POWER RUN AFTER STAGE 2 COMPLETION

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shanejess

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my 2003 s3 has a neuspeed aircone and heatsheild, a 3inch downpipe and decat by pipewerx and the standard cat back, ive had the NEW apr stage 2 remap the one origionally for the leon cupra R done at half price on awesome gti open day a few weeks ago anywayyyyy. figures are 264bhp and 336lbft, i am pleased with the results especially that on the open rd the car feels very strong and brilliant to drive.
 
Wow how did you get the torque that high! one i got mapped with a mate on a stage 1 had bhp and torque at pretty much same peak (around 235)
 
Yes, I will wait until bill or tufty post but... i would be worried about the clutch and rods .
It will feel very lively with all that torque
 
Paul, you changed you number mate? Dropped you a text earlier.
 
That must slam you in your seat! pretty amazing considering i was led to believe stage 2 doesnt produce an amazing difference to stage one
 
I'm not surprised with those figures, driving yours and Daves, the APR map is very strong but smooth at the same time lol
 
I personally think its not possible hitting that amount of torque with a K04
 
s3dave said:
apr software produces huge torque on stage 2 :rock:
Click to expand...

bring it down, see if it does on my dyno
apr run a shed load of timing on the cars i have logged.. cf's >6
not my bag

would be interesting to see one on my dyno as a comparison... not seen any k04 based turbo make much more than 300lbft yet
 
nope we've seen plenty claim...none have proven it

Awesome's rollers are amazingly kind - its a wonder they still get customers using them with their reputation :)
 
i had 312 lb/ft torque on AMD rr but when using vagcom only managed a peak of 260 lb/ft so im susspect of rr after bill's rollers seem to have very similar figures to what vagcom give out.
from my recent logs using my mbc seems the more boost the more torque you can achive so im guessing you have high boost aswel as timming pull as bill has already said about?? my car was boosting 25 psi initially after my remapp at AMD guess thats how the torque was so high..
 
shanejess said:
my 2003 s3 has a neuspeed aircone and heatsheild, a 3inch downpipe and decat by pipewerx and the standard cat back, ive had the NEW apr stage 2 remap the one origionally for the leon cupra R done at half price on awesome gti open day a few weeks ago anywayyyyy. figures are 264bhp and 336lbft, i am pleased with the results especially that on the open rd the car feels very strong and brilliant to drive.
Click to expand...
as you can see not many APR fans here.....well done with it anyway, did you get the switchable maps?
 
1animal1 said:
Awesome's rollers are amazingly kind - its a wonder they still get customers using them with their reputation :)
Click to expand...

I think that is a bit of an unfair statement, have you been? rolling road maybe happy like most are, but there service is second to none...
if you look at his hp it is more than believable so why would they "up" the torque ?
this new map that hes just had done, as made better use of the vvt and as shown cracking results with the cupras
 
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s3dave said:
as you can see not many APR fans here.....well done with it anyway, did you get the switchable maps?
Click to expand...

im not being anti APR probably is a very good, im just dubious of the final rr result... i hated my AMD mapp due to over boost on intial mapp which was throwing up similar figures of the APR above but now i have sorted my issues recently the car is now as powerfull as ever even with lower figures as worked out on vagcom, only real way of testing is going for dyno lottery on AMD rr again i guess...

to op
when was the map done on the day of the rr or was it just a rr you went there for???
 
The map was put on when Awesome had the Detailed show on the 1st Aug, Shane had an AMD Stage1 map before the APR went on and i think it was close to 300lbs then, the AMD map was nice but it felt like the boost came in early then died off as it got nearer 5000rpm, the APR seems to pull a lot stronger and feels as though it using the whole rev range
 
sandip said:
The map was put on when Awesome had the Detailed show on the 1st Aug, Shane had an AMD Stage1 map before the APR went on and i think it was close to 300lbs then, the AMD map was nice but it felt like the boost came in early then died off as it got nearer 5000rpm, the APR seems to pull a lot stronger and feels as though it using the whole rev range
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be interesting to get mine re rr then as mine is now holding 20psi to redline with the mbc might be able to get the mapp tweeked??
 
badger5 said:
bring it down, see if it does on my dyno
apr run a shed load of timing on the cars i have logged.. cf's >6
not my bag

would be interesting to see one on my dyno as a comparison... not seen any k04 based turbo make much more than 300lbft yet
Click to expand...
Does what? APR are every big tuning house....worldwide, not some fly by nights, so with all respect, i think they will no a thing or two about it, and like said made a breakthrough with the stage 2 on the cupras http://www.goapr.com/company/
 
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s3dave said:
I think that is a bit of an unfair statement, have you been? rolling road maybe happy like most are, but there service is second to none...
if you look at his hp it is more than believable so why would they "up" the torque ?
this new map that hes just had done, as made better use of the vvt and as shown cracking results with the cupras
Click to expand...

no offence Dave but you really are missing the point, yes i have been and experienced Awesome top service...but it is a simple fact that their rollers are extremely economical with the truth when compared with most companies...this isnt me having a go, it is indeed FACT

I am no APR hater but the figures you are seeing here are fiction based on lots more accurate testing that has been carried out by what are highly regarded 'better rollers' in the market place.....

APR like Revo are extremely large, but in my experience larger companies like these tend to air on the side of caution, they are large because they dont tread too close to the line in terms of reliability....so to see rod busting torque figures like these, you kind of have to ask yourself question.

I know you aint daft.... but if you visit K&N's site it probably tells you their panel filter will give you 5+ bhp, now tell me thats true...yet K&N are massive :)
 
1animal1 said:
no offence Dave but you really are missing the point, yes i have been and experienced Awesome top service...but it is a simple fact that their rollers are extremely economical with the truth when compared with most companies...this isnt me having a go, it is indeed FACT

I am no APR hater but the figures you are seeing here are fiction based on lots more accurate testing that has been carried out by what are highly regarded 'better rollers' in the market place.....

APR like Revo are extremely large, but in my experience larger companies like these tend to air on the side of caution, they are large because they dont tread too close to the line in terms of reliability....so to see rod busting torque figures like these, you kind of have to ask yourself question.

I know you aint daft.... but if you visit K&N's site it probably tells you their panel filter will give you 5+ bhp, now tell me thats true...yet K&N are massive :)
Click to expand...
lol k&n did well because it was one of very few that did them back in the day, until people started testing them with the computer age.
i dont think apr would have got where they are buy treading carefully, tuning houses need to constantly develop to get the respect and trust, not just from joe bloggs but the racing scene, and if that means pushing the engines they will, i think most have a clause in the paperwork saying they are not liable for engines vapourising unless it was a direct fault in the map
I did not say anyone was a apr hater, i said not many fans, dont forget apr remaps are not cheap, i think mine was £600 + for stage 1 a few years ago
we all know about the dyno lottery, but what suprises me with the OP figures is the hp is very believable so why would the torque be miles out?
dont want to argue with anybody but the OP as prob just spent a fortune to be told its a load of crap...(not in them words...lol) some, just judging by past posts etc
 
s3dave said:
Does what? APR are every big tuning house....worldwide, not some fly by nights, so with all respect, i think they will no a thing or two about it, and like said made a breakthrough with the stage 2 on the cupras http://www.goapr.com/company/
Click to expand...


...and with due respect mate Bill is not a fly by night either and also knows his stuff... been in the game a very long time and has experience of pretty much all the major tuners in the UK....

As for a breakthrough, using the VVT in a map isn't really a breakthrough... the option has been available on standalone ECU's for a while, Custom Code use it in their VVT Attack software and one of the most powerful 1.8t based engines (in a Mk2 Golf) uses it to aid spool of a very large turbo....

336ftlbs of torque is very high for a K04 but I would imagine that figure is at the top of a very large spike and certainly not available through most if any of the rev range... be interesting to see the graph for that...

People go on about peak figures all the time... 300bhp and over 300ftlbs sounds great down the pub but if you actually analysed how its delivered you may actually find you only have those figures for 1000rpm max and the rest of the time its a 250ftlbs engine....

<tuffty/>
 
voorhees said:
I personally think its not possible hitting that amount of torque with a K04
Click to expand...

We've seen plenty of cars hit above and beyond that level of torque on the KO4's, Around 5 or 6 of the guys on the TT-Forum.

badger5 said:
bring it down, see if it does on my dyno

would be interesting to see one on my dyno as a comparison... not seen any k04 based turbo make much more than 300lbft yet
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to see as well! Like I say, we've had plenty of our customers with the APR KO4 Software on other peoples rollers hitting the right figures.

1animal1 said:
nope we've seen plenty claim...none have proven it

Awesome's rollers are amazingly kind - its a wonder they still get customers using them with their reputation :)
Click to expand...

I find that a bit of a far fetched comment... I'm not sure where you've heard about our 'Reputation' unless it's come from customers going straight to the forums when they have an issue, rather than contacting us and giving us the chance to solve any issues before they go any further?


sandip said:
Rolling road day at Bills would put all are minds at rest :)
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Sounds like a Plan Sandip! I'll speak with John in the workshop to see if he's willing to do the mileage for a road trip/rolling road day down to Bill's place! He runs an APR Stage 2+ LCR.

1animal1 said:
but it is a simple fact that their rollers are extremely economical with the truth when compared with most companies...this isnt me having a go, it is indeed FACT
Click to expand...

If that's fact, then why is It I'm constantly bombarded with 'p*ssed off' Skyline/Cosworth owners on rolling road days telling me that their car is putting our 100bhp more than our rolling road has told them it is doing? I'm not gonna say our rolling road is 100% Accurate, but then show me a rolling road that is??? I took my Front wheel drive generic VAG car (bora) to another tuner for a rolling road session and their rollers showed an amazing 29bhp loss between wheels and Transmission... I know, and I'm sure that ain't right for a 185bhp car... Considering it normally only sees around 10bhp transmission losses.

Rolling road power results should be taken with a pinch of salt. You're never going to see a perfect figure of what your car is doing. Especially since when you drive on the road, You don't load up at 1500rpm in fourth and take it all the way to the Redline! :laugh: or at least I hope you don't!

Dansmith said:
Its funny every time there seems to be an argument on this forum it seems to have the same person involved... :unsure:
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If forums didn't exist where would people argue? Imagine how many bar brawls there would be :ermm:

tufftybloke said:
People go on about peak figures all the time... 300bhp and over 300ftlbs sounds great down the pub but if you actually analysed how its delivered you may actually find you only have those figures for 1000rpm max and the rest of the time its a 250ftlbs engine....
Click to expand...

You are exactly right!

Too many people make the mistake of looking at the 'Numbers' rather than looking at the curves!

**Edit**

Just found out Shane didn't even have his Rolling Road power run done here at Awesome.
 
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s3dave said:
did i say bill was a fly by night? ...no, please read the post carefully.....i know bill knows the game very well..and have all respect for that.
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Not directly mate no but within the context of the quoted reply of your post it could be misunderstood as such... anyway, do not want to get into a crappy debate about it... thats the trouble with reading forum posts when you are tired lol...

<tuffty/>
 
s3dave said:
Does what? APR are every big tuning house....worldwide, not some fly by nights, so with all respect, i think they will no a thing or two about it, and like said made a breakthrough with the stage 2 on the cupras http://www.goapr.com/company/
Click to expand...

APr not fly by nights of course not... however....
log the timing and fueling and see the 0.75 fueling and CF's >6 - its there - All stg2 have been the same in this respect


This is'nt a dig at APR, they do good work, BUT, in the context of my post you have quoted back at me, I have yet to see a k04 car (of anyones tune) make >300lbft on my rollers, hence the offer, bring it down and run it.. I am genuinely interested to gather info on what these cars actually do vs what others "say/claim" they do. If they make >300lbft, brilliant, subject to the worry about rods of course.
 
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s3dave said:
lol k&n did well because it was one of very few that did them back in the day, until people started testing them with the computer age.
i dont think apr would have got where they are buy treading carefully, tuning houses need to constantly develop to get the respect and trust, not just from joe bloggs but the racing scene, and if that means pushing the engines they will, i think most have a clause in the paperwork saying they are not liable for engines vapourising unless it was a direct fault in the map
I did not say anyone was a apr hater, i said not many fans, dont forget apr remaps are not cheap, i think mine was £600 + for stage 1 a few years ago
we all know about the dyno lottery, but what suprises me with the OP figures is the hp is very believable so why would the torque be miles out?
dont want to argue with anybody but the OP as prob just spent a fortune to be told its a load of crap...(not in them words...lol) some, just judging by past posts etc
Click to expand...

are you seriously telling me they are great because of what they used to charge? please tell me you aren't that deluded. And how can you cross compare their generic maps with that of the race teams? seriously Dave you need a reality check fella....if you think their stage 1 or 2 for that matter doesnt have parameters which limit the franchisee then you need to get to a beach and bury your head in shame......you sound like you've been 'sold' so i'll leave it there - somebody may tell you later in life that being open minded is a part of growing up, your choice if you choose to listen.

Awesome - i am actually impressed that you have responded, not many tuners stick their necks out...... i'm sure you will completely understand that opinions are formed based upon the facts in front of you and historically your runs (on Audi-Sport) always seem to be much more generous than the next tuner, the last RR day i went to at Prodrive in Manc, there were a few there who had the same unprompted opinion.... if that isnt true then i apologise but as you know, bad news travels faster than good news and in this instance it isnt currently in your favour
 
AwesomeAl said:
Sounds like a Plan Sandip! I'll speak with John in the workshop to see if he's willing to do the mileage for a road trip/rolling road day down to Bill's place! He runs an APR Stage 2+ LCR.
Click to expand...

I am up for this.. Great idea.. to correlate/compare rollers on same car.

AwesomeAl said:
I took my Front wheel drive generic VAG car (bora) to another tuner for a rolling road session and their rollers showed an amazing 29bhp loss between wheels and Transmission... I know, and I'm sure that ain't right for a 185bhp car... Considering it normally only sees around 10bhp transmission losses.
Click to expand...

you of course comparing single large inertia roller with a twin roller? where rolling resistance sat in 2 rollers is higher drag, but both during power and coastdown, so the atw measurement + losses does equate to the same number. The losses on your dynojet cant compare to twin rollers, so that comparison is'nt valid to me.

An example of a test car, which is known to be consistent, honda vtech, book figures of 225ps/150lbft
DynoIT%20-%20RX08KMK.pdfhonda-type-r-1.jpg



Another comparison of K04-revo stage 1 S3, Hybrid CRk04 B5 stage 3 audi S3, LCR GT30 stage 3 B5 - so losses etc, torques etc can be seen
dyno-s3-s3hybrid-lcrgt30.jpg



and for good measure to keep this light hearted of course.
dyno-lottery.jpg
 
tufftybloke said:
Humm... maybe I should organise a dyno day for 8L's at Bill's :)

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...


Erm...HELLO ! i mentioned this awhile back but neither you or bill took the idea up.
I would be more than up for it.
See how "happy " JBS rollers are
 
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