Big Turbo Power Plots? TD05 or similar?

[aragorn]

Just wondering if anyone has any dyno plots or experiences with big turbo conversions?

I'm looking at engines producing around 300-350hp, hopefully using commonly available turbos like the TD05-16G from the impreza, or similar (ihi vf22 perhaps?), rather than dropping in a brand new garrett unit.

What have you got?

 

[<tuffty/>]

Bill may have some bud... and will have some for the Lupo when finished too thats having a VF34.... my Garrett not good enough for yah??? lol ;P

<tuffty/>

 

[aragorn]

Your garret is too big!

VF34 is expensive, and doesnt appear to like lots of boost all that much. Its also not rebuildable.

TD05-16G seems a lot more sturdy a unit, can be easily rebuilt etc and can be had second hand for reasonable money, as they're fitted to many scoobies, rather than one model for about 6 months like the VF34.

If you've got some VF30/34 plots then those would be a reasonable starting point. From what i can tell the TD05 is slightly bigger though, so i'd liked to have seen some plots from one of those, they seem to be overlooked in the VAG world though.

Cheers
Kev

 

[badger5]

Lupo is receiving my old PE1820 IHI Hybrid, not VF34.. just to confirm.
VF34 on 1.8t on 1.2-1.4bar boost gave 320bhp/280lbft

No personal experience ofTD05, but a few guys over on SCN have used them. (with Jabba, JBS, TigArt IHI type manifolds)

Define expensive!
one of my very old VF34 dyno's

Old Jabba plot

Pe1820

wilko on SCN ran a TD05 I believe

 

[aragorn]

the PE1820 is a bigger turbo than the TD05, so i'd expect its plot to land somewhere between the two in terms of spool time/peak torque etc?

Whats odd from those graphs though, is the VF34 seems to produce less power than the PE1820 low down in the range...

if you take 3000rpm, the jabba PE1820 plot is showing just short of 125hp, whereas the old jabba plot makes around 100 and the emerald plot only makes around 80hp at the same RPM, which is completely at odds with what i'd expect given the PE1820 can flow a lot more than the VF34, you'd expect it to build power much later.

Basically i'm trying to get a feel for how the big turbo will affect the cars drivability. I understand that its power will come in later when compared to a remapped K04 or whatever, but what i'm trying to see is if i'll actually be producing LESS power than a stock engine anywhere in the rev range. I dont mind having to rev it past 4k to get some proper performance, thats just expected, but i dont want to dent the low end performance so much that its actually slower than the stock car when just tootling round.

Hence the dyno chart request. If i get enough data i can overlay it ontop of a stock plot and see how it compares. If you've got any more kicking about that would be great!

As for expensive, well they seem to be pretty rare second hand, and are £850+ new. Whereas i can buy a TD05 for 600 outright, or buy a heaper off ebay and get it reconned for about half that. Or get a half decent used one and just use it as is for peanuts. Spending a grand on a turbo alone just isnt within my financial reach. Spending 300quid on one, and collecting the rest of the bits up over a period of months however, is.

Cheers

 

[badger5]

different dyno's fella.. zero comparisons in terms of loads applied and spool characteristics can be made in that respect

different engines also.. 1900cc on PE, std on VF34

"when tootling around" you aint on boost.
night and day different performance over a k04

you wont be able to make proper judgement on power deliveries from dyno's, let alone different dyno's. I could change the ramp rate and test gear on my dyno and show you as many different plots of the same car just from different settings. Fruitless comparison I fear you are trying to make.

you dont mention anything about all the other parts you need to fit these. manifold? downpipe? intake pipe? coolant lines? oil line and drain? to name but a few.

A customer of mine has an ex-Jabbasport IHI manifold and VF34 he is looking to sell (he's upgrading to GT30 on my tubular manifold) - If you are interested you could get these for reasonable money.. I can send you his contact details if this was of interest. Possible 2 of your items off youer wish list dealt with perhaps.

have a think about it.
I am at bill@badger5.co.uk

 

[<tuffty/>]

Will the mani be any good though bud? Transverse config of the Jabba mani would have the hotside facing forward and I am guessing the IHI flange isn't easy to turn around like a T25/T3 etc?

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

I have no idea what car he is planning, what I have said is transverse application based
given the forum section this is.. vs his signature.. who the **** knows - lol

 

[<tuffty/>]

Ah... thats a point... I know Kev (aragorn) and what car he has LOL... its an A4 mate... its been a long day at the office already!!... lol

I need a holiday....



<tuffty/>

 

[aragorn]

Theres more knowledge in these parts about big turbos, hence the question over here!

Not much in the way of big turbo info in B5 land, bar the odd garrett conversion, and seen it was more about the general end result rather than specific application info then i figured here would be fine!

As for the manifold, your right, its no use, but i can always adapt a KKK manifold or whatever to make it fit. This is all very much in the vapour build/planning stages at the moment, i want to sort the suspension and quite a few other bits on the car before looking at more power.

I hear what your saying about comparing dyno charts, wasnt really thinking about how ramp rate etc would affect how quick the power/boost would build.

I guess what i'm trying to get my head round is how nice its going to be to drive normally. Obviously the power will be there at the top when your going for it, and unlike the k04 it'll pull much harder right up to the redline, which is ideal, but i wouldnt want to ruin the cars day to day drivability.

You say your off boost when tootling around, but i disagree. Maybe when just trundling along at a constant 30mph, but not when your doing any sort of accelleration, even if its just pulling out onto a roundabout or out of a side road, or calmly building speed after joining a faster road etc. The difference between my remapped ecu and stock one was noticable even from the passenger seat when driving around normally. You might not be at full throttle, but the engines under enough load to be on boost and the difference is noticable.

We drove the car around for a month or two with a broken wastegate penny, and it was dog slow, even around town etc. I wouldnt like it to be like that before the turbo spools up and all hell breaks loose at 3500rpm or whatever.

The dyno plots seem to suggest it builds slowly but progressively, rather that being completely dead then having a wall of torque as the turbo spools hard at 4k which you often see on really big turbos. Is that how it feels on the road?

I guess the better question would be, how does the car feel when driving around normally? Do you notice its worse than a stock engine, or is it powerful enough not to cause a problem?

Cheeers

 

[badger5]

you would'nt notice a downside on the VF34 or equivalent.. unless you like driving diesel type power delivery... it will build progressively, and by mid 3krpm its as powerful as you want to make it.. and continues pulling hard right thru the rev range. this is'nt like k0x units which are low to mid range and are poyey then, but do not sustain the torque as the revs climb.

relatively simple adaptor plate onto a stock manifold would allow fitment and has been done on the transverse version I know.

I cant speak for the TD05, but people who have used VF34's and killed them have moved onto TD05 and gained a little more power.. mid to high 300's depending on hotside used I think

when you fit a bigger turbo, you change the engine into one which wants to rev and pull.. but at the small loss of 2krpm shove.. which to be fair is'nt "spirited driving" type rpms is it. It wont do nothing but will build and be fully up bty 3500rpm

 

[homer_s]

i will try put my dyno graph up later, but i have a td05 18g turbo mapped by jabba and i get full boost by around 3100 rpm in 3rd gear or higher. The best way i can explain it is if you give it full load at say 2000rpm the boost gauge will be at zero then slowly get up to 12 psi upto 3000rpm then boost gauge will fly round to 24psi and hold that untill red line

 

[Mpathe]

homer_s
which car did the turbo come off an evo or subaru as they set out differently and did you get a manifold made or just bought one. thanks mike

 

[homer_s]

homer_s
which car did the turbo come off an evo or subaru as they set out differently and did you get a manifold made or just bought one. thanks mike

im not 100% sure what the turbo is originally for but i think evo?? its the same fitment/flanges as an ihi vf34. my mani is the same as this http://www.tig-art.com/inc/sdetail/897

 

[Barks]

Homer_S, It would be great to see a dyno plot, or any facts and figures as I have been toying with the idea of a Blouch TD05-18G for a while, after reading http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=48593&pagenumber=

A quick question to anyone that knows... TD05-18G has either a 7 or 8 cm housing, what they refering too and which is best?? and is the Scooby Clinic SC38 (18G) the same http://www.scoobyclinic.com/shop_engine.htm#billet

Thanks

 

[aragorn]

the 7/8cm is the size of the exhaust housing and is analogous with what garret would call A/R Ratio. Bigger housing means slower spool but better flow.

If its the same fitment as the VF34 its from a scooby, as that flange is specific to subaru. The Evo turbos are twin scroll and have a completely different 4 bolt flange.

The Evo turbos are also much larger. They use a 9.8 or 10.8 exhaust housing, and a big compressor. The 10.8 housing turbos will do 400hp.

I'd aim to use a scooby one, as it has a smaller exhaust housing (7cm) and a smaller compressor (60mm rather than 68), thats still good for 340-350hp. They're fitted as standard to earlier scoobys, although they do have a 90degree elbow on the inlet which would need hacking about (or the housing changed)

the 18G isnt a stock turbo, its a bit of a hybrid so its specs will vary a bit. "18G" specifies the size of the compressor wheel, although its a bit confusing as the Evo and Scooby turbos are both 16G's even though the vary wildly in size.

I quite like the sound of how homer describes it coming on power. The fact it can make 12psi by 3k sounds fine, i spent some time paying attention to where in the revs you tend to want to feed power in when driving briskly but normally, (ie not like a granny, but not balls out race mode either) and 3k sounds nice.

Cheers
Kev

 

[badger5]

p18 housing on vf34's, p20 on vf22's - not a lot in it tho side by side

 

[Barks]

Cheers for the info look like this is the beasty to have http://www.rallysportdirect.com/static/blouch-wrxsti-td05h18g-p-3379.html as it is also ported. Doesn't mention the exhuast housing size??

Like aragon say if the turbo has low lag and pulls to red line then thats pretty much perfect in my eyes, there seems to be some praise for the blouch 18g item on the scooby forums and it must give a bit more grunt than the standard item, is any one aware of any uk dealers??

 

[Barks]

Some good gen http://www.surreyscoobies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18027