end a little better than an unclipped wheel. On other forums for other brands you often hear of people clipping turbines to increase top end flow

    It's all little things, but clearly when you add them all together it's the reason mine is making 350bhp sustainably where others will only make 330
    nice work. Are you running 25.5 degrees timing with no wmi as well? Can't remember if your nozzle is place to help with timing or to cool the charge?

    I just looked some logs I did last night and I'm averaging around 16 degrees timing with no pull. So 25.5 is epic! When looking at the timing pull it doesn't tell you how little timing you have just how much . So like Nick said you could have CF0 and high egts due to it being retarded or you can have cf0 and it spot on and 100 degree lower egts! I guess the benefit live mapping has is you can pinpoint exact points to add timing to get the max rather than adding say 3 degrees across a section which might give you retard in one point and spot on in another.

    Also turbo working at a lower boost level is more efficient and thus the air being pumped is also cooler so running extra boost doesn't mean its better. Boost v timing

  21. #2740
    Prawn's Avatar
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    Niki said it was happily running the 25.5 degrees of timing without WMI as well if asked yes.

    I think you're very right about the CF's issue.

    Niki said at 21 degrees timing he was seeing pull in the mid range, and a tiny bit at the top under very hard testing, and when he raised the timing another 4.5 degrees that pull all vanished, more than likely down to being more efficient and lower EGT's.

    Niki did seem very happy with it himself too, and said that the flow was amazing, and it was taking more timing than any hybrid like this he'd done before
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  22. #2741
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    Can Niki map the timing to change depending on the EGTs or is your ECU too dumb for that?
    8P A3 TDI - 220bhp - 335lbft
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  23. #2742
    Prawn's Avatar
    My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    Can Niki map the timing to change depending on the EGTs or is your ECU too dumb for that?
    What are these things you speak of? my ecu has no EGT capability at all
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Prawns TFSI Turbo'd 1.8T Track Car

    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  24. #2743
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Niki said it was happily running the 25.5 degrees of timing without WMI as well if asked yes.

    I think you're very right about the CF's issue.

    Niki said at 21 degrees timing he was seeing pull in the mid range, and a tiny bit at the top under very hard testing, and when he raised the timing another 4.5 degrees that pull all vanished, more than likely down to being more efficient and lower EGT's.

    Niki did seem very happy with it himself too, and said that the flow was amazing, and it was taking more timing than any hybrid like this he'd done before
    The other thing to bear in mind is that the ambient temp is quite cold at the moment. Take it on a track in the summer and those IATs will climb, giving you more ignition correction. Risky as you can't monitor whilst on he track.

    Never worth running the CFs close to the mark. I've always found my CF reading to be higher on the road than on the dyno, probably due to the additional loads required to pull the weight of the car.
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  25. #2744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westy View Post
    Can Niki map the timing to change depending on the EGTs or is your ECU too dumb for that?
    The 3.8 ECU is like a Kwik Fit fitter. So dumb they can't find their own backsides with both hands. (Stereotype)
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  26. #2745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    What are these things you speak of? my ecu has no EGT capability at all
    Shame, cos mine adjusts
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  27. #2746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    The 3.8 ECU is like a Kwik Fit fitter. So dumb they can't find their own backsides with both hands. (Stereotype)
    that is worthy of a quote in a signature.
    8P A3 TDI - 220bhp - 335lbft
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  28. #2747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Niki did seem very happy with it himself too, and said that the flow was amazing, and it was taking more timing than any hybrid like this he'd done before
    That large port AGU mani should really help this. I was shocked by he change in performance from the small port mani to the large. I think it was a 35 bhp bolt on gain from small port manifold to large port.

    Glad I shall also be using a LP mani out of the box, and not have to pay xtra this time!
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  29. #2748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post

    Never worth running the CFs close to the mark. I've always found my CF reading to be higher on the road than on the dyno, probably due to the additional loads required to pull the weight of the car.
    exactly, I've never liked the idea of tuning to 4's to make sure you've got it optimised.

    This is running 0 timing pull across the board, and Niki was showing me the way it's mapped vs the IATs, and if inlet temps go up it reverts to a lower timing map anyway, so timing is reduced without eating into the ECU's 12 degree pull.

    I'm going to road test it on saturday in the dry with any luck, and if it's as absolutely bonkers as I feel it might be, I might end up whacking my forge UNOS on there in parallel to the N75 anyway and capping boost at 19-20psi just to take the absolutely savage edge off it!

    Still, I'm really glad we went for the whole hog in the end and it's sustainable, as it's nice to have as a party piece, even if I don't end up using it at that output all the time
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    But I know nothing so ignore me.

  30. #2749
    RIP S3dave

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    Before niki again steals my Mantra I'll get it in now.

    Its All About the Flow


    Question for Dan, what area did you further port the hotside?
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  31. #2750
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    Still, I'm really glad we went for the whole hog in the end and it's sustainable, as it's nice to have as a party piece, even if I don't end up using it at that output all the time
    Knowing the K04 hybrid power delivery, which is very torque punchy, I think hat may well be the case. Even in the dry I think it may be a little too lary. However, best to go and test to find out.

    The above is the main reason I went for a bigger turbo as the torque delivery is less urgent.

    Even if you don't use it all the time, it can be referred to as 'Dyno Day Mode'. :-)
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  32. #2751
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    That my friend is very impressive, all the thoroughness you put into the mods has added up and as tesco say ' every little helps' . But please put some filler in the rear dents / crease it's annoying me now lol!

    Going to throw a few questions out there prawn, how easy is it to drive? What 0-60 times ect you looking at? Is there anything performance wise you are not happy with? If you were starting over again would you do anything specifically different?????

    Cheers, Sean

  33. #2752
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    Quote Originally Posted by s33nyboy12 View Post
    If you were starting over again would you do anything specifically different?????
    4wd

  34. #2753
    RIP S3dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    4wd
    oh dear
    **http://www.facebook.com/Badger5Ltd**

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  35. #2754
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    4wd
    I was Gunna throw that out there , but I'm glad you did instead! :-)

  36. #2755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    Knowing the K04 hybrid power delivery, which is very torque punchy, I think hat may well be the case. Even in the dry I think it may be a little too lary. However, best to go and test to find out.

    The above is the main reason I went for a bigger turbo as the torque delivery is less urgent.

    Even if you don't use it all the time, it can be referred to as 'Dyno Day Mode'. :-)
    Pretty similar to the 'M' sport button on the newer BMW's. I can't really see the point of it myself.

    If you want a performance car, you want a performance car. Having a performance car when you push a button is a bit gay.


  37. #2756
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    oh dear
    Quote Originally Posted by s33nyboy12 View Post
    I was Gunna throw that out there , but I'm glad you did instead! :-)
    someone at some point was going to say it!
    i just went in. deep
    s33nyboy12 likes this.

  38. #2757
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    oh dear
    Do you not agree that for a car that spends some of it's time on the road, a Quattro would be beneficial?! I can almost guarantee that when the Garrett is fitted to mine, I won't get 90mph wheel spins.


  39. #2758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reesy View Post
    Do you not agree that for a car that spends some of it's time on the road, a Quattro would be beneficial?! I can almost guarantee that when the Garrett is fitted to mine, I won't get 90mph wheel spins.
    I do guarantee it.
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  40. #2759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reesy View Post
    Pretty similar to the 'M' sport button on the newer BMW's. I can't really see the point of it myself.

    If you want a performance car, you want a performance car. Having a performance car when you push a button is a bit gay.
    I disagree. My M3 is the same power, whether or not the 'Sport' button is on or off. Pressing it just makes the throttle more responsive.

    That's like saying why have a traction control button. It's personal preference as to whether you have it on or off.
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  41. #2760
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    Sorry to hijack and as I like graphs.

    Here is the same setup, both running CF0 but the dotted line is what I'm currently running and the solid line was with 4 degrees less timing, you can see although it's predicted EGT from the lambda and not as accurate while both show CF0 there is upto 12 degrees more timing and 50 degress lower EGT for more advance...

    Interesting possibly not, but goes to show how it can affect the running of the car.


 

 

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