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Thread: 3inch tip tests on dane's s3 from today

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    www.badger5.co.uk

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    3inch tip tests on dane's s3 from today

    okies...
    tests from today on stage 1 map from rtech on an s3 of danes.
    car has no mods at all.. aside from rods i fitted for its upgrade path planned by the owner Dane

    before any change, run on dyno on its std airbox and silicon tip, with k&n filter element. airbox had been drilled with big holes in its base by previous owner.
    logs:
    Code:
    Saturday	18	December	2010	11:43:30:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.3	Data version: 20101206									
    8N0 906 018 J		1.8L R4/5VT         0004													
    															
    	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'115			
    		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
    	TIME					TIME					TIME				
    Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	KW	KW	KW	KW	STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
    
    	409.24	1520	85.7	8.16	27.28	408.52	0	0	0	0	408.83	1520	80.5	1640	1100
    	410.35	1800	94.7	8.84	33.89	409.63	0	0	0	0	410.04	1680	92.5	1690	1200
    	411.45	2320	121.1	12.24	57	410.73	0	0	0	0	411.07	2160	108.3	2250	1350
    	412.66	2840	172.2	17.68	104.86	411.86	0	0	0	0	412.27	2680	146.6	2340	1830
    	413.89	3400	190.2	19.72	127.64	413.07	0	0	0	0	413.49	3240	185.7	2340	2320
    	415.08	3920	191	19.72	142.39	414.27	0	0	0	0	414.67	3720	190.2	2340	2310
    	416.31	4400	188	19.72	157.31	415.48	0	0	0	0	415.89	4240	188.7	2330	2320
    	417.49	4880	183.5	19.72	172.33	416.71	0	0	0	0	417.09	4720	186.5	2310	2300
    	418.69	5320	176.7	19.38	181.17	417.89	0	0	0	0	418.31	5160	180.5	2340	2220
    	419.91	5760	173.7	19.38	188.36	419.09	0	0	0	0	419.52	5600	172.9	2340	2190
    	421.1	6160	163.2	18.02	190.53	420.31	3	0	3	0	420.7	6040	166.2	2290	2110
    	422.34	6600	155.6	17	196.14	421.54	3	0	3	0	421.92	6440	157.9	2210	2090
    	423.53	7000	145.1	15.98	193.72	422.75	3	0	6	3	423.11	6880	148.9	2080	2020
    	424.77	7040	26.3	1.02	4.89	423.93	3	0	6	3	424.32	7240	128.6	1530	2260
    then 3 inch tip ws fitted along with the FR08001 filter
    dyno'd again... no other change
    Code:
    Saturday	18	December	2010	13:36:18:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.3	Data version: 20101206									
    8N0 906 018 J		1.8L R4/5VT         0004													
    															
    	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
    		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
    	TIME					TIME					TIME				
    Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	KW	KW	KW	KW	STAMP	 /min	C	 %	 mbar
    
    	153.79	1720	40.6	4.08	13.56	154.11	0	0	0	0	154.52	1560	15	0	1020
    	154.9	1600	45.1	4.42	13.83	155.33	0	0	0	0	155.7	1640	15	92.5	1060
    	156.11	1640	82.7	7.82	27.97	156.53	0	0	0	0	156.92	1640	15	94.5	1200
    	157.32	1760	93.2	8.84	32.92	157.74	0	0	0	0	158.14	2120	15	94.5	1370
    	158.53	2320	126.3	12.58	60.11	158.92	0	0	0	0	159.34	2680	15	94.5	1940
    	159.72	2880	187.2	18.7	106.94	160.04	0	0	0	0	160.43	3200	15	83.5	2110
    	160.85	3360	178.9	18.36	116.39	161.26	0	0	0	0	161.63	3680	16	83.1	2130
    	162.03	3880	186.5	18.36	138.17	162.46	0	0	0	0	162.84	4200	17	83.9	2160
    	163.16	4320	188.7	18.7	155.36	163.56	0	0	0	0	163.94	4640	18	87.5	2180
    	164.29	4800	191.7	20.06	177.11	164.67	0	0	0	0	165.06	5120	21	87.5	2210
    	165.48	5280	191.7	20.4	194.58	165.87	0	0	0	0	166.28	5600	24	93.3	2260
    	166.67	5720	190.2	19.72	208.86	167.08	0	0	0	0	167.5	6000	27	92.9	2250
    	167.88	6160	183.5	19.04	209.19	168.29	0	0	0	0	168.69	6400	31	94.5	2190
    	169.1	6520	174.4	18.02	215.28	169.51	0	0	0	0	169.93	6800	36	87.8	2120
    	170.32	6960	159.4	16.32	210.36	170.72	0	0	0	0	171.12	7200	39	74.1	2100
    bolt on g/s gains of from an intil best 196.14g/s to 215.28g/s = gained 19.14g/s of airflow

    and the before & after dyno is.....


    :D
    Pretty conclusive to me... and I was surprised to be honest in the difference.. on stock k04, on a stage 1 map, with no other performance mods on it, just changing the tip's and filter. wow!

    Also, after this we did some playing with the mapping to see if there's any more left in it, for its lack of mods.. so did a custom map for it.. and eaked a little more bhp out of the girl.
    comparison below of silicon tip, rtech stage 1, 3inch tip rtech stage 1, and a Badger5 map on it



    This has ended up the most powerful std k04 car i have run so far on my dyno..
    started with 251bhp from its map, then rose to 270bhp on that same map but with 3inch tip, then to 278bhp with some tweaks

    There was no side effect to installing the 3inch tip on th stage 1 std k04 turbo at all... just more airflow and top end sustained torque = more power.

    Well please with this result. surpasses my expectations

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  3. #2
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    Ive been waiting for these results. i am running a stage one map k&n panel and will be ordering a 3" tip plus a jetex.in the new year once servicing and clutch replacement is carried out.
    Mine has been dyno'd at just over 250bhp also. So judging by this i am extremely keen to fit one! glad to hear of no side affects on a standard k04, i think ill be fabricating a heat shield for mine though.
    Got to be happy with that dane!?

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    handy andy's Avatar
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    Interesting reading....Do you have any idea how effective your 3" tip will be,using the standard airbox and filter Bill????

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    Excellent news....did not get mine fitted today because of a serious hangover from works doo...

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    Oe airbox alone I think slightly less than the JR filter shown, but I did'nt have time to try that test today so have no data. On previous panel filter for JR filter I have seen 5-8g/s gains as a maximum, but on dyno also seen nada power gain.. despite more airflow. (weird I know, but I've seen it happen)
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    WOW! Bill, superb results!

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    Oh yeah! shame it's too god damn icy to try it out. Cheers for all your hard work Bill!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane View Post
    Oh yeah! shame it's too god damn icy to try it out. Cheers for all your hard work Bill!
    Ah, booooo.... you need to find a nice empty car park mate... oh... you did ;P

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    Excellent Bill, the proof in the RR, bet people will be spending their Christmas money on these now the results are in.

    no speeding around cheltenham now Dane, bet your well chuffed

    out of interest Bill what did you tweak?? I might have to pop down and get mine 'tweaked' soon if that ok

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    Dane's Avatar
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    haha and swiftly got asked to leave

    Should be a good show when it's not all ice, I think the council have run out of grit lol, see if i can blow away something interesting

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    Good stuff, I better start saving... lol


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    I would be tempted if I didnt want to keep the standard engine look.

    2003 Audi S3 + Go faster bits

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    Quote Originally Posted by MintyS3 View Post
    I would be tempted if I didnt want to keep the standard engine look.
    Can be made to fit the std airbox... just need to trim the silicon a little to get it to fit...

    <tuffty/>
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    It would look very standard with the OE airbox, you can't see it unless you are looking for it. You could also spray the joiner black

    I just went for the cone filter for a change, but plan to try and frig it into a modified OE box

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    Were these just over 100?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD09 View Post
    Were these just over 100?
    full 76mm/3" k04 LCR/S3/TT TIP gauging interest.. - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    Oe airbox alone I think slightly less than the JR filter shown, but I did'nt have time to try that test today so have no data. On previous panel filter for JR filter I have seen 5-8g/s gains as a maximum, but on dyno also seen nada power gain.. despite more airflow. (weird I know, but I've seen it happen)
    nada????

    I'm still interested.

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    www.badger5.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by handy andy View Post
    nada????

    I'm still interested.
    gains i have seen are 8bhp but thats going to a JR from a crappy CDA box which was too small.. On an LCR and S3 thats been thru here..
    reality being it had lost power from the CDA and just recovered it and a little more perhaps when the JR was fitted.

    Danes airbox was full of holes in its base from previous owner so not a stock airbox, and had a k&n element in it
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    Good gains

    Nice work Bill
    Was 531bhp 8L S3 thats going to break the 600+ bhp Club then break something else. Lets see what this OD HTAGT3582r can do
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    Quote Originally Posted by tufftybloke View Post
    Can be made to fit the std airbox... just need to trim the silicon a little to get it to fit...

    <tuffty/>
    Are there any photo's of the set-up using the standard airbox,as i'd like to keep mine looking standard.

    Cheers
    Andy

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    update:
    on SCN an LCR with 3inch tip, and new AmD stage 2 gained power... breaking into the 300bhp numbers for the first time on stock k04 (on AmD's rollers)

    Everyone was shocked and believed the new TIP was really helping!

    Thanks Bill




    more info here> full 76mm/3" k04 LCR/S3/TT TIP gauging interest.. - Page 23 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

    Sorry Andy. not seen your post. pictures on OE airbox in here also in the thread above.


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    cant be right surely? no disrespect to Bill or AMD but that sorta means wellys hybrid and other mods gave him 14bhp lol

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    I have been wondering about this the past few days.....

    it's commonly accepted that a stage 1 S3 can make 250, yet recent tests show it'll make 270+ with Bills 3'' TIP on the same map.

    it's also commonly accepted that a fully sorted stage 2 S3 with all the gear can make 270ish.

    If the silicon TIP is restricting it by 20bhp at stage 1 level, then surely with the rest of the system able to breath much better, it must be restricting it by 20bhp or more? So it would appear on face value that a ko4 could well make 290bhp.

    Seems like you've well and truly re-written the Rule book Bill!

    I'd love to see if it's possible to make something similar for the ko3S. I know the gear selector cables are a bit arkward, but there must be a way!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    WOW! impressive results...I was waiting for a the test on a stage 1 S3 before I made up my mind, think I will be ordering one of these TIPs to go with a remap sometime soon. Good work Bill, will be in touch when funds allow...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA3 View Post
    cant be right surely? no disrespect to Bill or AMD but that sorta means wellys hybrid and other mods gave him 14bhp lol
    I might see if I can head over to AMD and do a run on their rollers to be fair. I think it would be interesting to see outputs.

    The motor in queston was making 10 ft/lbs more torque than mine is now on a Stage 1 map....

    Awesome before and after gains though - liking that a lot.
    Last edited by Welly; 10th January 2011 at 14:44.
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    Following on from that, maybe not. It's about as far away from me as the moon is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    Following on from that, maybe not. It's about as far away from me as the moon is.
    haha yeh fair enough mate. would be interesting but probs only go if u can make a day of it somewhere near by with the missus or something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prawn View Post
    I have been wondering about this the past few days.....

    it's commonly accepted that a stage 1 S3 can make 250, yet recent tests show it'll make 270+ with Bills 3'' TIP on the same map.

    it's also commonly accepted that a fully sorted stage 2 S3 with all the gear can make 270ish.

    If the silicon TIP is restricting it by 20bhp at stage 1 level, then surely with the rest of the system able to breath much better, it must be restricting it by 20bhp or more? So it would appear on face value that a ko4 could well make 290bhp.

    Seems like you've well and truly re-written the Rule book Bill!

    I'd love to see if it's possible to make something similar for the ko3S. I know the gear selector cables are a bit arkward, but there must be a way!
    i was thinking about this also. i will try post a picture of what i mean. quick paint knock up! brb 2 mins

    Edit: Like this:




    A more diagonal neck to avoid the crappy gear cables would need to check for routing etc but i think thats an idea at least
    Last edited by DaveA3; 10th January 2011 at 15:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA3 View Post
    cant be right surely? no disrespect to Bill or AMD but that sorta means wellys hybrid and other mods gave him 14bhp lol
    dude...
    I would'nt get hung up on the headline numbers... which are subject to lottery of course... look at the gains before to after... and 28.9bhp combined with his update from stage 1 to stage 2 map, working with the 3inch TIP made for a significant step change in figures.. I said as much in the originators post on SCN, as 300bhp figures from k04, do seem high, but who knows, we're definately getting closer to seeing them happen now. Reliable hi-flow exhaust manifold *might* just tip the balance into a sustainable 300bhp from k04... you never know. it might happen.
    Last edited by badger5; 10th January 2011 at 16:21.
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  34. #33
    www.badger5.co.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA3 View Post
    i was thinking about this also. i will try post a picture of what i mean. quick paint knock up! brb 2 mins

    Edit: Like this:




    A more diagonal neck to avoid the crappy gear cables would need to check for routing etc but i think thats an idea at least
    the problem I see with the k03 TIP is the greater variance of cars they're fitted to... and on several models, as well as gear shift cables there's also a coolant pipe passing right in front of everything, and on mk3 ibiza's there's also an abs pump right next to it too..

    Its on my to do list for sure, BUT there will be more to do make such a thing fit than just bolt on like the k04 3inch tip is unfortunately..
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  35. #34
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
    Quattro ist für sissies

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    Ye be interesting to see what Danny on SCN gets once he dynos his LCR with his new ceramic coated INA mani.

    Bill, do you know if AMD have tweaked the stage 2 map at all to help get an increase of 28bhp from stage 1-2
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  36. #35
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger5 View Post
    dude...
    I would'nt get hung up on the headline numbers... which are subject to lottery of course... look at the gains before to after... and 28.9bhp combined with his update from stage 1 to stage 2 map, working with the 3inch TIP made for a significant step change in figures.. I said as much in the originators post on SCN, as 300bhp figures from k04, do seem high, but who knows, we're definately getting closer to seeing them happen now. Reliable hi-flow exhaust manifold *might* just tip the balance into a sustainable 300bhp from k04... you never know. it might happen.
    I completely agree - numbers on that maybe a little unrealitic, however it was the same dyno on the same day, and the gains are very impressive. Say the average Stage 1 S3 is 250-260. The above means that the average S3 with Stage 2 and TIP is looking to get around 280+. Combined with the manifold which could see the few BHP required to get to 300.

    Again, corresponds with the hybrids making ~330 with similar mods. It all fits and makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Nattie View Post
    Ye be interesting to see what Danny on SCN gets once he dynos his LCR with his new ceramic coated INA mani.
    A world of pain?
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  38. #37
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    How much are the 3" TIP kits?

  39. #38
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barks View Post
    no speeding around cheltenham now Dane
    Speeding is actually what Cheltenham was made for IMO.... lol
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  40. #39
    Dane's Avatar
    Faster than a V12 Q7

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    Well we wouldn't want the Saxos to think they were actually any good would we

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    Chugger

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    Im awaiting my 3" tip setup. Will be doing my own logs but looks promising. Although my car did manage to gain 9g/s on average just from fitting a pipercross panel filter. Could be looking close to the 300 mark with a full stage 2 setup and bills 3"tip + ported manifold, almost not worth going hybrid :P ahem welly
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