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  1. #1
    Welly's Avatar
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    1.8T 20V Con Rod Failures

    An interesting article for those who are interested....

    Integrated Enginering... Connecting Rod Failures Explained
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    Dane's Avatar
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    After our chat the other evening this is my next job.

  4. #3
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane View Post
    After our chat the other evening this is my next job.
    A wise decision.... It just shows that in reality, it's not if. But when.
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    Alex C's Avatar
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    have there been instances of rod failure on stage 1 maps or even just standard engines?

  6. #5
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookstein View Post
    have there been instances of rod failure on stage 1 maps or even just standard engines?
    Can't comment on standard failure rates. That article suggests it shouldn't happen really.

    However, Stage 1 failures? Yes. Me.

    Have a look at this - it's what you want to avoid.... More S3 Drama
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    Alex C's Avatar
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    ah, yeah i remember you had that failure, didnt realise you were stage 1. Do you think its too conservative to have new rods beofre going stage 1?

  8. #7
    Welly's Avatar
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    I don't think it's conservative to have new rods at any time. IMO 1.8T rods are gash.
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  9. #8
    S3 TAM's Avatar
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    Its on the massive list of things to do. Lol
    Revo Stage 2 with all the Gear
    BHP = 274 / Torque = 293




  10. #9
    DaveA3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    I don't think it's conservative to have new rods at any time. IMO 1.8T rods are gash.
    ahh man! i hate reading stuff like this it makes me think theyre gonna go now everytime i drive my car

    Audi A3 1.8T Sport (AGU) - 2000
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  11. #10
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA3 View Post
    ahh man! i hate reading stuff like this it makes me think theyre gonna go now everytime i drive my car
    You should be OK dude to be fair, what the output on your A3? Bear in mind that the S3s have the same rods as you (presuming you're an AGUer) and run more power standard....
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    You also have to put it on the choice of stage1 map also, all this 'low down grunt' with 'push in the back' torque is bad for the rods.



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    DaveA3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    You should be OK dude to be fair, what the output on your A3? Bear in mind that the S3s have the same rods as you (presuming you're an AGUer) and run more power standard....
    185bhp with boost leaks lol should be about 190bhp think it was something like 214 lb/ft torques need to double check that. yeh im on an AGU.

    cheers man thats good to hear :D

    Audi A3 1.8T Sport (AGU) - 2000
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  14. #13
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveA3 View Post
    185bhp with boost leaks lol should be about 190bhp think it was something like 214 lb/ft torques need to double check that. yeh im on an AGU.

    cheers man thats good to hear :D
    You should be A OK mate, I wouldn't lose sleep.
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  15. #14
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    You also have to put it on the choice of stage1 map also, all this 'low down grunt' with 'push in the back' torque is bad for the rods.
    Agreed, finger pointing towards REVO maps here....lol.
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    superkarl's Avatar
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    is a revo map a dangerous one then on standard internals?

  17. #16
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
    is a revo map a dangerous one then on standard internals?
    No, not dangerous. However, REVO maps are known for their aggressive delivery by all. Much less progressive than other maps, and that's due to the torque production. As Jo said, early and harsh torque isn't the best for the rods.

    Many people are using, and have used, REVO maps for a long time with no issues. But out of the generic maps available, I would say they are the most likely to cause issues. That's not to say will.
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    superkarl's Avatar
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    i see what you mean. id want a more progressive map anyway. my car is off the road soon and after the wear and tear stuff i've got to do, rods are my number 1 before i get a map. better safe than sorry

  19. #18
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    People need to stop thinking there engines are going to fall apart any minute lol. Ye rods fall but its a very small minority that do and they tend to be running quite a bit more torque and power than the standard engine spec.

    Im doing a con rod FEA assignment in uni now and wanted to do it on a S3 rod but havent got the dimensions on one to measure accurately.

    Nathan
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    well perhaps if i change my rods because im too scared to go without doing it you could have my OEM rod to do your FEM

  21. #20
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    Lol thats sounds like a good idea to me.

    Nathan
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3 Nattie View Post
    People need to stop thinking there engines are going to fall apart any minute lol. Ye rods fall but its a very small minority that do and they tend to be running quite a bit more torque and power than the standard engine spec.

    Im doing a con rod FEA assignment in uni now and wanted to do it on a S3 rod but havent got the dimensions on one to measure accurately.

    Nathan
    I have some in my garage - what measurements do you want? (or are you meaning you want to test to destruction?)

    Also have some IE and Brute ones if you need a comparison.

  23. #22
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    I would need the following;

    Length from top to bottom
    Width of the rod
    Diameter of the gudgeon pin and bearing but I think I have just found them on the net.
    Distance from the gudgeon pin to the outer side of the rod.
    The radius of the rod stem where it meets the gudgeon pin and the bear
    Diameter of the stem just after the radius's top and bottom
    The radius's, diameters and lengths of the intersect in the rod and how far into the rod it is to get a section view of the rod.
    Would also need the measurement around the bearing but unsure how to describe them.

    Its pretty easy to measure the rod but its then working out what happening within the engine such as cylinder pressure at certain rpm's, air/fuel mass within the cylinders, the acceleration and resistant forces acting on the rod, tension and compression forces, vertical and horizontal force acting on the rod and bending monents/loads etc to get a full understanding of what the rod if being exerted too.

    Im actually doing my final year project on My S3 and might start a thread as it should contain very useful info.

    Does anyone know what the factor of safety is on a S3 rod.

    If I had one I would measure one up myself. I might be able to get one in the from a vag garage I know by me. Mainly have jags and Ford rods in uni.

    Nathan
    Last edited by S3 Nattie; 8th October 2010 at 13:21.
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    finesse's Avatar
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    Nathan, what package are you using for analysis? Ansys, Abacus, Catia, Solidworks?

    I would guess a safety factor of 1.5

  25. #24
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    We have got solidworks but I dont use it, heard its quite user friendly. Were using NX now and I think NX7 is being installed over the weekend, think thats the latest NX verison you can get. NX is very good but like most software, it likes to freeze and run very slowly sometimes.

    Nathan
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  26. #25
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    If I listened to every horror story I'd heard about S3's etc, I'd never have got a remap and would of sold it a long time ago... Lol
    revo'd

  27. #26
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    well you hear the horror stories, and then the cost and pain in the ass of sorting it out. so if you can prevent it, you may aswell. i know i dont want to be buyin new engines. especially when your car has done as many miles as mine. Im over modding for power, i want to increase the longetivity of my car now, because i dont wana sell, so il keep till it proper dies. Rods just come into the equation when prolonging the life of it. its just a bonus that i won't ever need to worry about bending one. unless one day i have a spike of 500lbsft of torque or somethin crazy like that, which will never happen.

  28. #27
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leggy View Post
    If I listened to every horror story I'd heard about S3's etc, I'd never have got a remap and would of sold it a long time ago... Lol
    Lol Im with you there. Everyone on this forum will try there best to give everyone else the best advise as possible and 99% of the time its very good advise. But theres got to come a point where you say its not realistic or cost efficient to do so for YOUR situation.

    Nathan
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  29. #28
    finesse's Avatar
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    NX makes me sick, but it is powerful.

    I have a conrod I modelled here if you want......

  30. #29
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    Lol ye NX is very powerful software and it nearly literally made me sick last year when I was doing some work and it decided it wanted to just randomly freeze and shut off and I never saved any of my work. Good job I have a very understand lecturer.

    You have got a actually working model of a S3 con rod. That would be interesting to have a look at.

    Nathan
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    Not S3, just a generic one I used for analysis and mold and manufacturing in NX

    NX

  32. #31
    Welly's Avatar
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    Look, bottom line, I thought it was useful info for people.

    It doesn't happen to everyone, but it DID happen to me.

    If I can help people avoid the drama and cost that I went through, then I will bloody well try! lol.
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    finesse's Avatar
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    Totally agree, it is a job which should be on every enthusiasts list.

    It's not appealing because it doesn't provide epic 5bhp gain like an air filter or stop better like 8 pot brakes

  34. #33
    Alex C's Avatar
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    how much would you be looking at paying for the rods and fitting?

  35. #34
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    I dont think you will have a lot of change out of a grand with new shells, oil, belt ,gaskets etc.

    I agree with welly, he is not scaremongering, just giving good info that may or may-not be heeded, depending on your application......
    Last edited by s3dave; 8th October 2010 at 17:19.

  36. #35
    finesse's Avatar
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    Audi and VW Forged Connecting Rods

    Plus couple of hours labour

  37. #36
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by finesse View Post
    Audi and VW Forged Connecting Rods

    Plus couple of hours labour
    Not a small job. Rods only really replaceable from the top, meaning head off. Good for those who want new HG and timing belt.... Also, sump off obviously.

    The shells aren't too bad. I used these: Audi 1.8T Big End bearing set Heavy Duty series on eBay (end time 10-Oct-10 14:33:07 BST), however OEM are also fine.
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  38. #37
    Alex C's Avatar
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    thanks guys, im not gonna rush out and do it, but food for thought, cheers Welly!

  39. #38
    S3 Nattie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    Look, bottom line, I thought it was useful info for people.

    It doesn't happen to everyone, but it DID happen to me.

    If I can help people avoid the drama and cost that I went through, then I will bloody well try! lol.
    I agree with you, thats what forums are for, giving members advise to benefit them or fill them in with info.

    Just wondering, what are the torques for the shell.

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  40. #39
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    This is the reason why i wont do anything to the engine.

  41. #40
    Welly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drfeelgood View Post
    This is the reason why i wont do anything to the engine.
    lol, and who could blame you dude. Tits and wheels are nothing but trouble.
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